991.2 GT3 Manual Money Shift :-(
09-02-2021, 06:39 AM
#46
u guys worry way too much
1. don't money shift
2. when you money shift, just cut a check buy a new car
btw, if you money shifted driving on street, you really should just buy PDK or quit driving all together.
if you money shifted racing, will racing is expensive. and blowing up cars, engine, and. such are part of the fun. if u haven't lost an engine or gearbox on track, you are going too slow.
1. don't money shift
2. when you money shift, just cut a check buy a new car
btw, if you money shifted driving on street, you really should just buy PDK or quit driving all together.
if you money shifted racing, will racing is expensive. and blowing up cars, engine, and. such are part of the fun. if u haven't lost an engine or gearbox on track, you are going too slow.
Equally if you haven't binned a car - you are going to slow or rather have never really tested the car to its full limits.
The reality is, motorsport is expensive (and dangerous), stuff happens all the time and if you aren't prepared to accept the full cost of replacing a car you probably shouldn't be doing it.
I know this is not what the OP wants to hear, however it is the truth.
Further honesty, having a pop at Porsche for your poor driving is not the way to go. Accept your mistake, learn from it - draw a line under the incident - buy a new engine and move on.
Last edited by groundhog; 09-02-2021 at 06:52 AM.
09-02-2021, 07:24 AM
#47
Burning Brakes
Hate to hear this, it’s a sh*t happens moment and moving on is the only option.
In your shoes, I’d start with the second hand engine or find a indie shop willing to rebuild the bottom end. Check out LA Dismantlers or SGR_Automotive on Instagram.
The days of this car requiring a paper trail of dealership-only service visits and parts are over.
In your shoes, I’d start with the second hand engine or find a indie shop willing to rebuild the bottom end. Check out LA Dismantlers or SGR_Automotive on Instagram.
The days of this car requiring a paper trail of dealership-only service visits and parts are over.
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Jbravo23 (09-02-2021)
09-02-2021, 08:17 AM
#48
Rennlist Member
There has been no mention of this, but did the car ever get serviced by the dealer? Did the dealer tech test drive the car and money shift contributing to the cumulative total of Range 6 overrevs?
Can you post an image of the DME report for us to review?
Summary: you’re likely screwed and will have to cough up the dough, but I understand the frustration when the data doesn’t line up with your understanding of the events and the dealer gave you bad advice. After a range 6 over rev, the engine should be inspected for sure.
Can you post an image of the DME report for us to review?
Summary: you’re likely screwed and will have to cough up the dough, but I understand the frustration when the data doesn’t line up with your understanding of the events and the dealer gave you bad advice. After a range 6 over rev, the engine should be inspected for sure.
09-02-2021, 09:15 AM
#49
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I wouldn't have known about range 6 overrev unless I had taken to the dealer. I had no idea what the DME was capable of downloading as I had not asked for this before. I paid cash for the car and bought it brand new. I'll find the reports - yes, I have them and I do own my sh*t. Stop beating me up over not owning it and wanting someone to pay. Easy for you to say - until it happens to you. You'd be angry too. I've not posted all my interactions with Porsche or the dealer but this is barely the tip of the iceberg so if you are going to give me some negative comment, keep it to yourself. I was looking for constructive comments and suggestions on what to do from here including, as I mentioned, leads on a used engine or other alternatives. And thanks to those who have send me PMs with suggestions.
Below is a snippet. You can see the confusion and 7.4s and where it came from. There is more from where this came from - this is just a snip. Its not obvious what Z202 "is". I've heard its range 4-6 but could be range 6 or range 1-6. There is also no indication of what the range is for this car. I've heard it starts at 9K for the 997 which is higher than that car's redline. No postings I could find and dealer hasn't told me where range1 starts for this car.
Below is a snippet. You can see the confusion and 7.4s and where it came from. There is more from where this came from - this is just a snip. Its not obvious what Z202 "is". I've heard its range 4-6 but could be range 6 or range 1-6. There is also no indication of what the range is for this car. I've heard it starts at 9K for the 997 which is higher than that car's redline. No postings I could find and dealer hasn't told me where range1 starts for this car.
