Projected Hockenheim Lap time
03-22-2013, 03:48 PM
#31
Everything is down to tires. The MP4-12C comes with really bad tires (Pirelli Corsa System), these Pirelli are garbage, I had them twice (996 GT3 and Scuderia), they stink. My RE11 (a full street tire) produce better grip than the Corsa System.
Slap a set of Pirelli Trofeo on as stock 996 GT3, and the 7:54 Nurburgring car would be running in the 7:30s.
Put both cars (mp4-12c and wannabe-GT3) on the same tires: hoosiers, slicks, Trofeo, the MP4 will put a smack down on the wannabe-GT3. Wanna bet?
Slap a set of Pirelli Trofeo on as stock 996 GT3, and the 7:54 Nurburgring car would be running in the 7:30s.
Put both cars (mp4-12c and wannabe-GT3) on the same tires: hoosiers, slicks, Trofeo, the MP4 will put a smack down on the wannabe-GT3. Wanna bet?
You're right about tires. To take your analogy further, I bet if you put a 996gt3 on slicks it would go even faster
one thing you are right about is the shifter. I tried the 16M recently and there is such a thing as bliss in a paddle shift...
03-22-2013, 03:51 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
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Pretty big claim. The 991 has a faster shifter, more power, better chassis, better tech. The 997 is an older car and has... lower weight. Much as the 991 doesn't excite me and much as I love the .2RS, it will be soundly eclipsed, regardless of tire.
Edit. The 997.1 suffered from PASM. The factory suspension left a LOT to be desired. A fundamental weakness in the car. Doubt Porsche will repeat the mistake.
Edit. The 997.1 suffered from PASM. The factory suspension left a LOT to be desired. A fundamental weakness in the car. Doubt Porsche will repeat the mistake.
Since everybody was talking about sport auto..so..the average difference between Porsche factory claims and their real time results are mostly between 4-6 seconds. So if Porsche claims for a example a 7:28..the test will very likely reveal a 7:32-7:34..the 997.2 GT3RS was tested from sport auto with 7:33..and I would look very closely on the 991 GT3 wet times..not that it has some tires that completely give up when they see a drop of rain.
By the way I think the Mclaren 4-12 was tested with 7:27 or 7:28.dont remember..but one thing is for sure...the 991 GT3 base will not be on par with MP-4-12..no way...its my guess and belief. We will see.
03-22-2013, 04:05 PM
#33
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I wish something like this was available a couple of years ago. My 08 M3 Coupe (with DCT) was the slowest of all these dual-clutch transmission I have driven. The main reason I got rid of the car was that I could not handle the lag anymore, especially on braking and downshift (it would take up to 2 secs to get from 3rd to 2nd on hard braking). I loved everything else about the car, to the point of likely getting another one (with a 6-speed manual of course).
03-22-2013, 04:08 PM
#34
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03-22-2013, 04:12 PM
#35
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Nope, haven't driven a tuned DSG yet.
I wish something like this was available a couple of years ago. My 08 M3 Coupe (with DCT) was the slowest of all these dual-clutch transmission I have driven. The main reason I got rid of the car was that I could not handle the lag anymore, especially on braking and downshift (it would take up to 2 secs to get from 3rd to 2nd on hard braking). I loved everything else about the car, to the point of likely getting another one (with a 6-speed manual of course).
I wish something like this was available a couple of years ago. My 08 M3 Coupe (with DCT) was the slowest of all these dual-clutch transmission I have driven. The main reason I got rid of the car was that I could not handle the lag anymore, especially on braking and downshift (it would take up to 2 secs to get from 3rd to 2nd on hard braking). I loved everything else about the car, to the point of likely getting another one (with a 6-speed manual of course).
Mike
03-22-2013, 04:28 PM
#36
03-22-2013, 06:11 PM
#38
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Come on!
You're arguing that Sport Auto, one of the few respected auto magazines and recognized for their lap time testing, is just plain wrong, and not a little wrong, but wrong by what would require most of a full second over a one minute lap for the 12C to be appreciably faster than the GT3.
If there's the influence of hopium, it's blurring the vision of anyone suggesting the old Ferrari hot rod is in the quick draw in this shoot out.
