The 991 GT3 is the new 996.1 GT3!
03-15-2013, 09:27 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
The nadir for Porsche was ~1992/1993...just prior to the release of the 993...when an aging fleet (928, 964, 968)...sold very poorly.
Saving the company took the combination of the 993 and Boxster...coupled to a massive reduction in cost of production attributable to adopting Toyota's lean manufacturing techniques.
03-15-2013, 10:57 AM
#17
Drifting
I was reading through a few threads here. I understand the 996.1 GT3 wasn't available to many on this board but it occurred to me that the 996.1 GT3 when it was launched in 1999 shows so many similarities to the 991 GT3 - that help to understand how this new model GT3 impacts us and how its sits in the new world Porsche order.....
1). The 996.1 GT3 was 20-30kg heavier than the 996 it was based on.
2). The 996.1 GT3 was a new concept - previously go fast models had been labelled RS and this moniker wasnt revived until the 996.2 GT3 RS a number of years later.
3). The 996.1 GT3 was a new engine concept. A halfway house between the standard cars watercooled unit (later found to have a number of shortcomings) and what was then known as the GT1 bottom end (effectively now known as Mezger block used in 964/993 etc.
4). The 996.1 GT3 heralded a new performance moniker that was far more plush than its predecessors (964+993RS) ans was touted at the time to be suitable for daily driving.
5). The 996.1 GT3 heralded a number of advances not seen before on the RS variants (2 stage variocam etc).
6). the 996.1 GT3 ushered in a high rpm engine (at that time - 7800 rpm red line) that revved far more than any of its production fore-bearers (993RS topped out 6850 rpm). Peak power was made at 7200 rpm, 600rpm short of the red line.
7). The 996.1 GT3 offered a significant jump in bhp from the base Carrera 996 at the time (approximately 40 bhp).
8). The 996.1 GT3 was remarkably quicker than its predecessors in every important performance criteria (lap times, 0-100 etc).
The 996.1 GT3 when it was launched was debated amongst the press much in the way the 991 GT3 has been on these boards. Remember, before the GT3 the RS models had weighed between 1200-1270kg and been much rawer.
PDK and lightweight seats aside what we are seeing with the shift in platform, expectations and marketing is exactly what happened in 1998/1999.
Just thought this was an interesting analogy. May here forget the first GT3 was heavier than its base relative. It also came with a considerable performance benefit. The 991 GT3 is indeed more similar than we think and spells a new paradigm shift for Porsche, its marketing department and its customers...
1). The 996.1 GT3 was 20-30kg heavier than the 996 it was based on.
2). The 996.1 GT3 was a new concept - previously go fast models had been labelled RS and this moniker wasnt revived until the 996.2 GT3 RS a number of years later.
3). The 996.1 GT3 was a new engine concept. A halfway house between the standard cars watercooled unit (later found to have a number of shortcomings) and what was then known as the GT1 bottom end (effectively now known as Mezger block used in 964/993 etc.
4). The 996.1 GT3 heralded a new performance moniker that was far more plush than its predecessors (964+993RS) ans was touted at the time to be suitable for daily driving.
5). The 996.1 GT3 heralded a number of advances not seen before on the RS variants (2 stage variocam etc).
6). the 996.1 GT3 ushered in a high rpm engine (at that time - 7800 rpm red line) that revved far more than any of its production fore-bearers (993RS topped out 6850 rpm). Peak power was made at 7200 rpm, 600rpm short of the red line.
7). The 996.1 GT3 offered a significant jump in bhp from the base Carrera 996 at the time (approximately 40 bhp).
8). The 996.1 GT3 was remarkably quicker than its predecessors in every important performance criteria (lap times, 0-100 etc).
The 996.1 GT3 when it was launched was debated amongst the press much in the way the 991 GT3 has been on these boards. Remember, before the GT3 the RS models had weighed between 1200-1270kg and been much rawer.
PDK and lightweight seats aside what we are seeing with the shift in platform, expectations and marketing is exactly what happened in 1998/1999.