Last edited by srwhitman; 09-02-2021 at 09:21 AM.
09-02-2021, 09:25 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
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I wouldn't have known about range 6 overrev unless I had taken to the dealer. I had no idea what the DME was capable of downloading as I had not asked for this before. I paid cash for the car and bought it brand new. I'll find the reports - yes, I have them and I do own my sh*t. Stop beating me up over not owning it and wanting someone to pay. Easy for you to say - until it happens to you. You'd be angry too. I've not posted all my interactions with Porsche or the dealer but this is barely the tip of the iceberg so if you are going to give me some negative comment, keep it to yourself. I was looking for constructive comments and suggestions on what to do from here including, as I mentioned, leads on a used engine or other alternatives. And thanks to those who have send me PMs with suggestions.
Maybe have your attorney write a letter and see if they can work something out.
The advice you got from your dealer was clearly the wrong advice, so maybe play that angle?
I’m really sorry this happened to you. In the end, its you’re decision on how to proceed.
We feel your pain even though some of the above posts may not seem that way.
Good luck to you and please report back and keep us posted on your progress.
Take Rennlist comments with a grain of salt and read more into the advisory posts in this thread as opposed to the negative crap. You will come out of this fine and you’ll be back on your way in no time. Good luck and keep us posted. And relax when reading some of the stoopid posts. Concentrate on the others. Chin up my friend.
09-02-2021, 09:50 AM
#53
ok, now the more knowledgeable folks here have some data to work with (of which i am not one).
so max rpm was 11k. going to go with that was the range 6 entry you have there at 3306. can you share what the total operating time on your engine is? assuming that you havent had a range 6 since your money shift but you've done a few track days since then it would be interesting to see how long it took for the engine to finally give out from the bad shift.
so max rpm was 11k. going to go with that was the range 6 entry you have there at 3306. can you share what the total operating time on your engine is? assuming that you havent had a range 6 since your money shift but you've done a few track days since then it would be interesting to see how long it took for the engine to finally give out from the bad shift.
09-02-2021, 09:52 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
A miracle that it held together for another 4 track days!
Just another reason to drive a PDK. One can replace three PDK Transmissions for the cost of one engine.
Just another reason to drive a PDK. One can replace three PDK Transmissions for the cost of one engine.
Last edited by 991carreradriver; 09-02-2021 at 09:54 AM.
09-02-2021, 10:02 AM
#55
Rennlist Member
Here's how to read this:
Z201 is the total time spent in any degree of overrevs. Not the most telling, since Ranges 1-3 are generally survivable.
Z214-216 are the lethal bits. You have to go through 214 to get to 215 then 216 to hit your peak rpm of 11k, then back down to 215 and 214 on the way back. The distribution of ignitions across these three buckets, as well as the uniform timestamp at 3306.0m, confirms that you busted all 3 ranges together at the last event.
Z214 corresponds to 9,600-10,000 or average of 9,800rpm. 9,800rpm / 60 = 163rps, that is revolutions of the crank. In a four stroke engine you get 3 ignitions per crank (3 cylinders on the power cycle, the other 3 on exhaust). Each second spent in this range is about 163/3 = 54.4 ignitions. Divide that by your 192 logged ignitions and you have 3.5s in Range 3.
Same exercise for Z215 (160x at ~10,500) and Z216 (80x at ~11000) gets you 2.7s and 1.3s, respectively.
3.5+2.7+1.3 = 6.5s
Can a single money shift last 6.5s? That really got me thinking. Just now I counted out 6s on the computer clock and that is a LONG time. Possible if you were going downhill and left the clutch engaged the whole way. OR there might have been another serious overrev event into Range 6 in the past (i.e. you're looking at 6.5s accumulated over two incidents).