Anyway, the 430 Scuderia was not tested without Ferrari giving it the steroid treatment and being hand prepped for the media. Let's not revisit the "what it takes to make a Scuderia track well" thread. This is factory cars. How auto
It's just absurd to argue the single plate Scuderia box can change gear to gear quicker than the GT3. There's two gaping holes in the argument. First, nobody (out here in the public) knows the shift time of the GT3, it hasn't been published or even discussed beyond Preuninger making some vague reference to "under 100ms" ... my CVT Prius is under 100ms ... it's continuous ... so is PDK. That brings me to the second point, the GT3 shifts at full power and torque, uninterrupted, with the upshift clutch slipping in additional torque during the engagement transition. The GT3 literally gains on the upshift. The single plate F1 boxes, have to retard the engine during the upshift, so no matter the milliseconds gear to gear, there's the loss of power during the shift.
You're arguing that Sport Auto, one of the few respected auto magazines and recognized for their lap time testing, is just plain wrong, and not a little wrong, but wrong by what would require most of a full second over a one minute lap for the 12C to be appreciably faster than the GT3.
If there's the influence of hopium, it's blurring the vision of anyone suggesting the old Ferrari hot rod is in the quick draw in this shoot out.
Anyway, the 430 Scuderia was not tested without Ferrari giving it the steroid treatment and being hand prepped for the media. Let's not revisit the "what it takes to make a Scuderia track well" thread. This is factory cars. How auto
It's just absurd to argue the single plate Scuderia box can change gear to gear quicker than the GT3. There's two gaping holes in the argument. First, nobody (out here in the public) knows the shift time of the GT3, it hasn't been published or even discussed beyond Preuninger making some vague reference to "under 100ms" ... my CVT Prius is under 100ms ... it's continuous ... so is PDK. That brings me to the second point, the GT3 shifts at full power and torque, uninterrupted, with the upshift clutch slipping in additional torque during the engagement transition. The GT3 literally gains on the upshift. The single plate F1 boxes, have to retard the engine during the upshift, so no matter the milliseconds gear to gear, there's the loss of power during the shift.
I know they typically dont pay well but..... I love the part about the Ferrari being steroid prepped for the magazine comparo
Almost as much as i like the part about what it takes to make a Scud track ready
At the end of the day, despite all the hand wringing and crying over its PDK/ high-tech acronmym bits - the 991GT3 will be a magnificent performer.
Then again - no one has to buy it. Hell i still have 2 fountain pens that I use and vinyl for sound (and I think i have a type writer - although i dont use it).
03-22-2013, 07:35 PM
#40
Race Director
You really should get a writing job as your posts are great I know they typically dont pay well but..... I love the part about the Ferrari being steroid prepped for the magazine comparo
Almost as much as i like the part about what it takes to make a Scud track ready
At the end of the day, despite all the hand wringing and crying over its PDK/ high-tech acronmym bits - the 991GT3 will be a magnificent performer.
Then again - no one has to buy it. Hell i still have 2 fountain pens that I use and vinyl for sound (and I think i have a type writer - although i dont use it).
I know they typically dont pay well but..... I love the part about the Ferrari being steroid prepped for the magazine comparoAlmost as much as i like the part about what it takes to make a Scud track ready
At the end of the day, despite all the hand wringing and crying over its PDK/ high-tech acronmym bits - the 991GT3 will be a magnificent performer.
Then again - no one has to buy it. Hell i still have 2 fountain pens that I use and vinyl for sound (and I think i have a type writer - although i dont use it).
03-22-2013, 08:34 PM
#41
Guys,
Different cars, but ....
996TT with 420WHP and 3500lbs aprox, and GT-R with 4000lbs ++ and 520WHP and DCT.
I'm driving the 996TT, just take a look at the difference when we start at 2nd gear... and than with 3rd gear...
Different cars, but ....
996TT with 420WHP and 3500lbs aprox, and GT-R with 4000lbs ++ and 520WHP and DCT.
I'm driving the 996TT, just take a look at the difference when we start at 2nd gear... and than with 3rd gear...
03-22-2013, 09:01 PM
#42
Guys,
Different cars, but ....
996TT with 420WHP and 3500lbs aprox, and GT-R with 4000lbs ++ and 520WHP and DCT.
I'm driving the 996TT, just take a look at the difference when we start at 2nd gear... and than with 3rd gear...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHK3q2M9UwU
Different cars, but ....
