CX_GT3

Looking for a better braking system upgraded to my GT3RS that I track 15-20 days a year.

Really looking between the Surface Transform CCB, the PFC Track Day pkg, or the AP-Racing brake kit. Price for all three is about the same at around 14k, I am running Girodisc with Ferodo 3.12’s and I feel satisfied with them but still want an upgrade. More biased towards the PFC or ST…

If anyone have/are running any of these systems or have anything to share, feel free to comment on the post!

CDinSing

Depends on tires you mount. Street R compounds like cups or Dunlops are still the limiting factor. I find good initial bite, controllable release and no fade with AP rotors, std calipers and Ferodo 3.12s. Peter (Trakcar) if I remember correctly saw 0.5sec from ST CCB with MR Purple at Sebring. I am not sure if that was before or after adding R7s hopefully he will add to this discussion.

Are you experiencing fade or lack of release control? What are you trying fix?

GT3 Nut

I am a fan of the ST rotors. I have them on my GT3 and just got a set for my R8.
if you are looking for the ST rotors give Red Mist Racing a call (www.redmistracing.com ).
That’s who I just got my R8 set from. Great guy to deal with.

Pdtp#16

PFC's are fantastic. Search some of the post from Tom Chan there was some good data actual track data to review.

tgibrit

I have the AP racing set up - rotors calipers and use 3.12 pads - very happy with this set up - pads changes are very easy if that makes any difference.

Tom@TPC Racing

Even though ST rotors and PFC package are priced similarly I consider the two options to be different categories of brake upgrade. The ST rotor option is a single component upgrade that uses the stock street car cast aluminum calipers. Whereas the PFC package is a full kit that features forged aluminum monoblock calipers, the same forging developed for Porsche factory race cars such as the 991 Cup and M-R Cup, with pistons sized optimally for GT3/RS master cylinder. The caliper design is essential in a full braking system since its job is to provide stability to house the pistons that apply tremendous amount of hydraulic pressure against rotors in extreme and sustained operating temperature. Having an ultra rigid caliper with pistons that are precisely machined from the same material, which will have the same expansion rate to heat will result in extremely consistent braking performance, pedal feel, and modulation during peak operating temperature. Personally, I am a huge fan of the PFC kit because I have seen zero failure from the fleet of 991 Cup cars being raced by TPC Racing from 2014 to present. Race car drivers complaint about all sort of things, LOL, but the brakes were never one. The previous gen Cup cars(997) used cast aluminum monoblock street car calipers without dust boots, they were good for its time, race drivers who switched from 997 Cup to 991 Cup can attest to the evolutionary leap in the brakes.

I have the PFC kit in my 991.1 RS and I love it. I use the PFC-11 brake pad compound(same as 991 Cup). I brake a full marker deeper than OEM at my home track with margin to spare. Here's an abridged DIY install video.


We also have the PFC kit in our 991.1 GT3 "Clubsport" build American Endurance race car. (Awesome driving by Skeen and Andrusko in the videos!)



As well as our 700 wheel hp Optima Ultimate Street Car Challenge car.


The PFC V3 rotors in the kit are same construction as the factory race cars. Very high-temp stable, they absorb and vents out lots of heat(completely opposite to carbon ceramic rotors which repels/rejects heat so all that heat from braking transfers to the pads, pistons, fluid...to eventually cook them in time, in a motorsport operating environment). Can run these rotors until the slots disappear. Heat management and caliper rigidity are primary design objectives of a motorsport braking system. It is of my opinion that PFC has got these nailed down by sharing factory-approved racing technology and components. The caliper forging, pistons, rotor metal are the same as factory race car, there's no watering down here.












Compatible for use with OEM hard line or motorsport style banjo fitting SS hose. We refer to the version with SS hose as the TPC Cup Challenge Brake Kit by PFC Brake Kit.




Let me know if you have any questions. I sell, install, and use this product.

hsb1001

I just switched from my OEM Ceramics with Pagid Pads to a very used Giro Disc setup borrowed from a friend with the new Pagid Reds. All I can say is WOW the setup is awesome and I can modulate and brake so much deeper on this old beaten up set that I couldn't do before.

Personally I would look at the ST's and how much you want to spend on changing pads/rotors ,as most of us track nuts go through rotors and pads ever other event which is where the cost becomes stupid. I am looking at the ST's purely from a cost preventative perspective as they can be refurbed and Autoquest offer loaner rotors when they get sent to be refurbed. The PFC kit looks very impressive as I have looked at it along with the Essex AP setup, it all comes down to the cost to keep replacing rotors and pads which are consumables. Ceramic ST's seem to be less harder on the pads and it appears to be a 3 to 1 ratio in terms of buying new pads like you would on steels.