Either way, believe us that the ECU doesn't lie--the timestamp and ignition counts actually make sense if you think through the above. And with a faulty DME you'll not have timestamps and distributions that line up like so.
I've had silly moments aplenty too. We all learn and get better. And if it's any consolation, a 9A1 engine block cleaned up makes one hell of coffee table, and will be a real conversation piece at your next garage gathering...
Z201 is the total time spent in any degree of overrevs. Not the most telling, since Ranges 1-3 are generally survivable.
Z214-216 are the lethal bits. You have to go through 214 to get to 215 then 216 to hit your peak rpm of 11k, then back down to 215 and 214 on the way back. The distribution of ignitions across these three buckets, as well as the uniform timestamp at 3306.0m, confirms that you busted all 3 ranges together at the last event.
Z214 corresponds to 9,600-10,000 or average of 9,800rpm. 9,800rpm / 60 = 163rps, that is revolutions of the crank. In a four stroke engine you get 3 ignitions per crank (3 cylinders on the power cycle, the other 3 on exhaust). Each second spent in this range is about 163/3 = 54.4 ignitions. Divide that by your 192 logged ignitions and you have 3.5s in Range 3.
Same exercise for Z215 (160x at ~10,500) and Z216 (80x at ~11000) gets you 2.7s and 1.3s, respectively.
3.5+2.7+1.3 = 6.5s
Can a single money shift last 6.5s? That really got me thinking. Just now I counted out 6s on the computer clock and that is a LONG time. Possible if you were going downhill and left the clutch engaged the whole way. OR there might have been another serious overrev event into Range 6 in the past (i.e. you're looking at 6.5s accumulated over two incidents).
Either way, believe us that the ECU doesn't lie--the timestamp and ignition counts actually make sense if you think through the above. And with a faulty DME you'll not have timestamps and distributions that line up like so.
I've had silly moments aplenty too. We all learn and get better. And if it's any consolation, a 9A1 engine block cleaned up makes one hell of coffee table, and will be a real conversation piece at your next garage gathering...
Last edited by CRex; 09-02-2021 at 10:14 AM.
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09-02-2021, 10:08 AM
#56
the 6 speed manual in the 2018-2019 GT3 isn't worthy of being in such an otherwise fantastic car,
I had one for 1 1/2 years and switched to a 2019 GT3RS Weissach.
is Porsche dragging the same one out again for the 992 GT3?
I had one for 1 1/2 years and switched to a 2019 GT3RS Weissach.
is Porsche dragging the same one out again for the 992 GT3?
09-02-2021, 10:12 AM
#57
Here's how to read this:
Z201 is the total time engine has spent in any degree of overrevs. Not the most telling because Ranges 1-3 are really nothing and generally survivable.
Z214-216 are the lethal bits. You have to go through 214 to get to 215 then 216 to hit your peak rpm of 11k, then back down to 215 and 214 as your revs come back down. The distribution of ignitions across these three buckets, as well as the uniform timestamp at 3306.0m, would tell you this group of ignitions was likely from a single incident.
Z214 corresponds to 9,600-10,000 or average of 9,800rpm. 9,800rpm / 60 = 163rps, that is revolutions of the crank. In a four stroke engine you get 3 ignitions per crank (3 on the power cycle, the other 3 on exhaust). Therefore each second spent in this range is about 163/3 = 54.4 ignitions. Divide that by your 192 logged ignitions and you have 3.5s in Range 3.
Same exercise for Z215 (160x at ~10,500) and Z216 (80x at ~11000) gets you 2.7s and 1.3s, respectively.
3.5+2.7+1.3 = 6.5
Could a single money shift event last 6.5s? That really got me thinking. Just now I counted out 6s on the computer clock and that is a LONG time. Possible if you were going downhill and just had the clutch engaged during the whole time of the incident. OR it's also possible there's another serious overrev event into Range 6 in the past (i.e. you're looking at 6.5s accumulated over two incidents).
Either way, believe us that the ECU doesn't lie--the timestamp and ignition counts actually make sense if you think through the above.