Just thought this was an interesting analogy. May here forget the first GT3 was heavier than its base relative. It also came with a considerable performance benefit. The 991 GT3 is indeed more similar than we think and spells a new paradigm shift for Porsche, its marketing department and its customers...
During the 996 and 997 generations, the "GT3" badge represented a strong link with the race cars on which they were based. Now, there is nothing - except for the superficial - in common. If Porsche were racing this new engine and using a PDK transmission in the race car, then I would stop whining. But it hasn't happened, and it probably never will.
If they called this car the Porsche 911 "GTR"
and then went on to make a legitimate GT3, with an engine, transmission, and suspension setup that had been raced at Le Mans, Sebring, Spa, Nurburgring, etc. then all would be fine.If there's no tangible link between the race cars and the road cars, the hardcore track buyers will go elsewhere (and save some money in the process).
03-15-2013, 01:56 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
I agree with many of these points, but there is one major difference that you're overlooking (or ignoring).
During the 996 and 997 generations, the "GT3" badge represented a strong link with the race cars on which they were based. Now, there is nothing - except for the superficial - in common. If Porsche were racing this new engine and using a PDK transmission in the race car, then I would stop whining. But it hasn't happened, and it probably never will.
If they called this car the Porsche 911 "GTR" and then went on to make a legitimate GT3, with an engine, transmission, and suspension setup that had been raced at Le Mans, Sebring, Spa, Nurburgring, etc. then all would be fine.
If there's no tangible link between the race cars and the road cars, the hardcore track buyers will go elsewhere (and save some money in the process).
During the 996 and 997 generations, the "GT3" badge represented a strong link with the race cars on which they were based. Now, there is nothing - except for the superficial - in common. If Porsche were racing this new engine and using a PDK transmission in the race car, then I would stop whining. But it hasn't happened, and it probably never will.
If they called this car the Porsche 911 "GTR"
and then went on to make a legitimate GT3, with an engine, transmission, and suspension setup that had been raced at Le Mans, Sebring, Spa, Nurburgring, etc. then all would be fine.If there's no tangible link between the race cars and the road cars, the hardcore track buyers will go elsewhere (and save some money in the process).
On the transmission; you will not see a PDK in a Cup nor would there be a true sequential in a street car. I have a sequential in my race car and would not want it in my street car. The PDK is the closest thing to a sequential for the street that you'll get IMHO.
I am excited about the new 991 GT3 as I now feel I can have a street car with some of the characteristics of my race car; PDK vs Sequential and 9000RPM vs 12000RPM that I can take to the track on occasion and still be a decent street car...
03-15-2013, 02:05 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
03-15-2013, 02:43 PM
#20
Drifting
I think there will be a link between the 991 GT3 and the future GT3 Cup, just in reverse. I believe the New Engine will be the basis for the new Cup Engine. If my memory serves me correctly, the current engine is holomangated until the end of 2014. This gives Porsche a further 2 years to develop the new engine for the Cup. Time will prove me right or wrong. JMO
On the transmission; you will not see a PDK in a Cup nor would there be a true sequential in a street car. I have a sequential in my race car and would not want it in my street car. The PDK is the closest thing to a sequential for the street that you'll get IMHO.
I am excited about the new 991 GT3 as I now feel I can have a street car with some of the characteristics of my race car; PDK vs Sequential and 9000RPM vs 12000RPM that I can take to the track on occasion and still be a decent street car...
On the transmission; you will not see a PDK in a Cup nor would there be a true sequential in a street car. I have a sequential in my race car and would not want it in my street car. The PDK is the closest thing to a sequential for the street that you'll get IMHO.
I am excited about the new 991 GT3 as I now feel I can have a street car with some of the characteristics of my race car; PDK vs Sequential and 9000RPM vs 12000RPM that I can take to the track on occasion and still be a decent street car...
