991.2 GT3 Manual Money Shift :-(
09-02-2021, 11:43 AM
#61
Three Wheelin'
Thanks to OP for posting primary data. Analysis by CRex and discussion thereafter very interesting and informative.
09-02-2021, 12:05 PM
#62
As above really, I think the data is solid. It's simply saying that over the life of the logs it's spent 7.4s being buzzed, it's just the last event was at 3306min. The killer is the 11,000 peak.
I once had a Civic Type R demo car (EP3) and missed 5th coming from redline at 4th, I found 3rd and was young so took me a split second to figure out I was an idiot. Tacho was off the scale.
Car survived, at least the remainder of the test drive anyway.
I once had a Civic Type R demo car (EP3) and missed 5th coming from redline at 4th, I found 3rd and was young so took me a split second to figure out I was an idiot. Tacho was off the scale.
Car survived, at least the remainder of the test drive anyway.
09-02-2021, 12:05 PM
#63
My experience of 991.2 GT3 Manual was exactly the same (I even posted a thread here). I drove 4 different cars and all exhibited this issue. The shifter is too vague and plasticy, there is indeed a lot of play when you are going between gates/its imprecise. The shifter does move when in gear (but this is more of an eyesore not a mechanical issue). Clutch engagement is way too high with too much pedal travel and light speed.
All in all, the manual transmission in this car is good for a weekend fun car/canyon driving/cruising duty. Back to back 9,000 rpm shifts and downshifts in a track, I personally would not feel comfortable with the way the transmission is. I would change the cables and the shifter to numeric and see how that feels.
I much rather prefer bolt rifle action shifter that works with a linkage rod vs the cables, they require more force and is almost impossible to miss a shift with them or money shift. I know we'll never have linkage rod design with the Porsche manuals, given that the 997 GT3 manual transmission is far better for track duty. To me, its clear that to differentiate PDK vs Manual, Porsche engineered the manual this time around for non-track duty. Otherwise, it makes no sense.
The 992 GT3 is even softer clutch pedal and less force required to shift.
All in all, the manual transmission in this car is good for a weekend fun car/canyon driving/cruising duty. Back to back 9,000 rpm shifts and downshifts in a track, I personally would not feel comfortable with the way the transmission is. I would change the cables and the shifter to numeric and see how that feels.
I much rather prefer bolt rifle action shifter that works with a linkage rod vs the cables, they require more force and is almost impossible to miss a shift with them or money shift. I know we'll never have linkage rod design with the Porsche manuals, given that the 997 GT3 manual transmission is far better for track duty. To me, its clear that to differentiate PDK vs Manual, Porsche engineered the manual this time around for non-track duty. Otherwise, it makes no sense.
The 992 GT3 is even softer clutch pedal and less force required to shift.
09-02-2021, 12:15 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
u guys worry way too much
1. don't money shift
2. when you money shift, just cut a check buy a new car
btw, if you money shifted driving on street, you really should just buy PDK or quit driving all together.
if you money shifted racing, will racing is expensive. and blowing up cars, engine, and. such are part of the fun. if u haven't lost an engine or gearbox on track, you are going too slow.
1. don't money shift
2. when you money shift, just cut a check buy a new car
btw, if you money shifted driving on street, you really should just buy PDK or quit driving all together.
if you money shifted racing, will racing is expensive. and blowing up cars, engine, and. such are part of the fun. if u haven't lost an engine or gearbox on track, you are going too slow.
REAL TALK!
09-02-2021, 12:16 PM
#65
Pro
Here's how to read this:
Z201 is the total time spent in any degree of overrevs. Not the most telling, since Ranges 1-3 are generally survivable.
Z214-216 are the lethal bits. You have to go through 214 to get to 215 then 216 to hit your peak rpm of 11k, then back down to 215 and 214 on the way back. The distribution of ignitions across these three buckets, as well as the uniform timestamp at 3306.0m, confirms that you busted all 3 ranges together at the last event.
Z214 corresponds to 9,600-10,000 or average of 9,800rpm. 9,800rpm / 60 = 163rps, that is revolutions of the crank. In a four stroke engine you get 3 ignitions per crank (3 cylinders on the power cycle, the other 3 on exhaust). Each second spent in this range is about 163/3 = 54.4 ignitions. Divide that by your 192 logged ignitions and you have 3.5s in Range 3.
Same exercise for Z215 (160x at ~10,500) and Z216 (80x at ~11000) gets you 2.7s and 1.3s, respectively.
3.5+2.7+1.3 = 6.5s
Can a single money shift last 6.5s? That really got me thinking. Just now I counted out 6s on the computer clock and that is a LONG time. Possible if you were going downhill and left the clutch engaged the whole way. OR there might have been another serious overrev event into Range 6 in the past (i.e. you're looking at 6.5s accumulated over two incidents).
