Audi R8 as alternative to 991 GT3
03-23-2013, 09:43 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Audi R8 as alternative to 991 GT3
Yesterday I got to drive both 2014 R8 models on the track at 7-8/10s, lead-follow, and on an impromptu autocross course. Both had paddle shift double clutch boxes. Very impressive although perhaps heavy and a little filtered. The 4.2 liter V8 seemed a little breathless at speed but the V10 pulled like crazy. A possible alternative?
03-23-2013, 11:49 AM
#2
Burning Brakes
no because the awd audi does not have the steering feel of gt3. plus the v8 doesnt have enough power for the heavy audi and the v10 is as much about torque as it is revs.
looks great and is more exclusive though. a good alternative to the turbo
looks great and is more exclusive though. a good alternative to the turbo
Last edited by 95spiderman; 03-23-2013 at 12:55 PM.
03-23-2013, 12:03 PM
#3
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I have a R8 V8 albeit not the dual clutch.
Cons
Too heavy
4 wheel drive
Not enough power
Understeers
Pros
Sounds great
Looks like an exotic
Selling it tomorrow for the 991 GT3 arriving in September
Cons
Too heavy
4 wheel drive
Not enough power
Understeers
Pros
Sounds great
Looks like an exotic
Selling it tomorrow for the 991 GT3 arriving in September
03-23-2013, 11:31 PM
#4
Not really an alternative to a GT3 unless you are looking at the R8 GT. What is interesting is that the 991 C2S/C4S are so much more expensive that their predecessors, that the R8 is now a very viable alternative. With the 997.2, an R8 was a lot more. Typical R8 V8 stickers were matching stickers of GT3s while C2S stickers were $20K less. Now that a typical dealer build 991 C4S has a sticker higher than a loaded R8, it is a very viable alternative.
What's wrong with this picture?
What's wrong with this picture?
03-24-2013, 01:09 AM
#5
On the subject of R8's!
Yesterday I got to drive both 2014 R8 models on the track at 7-8/10s, lead-follow, and on an impromptu autocross course. Both had paddle shift double clutch boxes. Very impressive although perhaps heavy and a little filtered. The 4.2 liter V8 seemed a little breathless at speed but the V10 pulled like crazy.
The GT still understeers a lot! Brakes and electronic Limited Slip Differential (EDL) are suspect for extended track work. Notice the 'brake hopping' Randy mentions as he approaches turn One. Sure looks good, though! The new '14 v10 Plus model with S-Tronic might be the best R8 for the track right now...until they come up with a revised GT!
What is interesting is that the 991 C2S/C4S are so much more expensive that their predecessors, that the R8 is now a very viable alternative. With the 997.2, an R8 was a lot more. Typical R8 V8 stickers were matching stickers of GT3s while C2S stickers were $20K less. Now that a typical dealer build 991 C4S has a sticker higher than a loaded R8, it is a very viable alternative.
http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/e...xperience.html
I personally don't think the R8 will entice many gt3 owners to make the change for dedicated track use. The weight is a disadvantage. The standard brakes & pads might disappoint. It might need a cooling rest after extended laps at the track. Audi offers no 'sport bucket seat' in the US to date, which is a subject dear to our hearts on this forum.
But perhaps most importantly, there are very few R8 owners that risk their vehicles at the track! So your circle of experienced R8 track driving friends & forum participants will be extremely limited! Do not underestimate the appeal & VALUE of belonging to the greater Porsche driver 'fraternity'! It has legions of dedicated & knowledgeable members that will share in forums such as Rennlist their experiences, defects in product design, suggested improvements & modifications, etc! It is probably one of the most important aspect of our Porsche hobby which is often overlooked when making a decision as to which car to purchase for recreational track use (not racing)! So Caveat Emptor!
In my opinion, the R8 is an extremely nice sportcar for the 'street' with a very nice 'ride'! They look fantastic both in coupe & cabriolet form. I am extremely happy with my '11 R8 v8 Spyder with a manual transmission (attached photo). But I don't plan to take it anytime soon to the track!