996TT with 420WHP and 3500lbs aprox, and GT-R with 4000lbs ++ and 520WHP and DCT.
I'm driving the 996TT, just take a look at the difference when we start at 2nd gear... and than with 3rd gear...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHK3q2M9UwU
If I read into what you've written, I think you're saying that if there's an upshift, the 996 falls behind, once you're in 3rd, the two tend to have similar pace at least until wind resistance (or sanity to slow down on public roads) prevails.
In any case, there's a gazillion apples to oranges comparisons of power and weight in a straight line or around the ring or other tracks.
Here's the Macca whipping the Turbo S. Quickest 0-60, then boring. And the 991 is said to be quicker than the Turbo S in launch control over various measures of feet or seconds or mph. Of course, once the turbos assert themselves, the Turbo S will giddy up and gallop away from the 991S, as the Noble did a prodigious job of gathering up the 12C in this video of all of them:
03-22-2013, 11:02 PM
#43
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Well Mike, i will send you some links to websites that will tell you Elvis is still alive and/or has been taken by aliens. There are multiple forums with self made truth..."knock yourself out".
Me on the contrary I come to the rennlist forum because I'm interested to read something that's true about porsches and their owner experiences and most of all facts - not some self fabricated BS - ... and in the rare case i know something, i post it. Here it comes again: No lap time that has been published for Hockenheim nor by Porsche, Auto-Motor-und Sport and Sportauto, AutoBild you name it. They haven't even driven the finished car yet, ask Joerg von Saurma. The last car that was tested by Sportauto on the Hockenheimring was the Callaway Z06 RR with a laptime of 1:07.00.
Viele Gruesse aus dem winterlichen Montreal!
Me on the contrary I come to the rennlist forum because I'm interested to read something that's true about porsches and their owner experiences and most of all facts - not some self fabricated BS - ... and in the rare case i know something, i post it. Here it comes again: No lap time that has been published for Hockenheim nor by Porsche, Auto-Motor-und Sport and Sportauto, AutoBild you name it. They haven't even driven the finished car yet, ask Joerg von Saurma. The last car that was tested by Sportauto on the Hockenheimring was the Callaway Z06 RR with a laptime of 1:07.00.
Viele Gruesse aus dem winterlichen Montreal!
Last edited by Metodt; 03-22-2013 at 11:05 PM. Reason: misspelling
03-22-2013, 11:59 PM
#44
Well Mike, i will send you some links to websites that will tell you Elvis is still alive and/or has been taken by aliens. There are multiple forums with self made truth..."knock yourself out".
Me on the contrary I come to the rennlist forum because I'm interested to read something that's true about porsches and their owner experiences and most of all facts - not some self fabricated BS - ... and in the rare case i know something, i post it. Here it comes again: No lap time that has been published for Hockenheim nor by Porsche, Auto-Motor-und Sport and Sportauto, AutoBild you name it. They haven't even driven the finished car yet, ask Joerg von Saurma. The last car that was tested by Sportauto on the Hockenheimring was the Callaway Z06 RR with a laptime of 1:07.00.
Viele Gruesse aus dem winterlichen Montreal!
Me on the contrary I come to the rennlist forum because I'm interested to read something that's true about porsches and their owner experiences and most of all facts - not some self fabricated BS - ... and in the rare case i know something, i post it. Here it comes again: No lap time that has been published for Hockenheim nor by Porsche, Auto-Motor-und Sport and Sportauto, AutoBild you name it. They haven't even driven the finished car yet, ask Joerg von Saurma. The last car that was tested by Sportauto on the Hockenheimring was the Callaway Z06 RR with a laptime of 1:07.00.
Viele Gruesse aus dem winterlichen Montreal!
I Googled around and couldn't find any mention of it at the euro mags, either. I did stop and read the Corvette thing. They're quite enthusiastic about Vettes! Pity it's all through Googl Translate, but that's the gist of it.
I guess some teenager is watching the ripples of that post and cracking himself up. I feel a little silly giving it so many cycles, taking it at face value, but it's the car itself, not some spurious post about lap times that has me interested in a 911 for the first time in quite a long while.
03-23-2013, 01:17 AM
#45
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The 991 GT3 time is a claim by Porsche, mentioned in the latest issue of Sport Auto, so it's not online yet. The other times are actual laptimes by Sport Auto