I just had a ex Cup Driver take my car out at Sebring with the Giro's and new Pagid Reds, he described this setup better than a Cup Car braking system which I was very suprized to hear. I am sure the PFC and AP kits are more superior than just the Giro's but tracking continuously like we do in Florida becomes very costly on consumables.

My track buddies on steel brakes carry 2 x Rotor replacements and 2 x new Pads each weekend incase they have steel issues. The ST guys carry just a spare set of front pads and I have yet to see someone switch them out over a weekend. I see the steel guys constantly swapping pads and rotors on a 2 day weekend and re-bleeding.

QuickOne

I run the AP Racing Radi-cal kit on my .1 RS track car. It's amazing, and solved the lack of pedal feel in the factory PCCBs. Running costs are extremely low as well - even lower than the ST setup.

The only other option I'd consider would be the PFC setup, but I think they are likely on par with the AP kit.

GT3 Nut

I can't comment from experience on the PFC or AP setups but one thing that the ST rotors have in their favor is weight savings.
When my new ST rotors arrived for my R8 from redmistracing.com and I picked up the boxes off my front porch it made me smile. When I had any steel rotors delivered in the past I always reminded myself "lift with your legs" hahahaha.....

GrantG

Yeah, seems like a combo of the ST rotors with some upgraded calipers might be an interesting combo. I know Mov'it used to make calipers for these - not sure who else does...

I know the AP and PF iron rotors are significantly lighter than stock though...

Thinker23

Have AP Racing and it’s pretty damn amazing. Consistent lap after lap, lightweight, easy to change pads.

s996

I have used both the surface transform from autoquest and the Pfc systems. I have not used the ap racing system.

ST - experience- de advanced not racing, 10 track days, I purchased as oem replacement for ceramic and they were direct swap with same yellow rotor. Refurbishment at same cost as steel rotor replacement. No wear after 10 days, amazing consistent stopping ability as with oem ceramics.

pfc- now about 20 days adv de not racing, these are factory brakes for clubsport, these were tuned for car and provide a level above OEM braking from what I have tried in the past. They are amazingly consistent with little to no fade. You still have to remove rotor to change pad and one weird thing is the pads are lasting longer than the rotors. Similar ring replacement cost to all the other rotors I have purchased in past.

AP racing - I have not tried but I think the open top pad replacement would be worth the sale if the stopping power and consistency is close.

Good luck this is a tough decision and not an inexpensive one.

JRitt@essex

I agree with Tom@TPC that the ST discs are a different category of brake upgrade vs. replacing the complete brake system at the wheel end. The OEM calipers have numerous deficiencies that limit the overall system capability. Oh how we dislike you OEM calipers, let me count the ways...

1. The OEM calipers have a fixed bridge that necessitates caliper removal to change pads. It's a pain to constantly remove the caliper to change pads. The more frequently you track your car, the more of hassle it is. The bridge on our AP Racing Radi-CAL pops out with two hex head bolts on the front and one on the rear. I've had numerous 991 GT3/RS/GT2RS owners tell me that the ease of changing the pads with our kit is worth the price of admission alone! Below is a short video that shows just how easy it is.


2. Stock calipers have limited pad options. Our AP Racing Radi-CAL calipers have more pad options than the OEM calipers.

3. Stock calipers are heavy. Our AP Racing Radi-CAL calipers weigh a feathery 6.1 lbs. in the front (stock is 9.3 lbs.), and 4.9 lbs. in the rear (stock is 7.5 lbs.).






4. Stock calipers have ceramic piston caps that can crack, split, fall apart, etc. The pistons in our AP Racing calipers are ventilated stainless steel, which run cooler. The pistons also have domed backs, which makes them stiffer and enhances pedal response. Here's one of our customer's OEM piston caps:



Here are the ventilated stainless pistons in our kits:




5. Stock calipers are huge and take up valuable real estate inside the wheel, limiting wheel fitment options. Even though our front discs are 394mm in diameter, they fit inside more wheels than the OEM calipers on the OEM 380mm discs, because the AP Racing calipers are so compact.






6. The OEM calipers don't have Anti-knockback springs, but our AP Racing Radi-CAL calipers do. Knockback is a phenomenon that is common with fixed calipers. Knockback occurs when your car’s wheel, hub, and bearings deflect during cornering, allowing your brake disc to move out of sync with your caliper and brake pads. The amount of knockback varies by vehicle, and depends on the amount of deflection seen in the parts listed above. As the brake disc deflects, it actually pushes the pads away from each other, forcing the caliper pistons back into their bores. The piston seals don’t have enough tension in them to completely return the pistons to their original location. That means there is slack in the system that needs to be taken up. When you press the brake pedal, it will continue to drop until that slack is taken up.Anti-knockback springs help alleviate this situation by putting some tension on the back side of the pistons. When the disc deflects and makes contact with the pistons, the springs push the pistons back into their proper location, reducing slack in the system. That means less pedal drop and far fewer pucker-factor moments when going into heavy brake zones.