I've had silly moments aplenty too. We all learn and get better. And if it's any consolation, a 9A1 engine block cleaned up makes one hell of coffee table and is a real conversation piece at your next garage gathering...
Z201 is the total time engine has spent in any degree of overrevs. Not the most telling because Ranges 1-3 are really nothing and generally survivable.
Z214-216 are the lethal bits. You have to go through 214 to get to 215 then 216 to hit your peak rpm of 11k, then back down to 215 and 214 as your revs come back down. The distribution of ignitions across these three buckets, as well as the uniform timestamp at 3306.0m, would tell you this group of ignitions was likely from a single incident.
Z214 corresponds to 9,600-10,000 or average of 9,800rpm. 9,800rpm / 60 = 163rps, that is revolutions of the crank. In a four stroke engine you get 3 ignitions per crank (3 on the power cycle, the other 3 on exhaust). Therefore each second spent in this range is about 163/3 = 54.4 ignitions. Divide that by your 192 logged ignitions and you have 3.5s in Range 3.
Same exercise for Z215 (160x at ~10,500) and Z216 (80x at ~11000) gets you 2.7s and 1.3s, respectively.
3.5+2.7+1.3 = 6.5
Could a single money shift event last 6.5s? That really got me thinking. Just now I counted out 6s on the computer clock and that is a LONG time. Possible if you were going downhill and just had the clutch engaged during the whole time of the incident. OR it's also possible there's another serious overrev event into Range 6 in the past (i.e. you're looking at 6.5s accumulated over two incidents).
Either way, believe us that the ECU doesn't lie--the timestamp and ignition counts actually make sense if you think through the above.
I've had silly moments aplenty too. We all learn and get better. And if it's any consolation, a 9A1 engine block cleaned up makes one hell of coffee table and is a real conversation piece at your next garage gathering...
not an expert but ist the 3306 time stamp just the last trip through the range. so there could have been pre existing 4s and 5s that would contribute to the totals? wouldnt an 11k missed shift blow through those ranges quickly and then take a little longer on the way back down? 6.5 sec seems like way too long for a single event.
09-02-2021, 10:51 AM
#58
I don’t t think anyone here is out to get you. Relax. We all feel your pain as most of us have been here before, where you are now.
Maybe have your attorney write a letter and see if they can work something out.
The advice you got from your dealer was clearly the wrong advice, so maybe play that angle?
I’m really sorry this happened to you. In the end, its you’re decision on how to proceed.
We feel your pain even though some of the above posts may not seem that way.
Good luck to you and please report back and keep us posted on your progress.
Take Rennlist comments with a grain of salt and read more into the advisory posts in this thread as opposed to the negative crap. You will come out of this fine and you’ll be back on your way in no time. Good luck and keep us posted. And relax when reading some of the stoopid posts. Concentrate on the others. Chin up my friend.
Maybe have your attorney write a letter and see if they can work something out.
The advice you got from your dealer was clearly the wrong advice, so maybe play that angle?
I’m really sorry this happened to you. In the end, its you’re decision on how to proceed.
We feel your pain even though some of the above posts may not seem that way.
Good luck to you and please report back and keep us posted on your progress.
Take Rennlist comments with a grain of salt and read more into the advisory posts in this thread as opposed to the negative crap. You will come out of this fine and you’ll be back on your way in no time. Good luck and keep us posted. And relax when reading some of the stoopid posts. Concentrate on the others. Chin up my friend.
This may be the first time I've heard the 6 speed criticized. What's wrong with it?
09-02-2021, 11:01 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
must not be worthy in a 911R, 997 4.0 and now the 992? Maybe it’s that you just don’t have the skill to use it properly…
Last edited by Jbravo23; 09-02-2021 at 11:05 AM.
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09-02-2021, 11:22 AM
#60
my experience?....Im 68 and learned on a manual at 15
Ive driven many many variations....Porsche could've done way better than the current 6 speed