I know we'll never see the modern PDK in a race car or the sequential in a street car. But the old G50, which was derived from the 993 GT2 transmission with uprated synchros, external coolers among other enhancements formed the basis for the H-pattern transmissions used in the 996 racers and all 996 and 997 GT3 variants. So the antique, luddite H-pattern has some legitimate race car cred, unlike PDK, which just mimics a true race car transmission.
It's a GTR, not a GT3.
03-15-2013, 02:45 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Doing it in the reverse is suboptimal; why should the customers that bought this $$$ car then be the unpaid (in fact, paying!) guinea pigs?
I know we'll never see the modern PDK in a race car or the sequential in a street car. But the old G50, which was derived from the 993 GT2 transmission with uprated synchros, external coolers among other enhancements formed the basis for the H-pattern transmissions used in the 996 racers and all 996 and 997 GT3 variants. So the antique, luddite H-pattern has some legitimate race car cred, unlike PDK, which just mimics a true race car transmission.
It's a GTR, not a GT3.
I know we'll never see the modern PDK in a race car or the sequential in a street car. But the old G50, which was derived from the 993 GT2 transmission with uprated synchros, external coolers among other enhancements formed the basis for the H-pattern transmissions used in the 996 racers and all 996 and 997 GT3 variants. So the antique, luddite H-pattern has some legitimate race car cred, unlike PDK, which just mimics a true race car transmission.
It's a GTR, not a GT3.
03-15-2013, 02:51 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
I think the "problem" is that for many of us who have "grown up" with the GT3 from its 6.1 origins we have always hankered for a more "pure" experience... I think the 6.2 and 6.2 RS were incremental improvements in line with this ethos/philosophy ... I still think the 6.2 is the sharpest track weapon requiring the most from its piloti ... I was a little dissapointed with the 7.1 with PASM and TC not too
mention the rear brake bias/overheating issues ... but it was still "faster", likewise with the 7.2 it
went further into the realms of technology, at least the RS made up for this...
I think with the new car it has moved closer to a "super" GTS ... abandoning the manual tranny for a PDK with a reversed shifter to mimic a sequential shifter is IMO another step towards GT-R "video game" BS ...
it will be a faster car, but will it require/extract the same from its driver that a 6.2 or 6.2 RS??? - I cannot imagine it will ...
mention the rear brake bias/overheating issues ... but it was still "faster", likewise with the 7.2 it
went further into the realms of technology, at least the RS made up for this...
I think with the new car it has moved closer to a "super" GTS ... abandoning the manual tranny for a PDK with a reversed shifter to mimic a sequential shifter is IMO another step towards GT-R "video game" BS ...
it will be a faster car, but will it require/extract the same from its driver that a 6.2 or 6.2 RS??? - I cannot imagine it will ...
03-15-2013, 02:56 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
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I agree with many of these points, but there is one major difference that you're overlooking (or ignoring).
During the 996 and 997 generations, the "GT3" badge represented a strong link with the race cars on which they were based. Now, there is nothing - except for the superficial - in common. If Porsche were racing this new engine and using a PDK transmission in the race car, then I would stop whining. But it hasn't happened, and it probably never will.
If they called this car the Porsche 911 "GTR" and then went on to make a legitimate GT3, with an engine, transmission, and suspension setup that had been raced at Le Mans, Sebring, Spa, Nurburgring, etc. then all would be fine.
If there's no tangible link between the race cars and the road cars, the hardcore track buyers will go elsewhere (and save some money in the process).
During the 996 and 997 generations, the "GT3" badge represented a strong link with the race cars on which they were based. Now, there is nothing - except for the superficial - in common. If Porsche were racing this new engine and using a PDK transmission in the race car, then I would stop whining. But it hasn't happened, and it probably never will.
If they called this car the Porsche 911 "GTR"
and then went on to make a legitimate GT3, with an engine, transmission, and suspension setup that had been raced at Le Mans, Sebring, Spa, Nurburgring, etc. then all would be fine.If there's no tangible link between the race cars and the road cars, the hardcore track buyers will go elsewhere (and save some money in the process).
Fully agree..I commented on that one also before..