There are no major downsides to lightweight AKB spring as long as the caliper is designed to accommodate them. More specifically, AKB springs do not create any increased drag or wear on the pads and discs as long as the shape and material of the piston seals takes them into account.


7. The OEM red or yellow painted caliper finish can fade, burn, etc. The anodized finish on the AP Racing calipers is durable under track conditions and can take a beating without looking terrible.

8. AP Racing Radi-CAL has internal fluid porting, with no external crossover. Older conventional style calipers like the OEM ones have external fluid crossover tubes that carry fluid from one side of the caliper to the other. We've all seen the posts here on Rennlist in which track debris hit and damaged a caliper. It's also not uncommon for a wheel to knock a caliper during a wheel change. The internal fluid porting on the AP Racing calipers eliminates the possibility of damaging the fluid crossover, leads to fewer obstructions, fewer leaks, etc. If you look at the pics below, you'll also note the AP Racing Radi-CAL only has bleed screws on the inner caliper half, again reducing the possibility of damage when changing wheels. The stock caliper has the bleed screw right at the top in harm's way, and the big tube hanging off the bottom near the wheel barrel.




9. OEM calipers require more frequent caliper rebuilds. AP Racing Radi-CAL has high-temperature internal seals that resist heat for a long service life. The OEM calipers are much more prone to seal failure when exposed to track temps.

10. The AP Racing Radi-CAL is the most advanced caliper design on the market today, winning at all levels of motorsport (F1, NASCAR Cup, IMSA, etc.). Our system is as close as one can get to the AP Racing Radi-CAL caliper setup used on the Le Mans-winning Porsche 911 RSR factory racecar. The asymmetric shape of the Radi-CAL makes it the stiffest caliper on the market. If you look closely, you'll also see that there are more voids in, around, and between the pistons, etc. Having all the mass of the caliper moved to where it's needed most not only lowers the weight, it allows the caliper to run cooler. If you look at the pics below you'll see that everything not needed is carved away.

JRitt@essex

In addition to the issues that arise with the stock calipers, there are some other issues with going the ST replacement disc route.

1. The primary reason for going with carbon ceramic discs is weight savings. Our complete AP Racing Radi-CAL system shaves about 33 lbs. off the OEM iron system, which is close to what the ST discs would save you. While the ST discs do shave rotating mass from the discs, they still have the heavy OEM calipers bolted to them, which have the laundry list of shortcomings shown in my post above. Remember that we shave 11 lbs. just in caliper weight vs. the OEM system.
2. When shipping is factored in, the cost to resurface the ST discs is higher than it is to purchase brand new replacement iron for our system at $599 per iron disc ring front/rear. The ST discs also have to be shipped to England, which means downtime for your car, international freight, etc.
3. The OEM calipers will still degrade and look like junk after you thrash them enough on the racetrack. That's not going to entice buyers very well when you put your car up for sale on the used market.
4. Our brake kits are truly an investment. Our brake kits typically change hands on the used market for about 65-70% of what they cost new. If you spend roughly $11k on our four wheel kit, you'd typically expect to get $6,000-$7,000 back if you sold them used. That means you can buy them, enjoy them, beat them up, sell them for thousands of dollars, and still have your fresh OEM brakes sitting in your garage, ready to drop on your car when you're ready to sell it. That is absolutely not the case with OEM brake equipment. If you destroy your ceramic caliper piston caps, ruin the red or yellow painted caliper finish, or crack your OEM discs, those components are worth very little, or even nothing in many cases. After running ST discs for a few seasons on the track, I also doubt you're going to get $7,000 back out of them. Discs don't hold their value nearly as well as a complete brake system from a top-tier supplier.

As for the carbon ceramic technology itself, it has fundamental issues for racetrack use, regardless of whether it is OEM or aftermarket. I recently wrote an article on this topic:

Are carbon ceramic brake discs better than iron?

An excerpt from my article:While carbon ceramic discs do excel in street usage, their performance on the racetrack is an altogether different story. On the track, repetitive stops from high speeds generate massively higher disc temperatures vs. what could ever be legally or sanely achieved on the street. Everything below applies to not only OEM carbon ceramic discs, but to current aftermarket offerings as well.