Either way, believe us that the ECU doesn't lie--the timestamp and ignition counts actually make sense if you think through the above. And with a faulty DME you'll not have timestamps and distributions that line up like so.
I've had silly moments aplenty too. We all learn and get better. And if it's any consolation, a 9A1 engine block cleaned up makes one hell of coffee table, and will be a real conversation piece at your next garage gathering...
Z201 is the total time spent in any degree of overrevs. Not the most telling, since Ranges 1-3 are generally survivable.
Z214-216 are the lethal bits. You have to go through 214 to get to 215 then 216 to hit your peak rpm of 11k, then back down to 215 and 214 on the way back. The distribution of ignitions across these three buckets, as well as the uniform timestamp at 3306.0m, confirms that you busted all 3 ranges together at the last event.
Z214 corresponds to 9,600-10,000 or average of 9,800rpm. 9,800rpm / 60 = 163rps, that is revolutions of the crank. In a four stroke engine you get 3 ignitions per crank (3 cylinders on the power cycle, the other 3 on exhaust). Each second spent in this range is about 163/3 = 54.4 ignitions. Divide that by your 192 logged ignitions and you have 3.5s in Range 3.
Same exercise for Z215 (160x at ~10,500) and Z216 (80x at ~11000) gets you 2.7s and 1.3s, respectively.
3.5+2.7+1.3 = 6.5s
Can a single money shift last 6.5s? That really got me thinking. Just now I counted out 6s on the computer clock and that is a LONG time. Possible if you were going downhill and left the clutch engaged the whole way. OR there might have been another serious overrev event into Range 6 in the past (i.e. you're looking at 6.5s accumulated over two incidents).
Either way, believe us that the ECU doesn't lie--the timestamp and ignition counts actually make sense if you think through the above. And with a faulty DME you'll not have timestamps and distributions that line up like so.
I've had silly moments aplenty too. We all learn and get better. And if it's any consolation, a 9A1 engine block cleaned up makes one hell of coffee table, and will be a real conversation piece at your next garage gathering...
1. Number of ignitions / 3 = number of engine revolutions
2. Number of revolutions / by rev limiter = minutes spent at limiter
3. Minutes spent at limiter x 60 = seconds spent at limiter
Thus for Z214: 192/3 = 64 64/9800 (average) = 0.00653 minutes * 60 = 0.39 seconds
It will be even less for Z215 and Z216. Thus perhaps the total time spent in range 4-6 will be slightly more than 3/4 a second.
3/4 second makes sense.
PS since I have some time
Z215: (160/3)/10500*60 = 0.32 seconds
Z216: (80/3)/11000*60 = 0.14 seconds
Total Z214/215/216 = 0.39+0.32+0.14 = 0.85 seconds or so
Last edited by Deven; 09-02-2021 at 01:51 PM.
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09-02-2021, 01:29 PM
#66
Burning Brakes
you know. I'm surprised that porsche or any manufacturer has not yet designed a manual transmission that will auto-lock out a gear during downshifts when the engine is at a certain speed.
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09-02-2021, 01:58 PM
#67
Not sure if your calculations are correct:
1. Number of ignitions / 3 = number of engine revolutions
2. Number of revolutions / by rev limiter = minutes spent at limiter
3. Minutes spent at limiter x 60 = seconds spent at limiter
Thus for Z214: 192/3 = 64 64/9800 (average) = 0.00653 minutes * 60 = 0.39 seconds
It will be even less for Z215 and Z216. Thus perhaps the total time spent in range 4-6 will be slightly more than 3/4 a second.
3/4 second makes sense.
PS since I have some time
Z215: (160/3)/10500*60 = 0.32 seconds
Z216: (80/3)/11000*60 = 0.14 seconds
Total Z214/215/216 = 0.39+0.32+0.14 = 0.85 seconds or so
1. Number of ignitions / 3 = number of engine revolutions
2. Number of revolutions / by rev limiter = minutes spent at limiter
3. Minutes spent at limiter x 60 = seconds spent at limiter
Thus for Z214: 192/3 = 64 64/9800 (average) = 0.00653 minutes * 60 = 0.39 seconds
It will be even less for Z215 and Z216. Thus perhaps the total time spent in range 4-6 will be slightly more than 3/4 a second.
3/4 second makes sense.
PS since I have some time
Z215: (160/3)/10500*60 = 0.32 seconds
Z216: (80/3)/11000*60 = 0.14 seconds
Total Z214/215/216 = 0.39+0.32+0.14 = 0.85 seconds or so
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09-02-2021, 02:22 PM
#68
If you track a car, you have to consider it disposable.