Poor 991 GT3..but its Porsche´s own mistake..they had all the time in the world to prevent this discussion here..
The real question is whether this new engine will appear in racing soon..the longer ist doesnt..the more the image of the 991 GT3 will suffer..
03-15-2013, 03:53 PM
#25
I think the "problem" is that for many of us who have "grown up" with the GT3 from its 6.1 origins we have always hankered for a more "pure" experience... I think the 6.2 and 6.2 RS were incremental improvements in line with this ethos/philosophy ... I still think the 6.2 is the sharpest track weapon requiring the most from its piloti ... I was a little dissapointed with the 7.1 with PASM and TC not too
mention the rear brake bias/overheating issues ... but it was still "faster", likewise with the 7.2 it
went further into the realms of technology, at least the RS made up for this...
I think with the new car it has moved closer to a "super" GTS ... abandoning the manual tranny for a PDK with a reversed shifter to mimic a sequential shifter is IMO another step towards GT-R "video game" BS ...
it will be a faster car, but will it require/extract the same from its driver that a 6.2 or 6.2 RS??? - I cannot imagine it will ...
mention the rear brake bias/overheating issues ... but it was still "faster", likewise with the 7.2 it
went further into the realms of technology, at least the RS made up for this...
I think with the new car it has moved closer to a "super" GTS ... abandoning the manual tranny for a PDK with a reversed shifter to mimic a sequential shifter is IMO another step towards GT-R "video game" BS ...
it will be a faster car, but will it require/extract the same from its driver that a 6.2 or 6.2 RS??? - I cannot imagine it will ...
And good to see a population of knowledgeable Porschephiles still contributing to Rennlist and PH and the "old guard" of Porsche forum sites.
ps. naming the GT3 was novel in '99, but no relevance to the 991 today as any commonality with the 996. The wet heads of the 996 were a continuation of the GT1 (in the 996, as from the 993 variant.) I think I've said my piece on lamenting the end of the Mezger engine and the inevitability of seeing the 991 arrive and the RS 4.0 as a limited production trophy. Porsche could still built 997 tubs for the road, if not race another season after 2013. Just take the PDK single shaft manual shifting box, bolt it to this new GT3 engine, in all its 9000 rpm goodness, drop the whole lot in a 997 tub, whack on the RS 4.0 suspension and hang a price tag off the rearview mirror. Should msrp cheaper than the 997.2 GT3 (since engine costs are so much less.) Bingo $99K turn key track day 911. I'll take one.
03-15-2013, 11:56 PM
#26
I think the "problem" is that for many of us who have "grown up" with the GT3 from its 6.1 origins we have always hankered for a more "pure" experience... I think the 6.2 and 6.2 RS were incremental improvements in line with this ethos/philosophy ... I still think the 6.2 is the sharpest track weapon requiring the most from its piloti ... I was a little dissapointed with the 7.1 with PASM and TC not too
mention the rear brake bias/overheating issues ... but it was still "faster", likewise with the 7.2 it
went further into the realms of technology, at least the RS made up for this...
I think with the new car it has moved closer to a "super" GTS ... abandoning the manual tranny for a PDK with a reversed shifter to mimic a sequential shifter is IMO another step towards GT-R "video game" BS ...
it will be a faster car, but will it require/extract the same from its driver that a 6.2 or 6.2 RS??? - I cannot imagine it will ...
mention the rear brake bias/overheating issues ... but it was still "faster", likewise with the 7.2 it
went further into the realms of technology, at least the RS made up for this...
I think with the new car it has moved closer to a "super" GTS ... abandoning the manual tranny for a PDK with a reversed shifter to mimic a sequential shifter is IMO another step towards GT-R "video game" BS ...
it will be a faster car, but will it require/extract the same from its driver that a 6.2 or 6.2 RS??? - I cannot imagine it will ...
03-16-2013, 12:25 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Larry Cable.