Here is a review of the revised MY2014 models that will give you an overview of the changes:
Saludos,
Eduardo
03-24-2013, 02:00 AM
#7
Nordschleife Master
i got on the V10 when it came out and liked my 997.2 better, and my 991 was lightyears better as far as driver feel.
the v10 had little feedback and felt very sluggish but had loads of tq..
i would vote 991 for the chassis alone, but GT3 991 obviously havent driven but i can;t even imagien how 475hp will feel on that amazing chassis.. technology has significantly improved since the 997 and R8 chassis was debut'd... the 958 cayenne proved what could be done and the 991 took all those advancements to the next level..
the v10 had little feedback and felt very sluggish but had loads of tq..
i would vote 991 for the chassis alone, but GT3 991 obviously havent driven but i can;t even imagien how 475hp will feel on that amazing chassis.. technology has significantly improved since the 997 and R8 chassis was debut'd... the 958 cayenne proved what could be done and the 991 took all those advancements to the next level..
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03-24-2013, 05:27 AM
#9
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I am biased but I think the alternative to a GT3 would be a used McLaren 12c. You can get a screaming deal on very low mileage used car. Truly a driver's car. Awesome driving position, super fast, and very nice driving feel.
No bucket seats or harness bar in the US cars though.
No bucket seats or harness bar in the US cars though.
03-24-2013, 07:52 AM
#10
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Just a few thoughts having owned/tracked all versions of the R8 and currently in possession of the R8GT and a GT3RS:
R8s are one of the easiest cars to track but they do have shortcomings-
1. Must have ceramic option or brake fade/ rotor wear becomes problematic.
2. The understeer discussed here can be fully neutralized by adjusting tire pressures. The MT article had to run at manufacturer settings. Since the GT has more camber, I believe Audi increased the GT pressures above the V10 to help reduce outer tire wear during street use.
3. Very limited options for roll bar installation. GMG makes one but it this is not a simple bolt-on affair. Seemingly, the 991 GT3 isn't making life much easier for us anymore either since sport-bucket seats aren't available.
4. I agree with the comments on steering feel. Very few cars are on the level of the 997s though. The jury still is out on the 991 GT3 setup.
5. Cooling has not been a problem.
Bottom-line: As a dedicated track car the GT3 is better overall though not by much. If seeing mixed track use, I'd favor the R8 V10.
R8s are one of the easiest cars to track but they do have shortcomings-
1. Must have ceramic option or brake fade/ rotor wear becomes problematic.
2. The understeer discussed here can be fully neutralized by adjusting tire pressures. The MT article had to run at manufacturer settings. Since the GT has more camber, I believe Audi increased the GT pressures above the V10 to help reduce outer tire wear during street use.
3. Very limited options for roll bar installation. GMG makes one but it this is not a simple bolt-on affair. Seemingly, the 991 GT3 isn't making life much easier for us anymore either since sport-bucket seats aren't available.
4. I agree with the comments on steering feel. Very few cars are on the level of the 997s though. The jury still is out on the 991 GT3 setup.
5. Cooling has not been a problem.
Bottom-line: As a dedicated track car the GT3 is better overall though not by much. If seeing mixed track use, I'd favor the R8 V10.
03-24-2013, 10:43 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Eduardo - I drove the cars at an Audi event at New Jersey Motorsports Park (NJMP) on the Lightning track. I'm sure it's the same road show which will arrive in Cali in due course.
Eric, I recalled that you had multiple versions of both the R8 and the GT3 and was interested in your feedback. Two things about which I am unclear - the R8 V10's weight and it's actual cost.
Eric, I recalled that you had multiple versions of both the R8 and the GT3 and was interested in your feedback. Two things about which I am unclear - the R8 V10's weight and it's actual cost.
03-24-2013, 11:02 AM
#12
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Just a few notes in my experience compare to you're emayer. though i can only comment on the V8.