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09-02-2021, 02:40 PM
#69
09-02-2021, 02:47 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
Sorry OP for your misfortune- money shift can happen to any of us non-PDK owners. It would seem the only recourse you may have is working with your dealership which gave you bad advice post-incident. Have they acknowledged this and are they willing to go to bat for you to help mitigate your cost for a new engine / install? I would hope they could help negotiate a crate engine at cost and reduced labor charges-
09-02-2021, 02:58 PM
#71
I lost control of a Cayman a decade ago on turn one at Brainerd. Did 3 laps without lifting at turn one and the 4th time lost the rear end and bashed up the car real nice.
Did I lift mid corner, hit a dip, ran over some oil? Sadly I still dont know. I had people tell me that the Cayman of that era had issues with traction control etc. In the end, I chalked it up to a drivers error. Cost me a bunch to get the thing repaired.
A money shift is driver error. Driving manuals most of my life that was the one thing I had hope I would never do. But it can happen. I don't have as many track days as many on this forum, but I do know that whenever I tracked my car, all I hoped for was that I get myself and the car back home in one piece.
Although I feel comfortable heel and toeing a manual on and off track: I really do think Porsche were right in that the 991 and onwards are better with PDK. Especially after driving the 991 I don't see the point of a manual transmission, unless the sole purpose of the car is for street use.
I'm not trying to sound negative and many have already said the same thing: this isn't about lawyering up or expecting Porsche to give you a break. If one has an argument it maybe with the local dealership saying no need to bring the car in. Other than that, I hope you can sell it/replace the engine or whatever you need to do to enjoy driving again. That's what its all about anyway.
Did I lift mid corner, hit a dip, ran over some oil? Sadly I still dont know. I had people tell me that the Cayman of that era had issues with traction control etc. In the end, I chalked it up to a drivers error. Cost me a bunch to get the thing repaired.
A money shift is driver error. Driving manuals most of my life that was the one thing I had hope I would never do. But it can happen. I don't have as many track days as many on this forum, but I do know that whenever I tracked my car, all I hoped for was that I get myself and the car back home in one piece.
Although I feel comfortable heel and toeing a manual on and off track: I really do think Porsche were right in that the 991 and onwards are better with PDK. Especially after driving the 991 I don't see the point of a manual transmission, unless the sole purpose of the car is for street use.
I'm not trying to sound negative and many have already said the same thing: this isn't about lawyering up or expecting Porsche to give you a break. If one has an argument it maybe with the local dealership saying no need to bring the car in. Other than that, I hope you can sell it/replace the engine or whatever you need to do to enjoy driving again. That's what its all about anyway.
09-02-2021, 03:38 PM
#72
Many forget the 991.1 GT3 didn’t have a manual, and was never designed to have a manual. The 997GT3 was designed to have a manual along with the 992, Will be curios to see how the 992 feels and navigates. I’m pretty good in the manual, but anyone here can make this mistake and boom. I loved my PDK RS for that reason it’s too expensive of a mistake, and you always work to design out mistakes or the latter happens.
09-02-2021, 04:03 PM
#73
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The 991 GT3 was designed with both gearboxes from an early point in the development. They built and tested mules with both gearboxes. The decision to release it with just PDK was a business decision, not an engineering one (even if there may be compelling engineering reasons for PDK).
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09-02-2021, 04:03 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Exploring some options that people have sent me, thanks for the updates!
As far as 991.2 manual, I would not say its bad at all. Ok, not a Honda or Miata but its pretty crisp in my opinion. Yes, you can get a short shift kit and all that but I can't claim that there is anything wrong with the clutch or shift action. 997 has a ridiculously heavy clutch IMHO. Not this car.
I personally like a manual for both street and track. I now PDK would be faster but heck if I'm able to keep up with someone with a PDK, I figure I'm faster. Well, when the car isn't a paperweight (ha ha, sob sob).
As far as 991.2 manual, I would not say its bad at all. Ok, not a Honda or Miata but its pretty crisp in my opinion. Yes, you can get a short shift kit and all that but I can't claim that there is anything wrong with the clutch or shift action. 997 has a ridiculously heavy clutch IMHO. Not this car.
I personally like a manual for both street and track. I now PDK would be faster but heck if I'm able to keep up with someone with a PDK, I figure I'm faster. Well, when the car isn't a paperweight (ha ha, sob sob).
09-02-2021, 04:23 PM
#75
Racer
I honestly thought the gearbox and clutch/lever feel in my 981 GT4 were far superior to my GT3. I still think it's a very good transmission, but I admit I don't feel like I can shift with quite the wild abandon I did in the GT4. I've also got a Carrera 3.2 with a 915 box and have gotten used to a gentle and careful touch. Tough situation here for the OP, but it sounds like the car was on borrowed time after the initial money shift, and I wonder if it had blown that rod through the case then if his opinion regarding the factory's decision would have been any different. The bright side is that the car's have bumped a bunch in valley over the past year or so, and already had very good resale value. If you've got to throw $60-70k at a car you could do a LOT worse than a GT3. The other option might be selling it as-is to a racer or someone looking for a project, and then buying another.