You feel the same way about the 991 GT3 (which none of us know what we are talking about yet I might add as none of us have driven it!) as I did about the 996.2 GT3 that you use as a reference when I drove that car....
Compared to the 996.1 GT3, and especially the 993 RS and 964 RS before it (all of which I've spent some reasonable ownership and driving time in), the 996.2 GT3 seemed heavier, more electronic aids and raw and emotional than its predecessors (even the 996.1 GT3 dare I say it sorry).
Im not sure how this will pan out until the motor noters have done their reviews. My belief is we are seeing a significant shift in product platforms and marketing at PAG. I believe the 991 GT3 RS will be 500 bhp and PDK and an Uber "GTS" if you like and to get serious you may need to back date or go up to 960, or they will bring in an even more compelling Caymen (beyond the R) or you go elsewhere, or back to beginning with a used Miata!
I do believe that PAGs intentions are to effectively make the new GT3 and "uber GTS with track ability" in terms of its design remit.
I ordered the car hoping this was the case as it suits my lifestyle perfectly (I need a car to tour in as well as drive hard and one my wife can take the wheel of when Im tired or have had too much to drink!). A car for every season.
I understand many here will lament the passing of the old guard. I did when the world went water cooled and kept my exquisite air cooled 911 (which I never intend to sell). Those who have been climbing the ladder buying new GT3 ever time one is launched may be a bit disappointing I guess. Its an easy situation to remedy - go out and buy yourself a nice 996.1 GT3 or 996.2 GT3RS and enjoy that on the track on the weekends pushing your abilities and buy a GTS for getting to work in....maybe....
You feel the same way about the 991 GT3 (which none of us know what we are talking about yet I might add as none of us have driven it!) as I did about the 996.2 GT3 that you use as a reference when I drove that car....
Compared to the 996.1 GT3, and especially the 993 RS and 964 RS before it (all of which I've spent some reasonable ownership and driving time in), the 996.2 GT3 seemed heavier, more electronic aids and raw and emotional than its predecessors (even the 996.1 GT3 dare I say it sorry).
Im not sure how this will pan out until the motor noters have done their reviews. My belief is we are seeing a significant shift in product platforms and marketing at PAG. I believe the 991 GT3 RS will be 500 bhp and PDK and an Uber "GTS" if you like and to get serious you may need to back date or go up to 960, or they will bring in an even more compelling Caymen (beyond the R) or you go elsewhere, or back to beginning with a used Miata!
I do believe that PAGs intentions are to effectively make the new GT3 and "uber GTS with track ability" in terms of its design remit.
I ordered the car hoping this was the case as it suits my lifestyle perfectly (I need a car to tour in as well as drive hard and one my wife can take the wheel of when Im tired or have had too much to drink!). A car for every season.
I understand many here will lament the passing of the old guard. I did when the world went water cooled and kept my exquisite air cooled 911 (which I never intend to sell). Those who have been climbing the ladder buying new GT3 ever time one is launched may be a bit disappointing I guess. Its an easy situation to remedy - go out and buy yourself a nice 996.1 GT3 or 996.2 GT3RS and enjoy that on the track on the weekends pushing your abilities and buy a GTS for getting to work in....maybe....
03-16-2013, 03:48 AM
#28
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
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I think the "problem" is that for many of us who have "grown up" with the GT3 from its 6.1 origins we have always hankered for a more "pure" experience... I think the 6.2 and 6.2 RS were incremental improvements in line with this ethos/philosophy ... I still think the 6.2 is the sharpest track weapon requiring the most from its piloti ... I was a little dissapointed with the 7.1 with PASM and TC not too
mention the rear brake bias/overheating issues ... but it was still "faster", likewise with the 7.2 it
went further into the realms of technology, at least the RS made up for this...
I think with the new car it has moved closer to a "super" GTS ... abandoning the manual tranny for a PDK with a reversed shifter to mimic a sequential shifter is IMO another step towards GT-R "video game" BS ...
it will be a faster car, but will it require/extract the same from its driver that a 6.2 or 6.2 RS??? - I cannot imagine it will ...
mention the rear brake bias/overheating issues ... but it was still "faster", likewise with the 7.2 it
went further into the realms of technology, at least the RS made up for this...