1. Must have ceramic option or brake fade/ rotor wear becomes problematic.
this I agree with
2. The understeer discussed here can be fully neutralized by adjusting tire pressures. The MT article had to run at manufacturer settings. Since the GT has more camber, I believe Audi increased the GT pressures above the V10 to help reduce outer tire wear during street use.
I disagree to some extent with this. I played around with the pressures a lot and no matter what i did, there was still noticeable understeer compared to Porsches albeit much less than if you just kept the pressures stock
3. Very limited options for roll bar installation. GMG makes one but it this is not a simple bolt-on affair. Seemingly, the 991 GT3 isn't making life much easier for us anymore either since sport-bucket seats aren't available.
True in your case but here buckets seats can be had as an option
4. I agree with the comments on steering feel. Very few cars are on the level of the 997s though. The jury still is out on the 991 GT3 setup.
compared to a 991 CS if found the R8 has definitely less feel and if what they say is true ( and i'm inclined to believe) the Gt3 will be better
5. Cooling has not been a problem.
This was the biggest problem for me by far. the R8 was a 4 to 5 lap car for me, 1 lap to warm up 2 to 3 laps of pushing and the last to cooldown. by the last lap the engine oil was at redline and this was in the winter with very cool temperatures and usually at night track days. I use the mobil1 oil recommended by the dealer( same oil used in all porsches here) and still would overheat way to quick.
again just my experience
1. Must have ceramic option or brake fade/ rotor wear becomes problematic.
this I agree with
2. The understeer discussed here can be fully neutralized by adjusting tire pressures. The MT article had to run at manufacturer settings. Since the GT has more camber, I believe Audi increased the GT pressures above the V10 to help reduce outer tire wear during street use.
I disagree to some extent with this. I played around with the pressures a lot and no matter what i did, there was still noticeable understeer compared to Porsches albeit much less than if you just kept the pressures stock
3. Very limited options for roll bar installation. GMG makes one but it this is not a simple bolt-on affair. Seemingly, the 991 GT3 isn't making life much easier for us anymore either since sport-bucket seats aren't available.
True in your case but here buckets seats can be had as an option
4. I agree with the comments on steering feel. Very few cars are on the level of the 997s though. The jury still is out on the 991 GT3 setup.
compared to a 991 CS if found the R8 has definitely less feel and if what they say is true ( and i'm inclined to believe) the Gt3 will be better
5. Cooling has not been a problem.
This was the biggest problem for me by far. the R8 was a 4 to 5 lap car for me, 1 lap to warm up 2 to 3 laps of pushing and the last to cooldown. by the last lap the engine oil was at redline and this was in the winter with very cool temperatures and usually at night track days. I use the mobil1 oil recommended by the dealer( same oil used in all porsches here) and still would overheat way to quick.
again just my experience
03-24-2013, 12:19 PM
#13
Had a 2008 Gallardo for 31 days... if it can be compared with a R8, it was the worst high end car i ever owned. Didn't last 15 laps at Sebring....
For street use wasn't bad, soft, sluggish, great interior, sound and that's it. Oh also slower in straight line if compared to my RS.
Came back from Sebring, washed, oil change and directly back to the dealer.
Bottom line is there isn't a car that you can buy yet that does what Porsche does, and last, with feeling etc ...
Also what are the prices of those cars again ????
For street use wasn't bad, soft, sluggish, great interior, sound and that's it. Oh also slower in straight line if compared to my RS.
Came back from Sebring, washed, oil change and directly back to the dealer.
Bottom line is there isn't a car that you can buy yet that does what Porsche does, and last, with feeling etc ...
Also what are the prices of those cars again ????
03-25-2013, 09:10 AM
#14
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Terry:
I thought perhaps it was you! If we can chat offline sometime I'd be glad to give you some seat time in the R8 at one of the DEs. Always a tough decision as to which car to bring...
I believe the V10s run in the 170s nowadays. Figure a 20-30k premium over a reasonably optioned 991 GT3. Resale value on these has actually been quite good. I'll check on exact numbers but I believe they run 3400-3500 lbs. Definitely the Achille's heel in respect to tire/ brake wear and feel compared to the GT3. The upshot is that the platform is so stable one can confidently carry ridiculous cornering speeds in areas where I'd be more cautious with the RS.
Arth:
I've run these cars very hard in the Northeast (high temp and humidity) and have not encountered redline oil temps. You may want this looked at more closely. I did have a solenoid stay stuck open once on an earlier V10 which of course would have had the opposite effect you encountered.
Other comments:
A limiting issue during long sessions has been tire fade out while on stock rubber. No problem so far with R888s. The other goofy thing is that the inner wheel linings tend to be damaged by tire boogers. It's a cheap replacement item much like chin spoilers on the GT3s.
Keep in mind there will be some element of understeer and steering feel loss due to the AWD system. With proper pressures it really is well negated and can be powered through (with the V10). The V8 version feels nimbler in tight transitions but is down on power for such a capable platform.
No doubt the 991 GT3 is going to be phenomenal but by the same token, I have this nagging feeling the current US spec version is moving more toward a daily streetable car rather than the raw track animal we are accustomed to. I've driven the other vehicles mentioned in the thread, but the reality for me is that the RS has been the most driver-connected, visceral machine out there. Of course the compromise is that I won't roll up to a restaurant in it!
I thought perhaps it was you! If we can chat offline sometime I'd be glad to give you some seat time in the R8 at one of the DEs. Always a tough decision as to which car to bring...
I believe the V10s run in the 170s nowadays. Figure a 20-30k premium over a reasonably optioned 991 GT3. Resale value on these has actually been quite good. I'll check on exact numbers but I believe they run 3400-3500 lbs. Definitely the Achille's heel in respect to tire/ brake wear and feel compared to the GT3. The upshot is that the platform is so stable one can confidently carry ridiculous cornering speeds in areas where I'd be more cautious with the RS.
Arth:
I've run these cars very hard in the Northeast (high temp and humidity) and have not encountered redline oil temps. You may want this looked at more closely. I did have a solenoid stay stuck open once on an earlier V10 which of course would have had the opposite effect you encountered.
Other comments:
A limiting issue during long sessions has been tire fade out while on stock rubber. No problem so far with R888s. The other goofy thing is that the inner wheel linings tend to be damaged by tire boogers. It's a cheap replacement item much like chin spoilers on the GT3s.
Keep in mind there will be some element of understeer and steering feel loss due to the AWD system. With proper pressures it really is well negated and can be powered through (with the V10). The V8 version feels nimbler in tight transitions but is down on power for such a capable platform.
No doubt the 991 GT3 is going to be phenomenal but by the same token, I have this nagging feeling the current US spec version is moving more toward a daily streetable car rather than the raw track animal we are accustomed to. I've driven the other vehicles mentioned in the thread, but the reality for me is that the RS has been the most driver-connected, visceral machine out there. Of course the compromise is that I won't roll up to a restaurant in it!
03-25-2013, 12:29 PM
#15
Resale values on R8's
Eric: Very good & valid points you are making above re: your personal experience with R8's at the track! I wish there were more of you tracking R8's & sharing all of that practical knowledge at R8 forums . But I have a disagreement with you on the following point you have made:
That's past history. The present discounting on left-over MY2012 R8's has changed that 'Camelot' world of high residual values! Current 'massive' discounting will have a severe trickled-down negative effect on the prices for all 'used' 2008/2012 R8's in the foreseeable future! The R8's have finally joined the harsh depreciation curves that other expensive vehicles - including Porsche gt3's - have been experiencing for a very long time!
http://www.r8talk.com/forums/5-gener...gins-wait.html
http://www.r8talk.com/forums/5-gener...nt-offers.html
http://teamspeed.com/forums/performa...013-r8-us.html
Saludos,
Eduardo
http://www.r8talk.com/forums/5-gener...gins-wait.html
http://www.r8talk.com/forums/5-gener...nt-offers.html
http://teamspeed.com/forums/performa...013-r8-us.html
Saludos,
Eduardo