I think with the new car it has moved closer to a "super" GTS ... abandoning the manual tranny for a PDK with a reversed shifter to mimic a sequential shifter is IMO another step towards GT-R "video game" BS ...
it will be a faster car, but will it require/extract the same from its driver that a 6.2 or 6.2 RS??? - I cannot imagine it will ...
now you make sure you keep smurf blue car.
991gt/rs is nice to play with. not something i would keep.
if i had half a brain cell left, i would have kept one of my 6gt3. the one i like most was the one i bought from carerra GT. i also had Guard LSD in that car. what a fk'g moron i am .
03-16-2013, 08:26 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Carrera GT. I enjoy reading your monologues too!
The overall point I was bringing to bear with the somewhat provocative title was simply that this new 991 GT3 has cast upon us the same paradigm shift, I suspect, that the announcement of the 1999 996.1 GT3 did at Geneva 15 years ago. Its interesting that some of the metrics of change are similar. Of course the single odd feature out is the manual v PKF tranny.
In 10 years we may be having this debate again when the 991 replacement GT3 packs batteries only LOL!
The overall point I was bringing to bear with the somewhat provocative title was simply that this new 991 GT3 has cast upon us the same paradigm shift, I suspect, that the announcement of the 1999 996.1 GT3 did at Geneva 15 years ago. Its interesting that some of the metrics of change are similar. Of course the single odd feature out is the manual v PKF tranny.
In 10 years we may be having this debate again when the 991 replacement GT3 packs batteries only LOL!
03-16-2013, 09:01 AM
#30
Rennlist Member
Right.
The new 996 GT3??? I think not.
Why is this one even called a GT3?? Isn't that a reference to motorsports?
It isn't a GT3. It is a GTS X51 with a fake badge.
I would have thought the 991GT3 would be a great GTS just like the current wide body 997 GTS. It isn't a GT3 I dont care how many gadgets they ad or how many ridiculous promo movies they shoot of it going sideways at the track. I wonder if they had to pull some fuses to make that happen.....
Like the GTS it will be a great daily driver that is somewhat track worthy (To be proven on many levels.), a bit boring with PDK but convenient if you are stuck intrafic a lot I guess and comfy with ventilated non track seats. It now is available to the masses, but it now has a load of competitors, I hope that sales will be so bad right out of the gate that they will be forced to repair the image with the next RS. Doubt it.
I'd have to remove the badge to not feel like a poser on this one.
hit the nail on the head.
now you make sure you keep smurf blue car.
991gt/rs is nice to play with. not something i would keep.
if i had half a brain cell left, i would have kept one of my 6gt3. the one i like most was the one i bought from carerra GT. i also had Guard LSD in that car. what a fk'g moron i am .
now you make sure you keep smurf blue car.
991gt/rs is nice to play with. not something i would keep.
if i had half a brain cell left, i would have kept one of my 6gt3. the one i like most was the one i bought from carerra GT. i also had Guard LSD in that car. what a fk'g moron i am .
The new 996 GT3??? I think not.
Why is this one even called a GT3?? Isn't that a reference to motorsports?
It isn't a GT3. It is a GTS X51 with a fake badge.
I would have thought the 991GT3 would be a great GTS just like the current wide body 997 GTS. It isn't a GT3 I dont care how many gadgets they ad or how many ridiculous promo movies they shoot of it going sideways at the track. I wonder if they had to pull some fuses to make that happen.....
Like the GTS it will be a great daily driver that is somewhat track worthy (To be proven on many levels.), a bit boring with PDK but convenient if you are stuck intrafic a lot I guess and comfy with ventilated non track seats. It now is available to the masses, but it now has a load of competitors, I hope that sales will be so bad right out of the gate that they will be forced to repair the image with the next RS. Doubt it.
I'd have to remove the badge to not feel like a poser on this one.