• Oxidation at track temperatures- While they may be less resistant to warping or deformation at repeated elevated temperatures, the single biggest problem with carbon ceramic discs is that they oxidize at track temperatures. If you refer to the section above on how carbon ceramic discs are manufactured, you’ll remember that the final step is to paint a coating on the discs that protects the carbon fiber strands from burning up and turning into carbon dioxide gas at high temperatures. Unfortunately, the current technology embedded in that coating is not sufficient to protect carbon ceramic discs on today’s crop of heavy, powerful sportscars under severe track conditions. The surface coating erodes when the discs are repeatedly heated to track temperatures, and rough eruptions appear on the disc face. Those voids on the disc face indicate that your carbon ceramic discs are literally turning into gaseous form via oxidation. In some cases, the oxidation is terminal (chopped fiber discs), and the discs must be scrapped once it occurs. In other cases (continuous fiber discs), the discs can be resurfaced, but only a limited number of times and at a high cost. Carbon ceramic discs are therefore measured for wear in terms of minimum mass, rather than the traditional minimum thickness used to measure iron discs. Once the minimum mass is reached, the carbon ceramic disc is trash. While the technology continues to evolve and improve, we still regularly see carbon ceramic discs begin to severely oxidize in as few as a dozen track sessions (which can sometimes be had in a single day at the track)!
• High disc surface temperatures- The temperatures on a carbon ceramic disc face can run a couple hundred degrees C higher than a similarly sized iron disc under comparable track conditions. The result is more heat pouring into your pads, caliper pistons, piston seals, and brake fluid, which necessitates more frequent caliper rebuilds, and a higher likelihood of boiling the brake fluid.
• Low thermal conductivity- Heat does not flow through carbon as readily as it does through iron, which causes numerous issues. First, carbon ceramic discs rely on radiation from a large surface area to cool. Whereas an iron disc can leverage intricately shaped internal vanes to introduce cooling air and carry away heat, the heat is not as evenly dispersed throughout a carbon disc. Carbon ceramic discs therefore are not very effective at leveraging brake ducts. Instead, carbon ceramic discs have a very wide friction face, or swept area, to radiate as much heat as possible. Another downside to the larger swept area is that the pads required to mate to the discs are very large and expensive, as pad prices are typically proportional to size.
• Expensive and limited range of compatible brake pads- In addition to being very large and expensive,there are not many brake pad compounds that are compatible with carbon ceramic discs. The pad compound must be compatible with the specific disc material being used and can destroy the discs in a hurry if it is not. Since brake pads are a very personal choice for most track junkies, carbon ceramic discs do not provide many options for the driver to pursue a desired feel.
• Poor feel- Experienced drivers will tell you that cast iron discs provide superior pedal feel. Some drivers find that carbon ceramic discs feel abrasive at lower temperatures, and like stone with little modulation once they reach track temps. Brake pedal feel and the resulting confidence is rather important when hurtling towards a guardrail at 150mph!
• High replacement disc cost- Carbon ceramic replacement discs can be hideously expensive. If you do wear out or damage a disc, it can cost thousands of dollars to replace each one, rather than hundreds of dollars for a comparable iron disc. When running carbon ceramic discs hard on a racetrack, the odds of having to replace one or more of them increases exponentially vs. if you only drive your car on the street.
• Less weight reduction than claimed- Yes, the disc assembly is lighter.However, the wide swept area requires larger and heavier pads, as well as larger and heavier calipers.Add up the weights of the total systems and they are many times not that far apart.
• Damage-prone- Many manufactures suggest covering or padding their carbon ceramic discs when handling them, so they are not chipped or fractured. We have seen many instances in which a rock or other piece of track debris lodges itself between the caliper and disc, destroying the CCM disc. One knock when changing a wheel can ruin a disc. Additionally, some chemical wheel cleaners or abrasives used in car detailing can damage carbon ceramic discs.
• Splinters- Carbon ceramic discs should not be handled with bare hands, as they can leave carbon splinters in the skin.
• Greater sensitivity to burnishing/bedding-in- Most manufacturers have an explicit, and sometimes intricate, set of instructions for bedding-in their carbon ceramic discs. I remember reading page after page of comments from owners who were frustrated with the bedding procedure recommended for the CCM discs on their C6 ZR1. Conversely, a set of iron discs and pads can typically be bedded in as little as ten minutes on an empty stretch of road, or in minutes on a brake dyno.
• Poor wheel fitment- CCM discs generally need to be at least 25 mm larger in diameter to have comparable cooling capacity to an iron disc, and even then cooling can suffer.Huge discs limit wheel and tire selection, and force the owner to use larger, heavier wheels and tires, counteracting the weight savings offered by the discs.

Despite the promise of superior racetrack performance by vehicle manufacturers, the real-world results tell a very different tale. A quick search of Rennlist, McLaren Life, Audizine, or Corvetteforum will reveal a lengthy list of frustrated owners who have been literally and figuratively burned by carbon ceramic discs on the racetrack in one form or another. You’ll find comments about oxidation/burning up, rock chips, wheel interference, difficulty bedding, lack of pad choice, etc. We’ve seen this play out over and over again for the past twenty years since Porsche first brought PCCB to the market on the Carrera GT and 996 GT2. Some internal Porsche personnel have even finally admitted that PCCB may not be the best choice if you track your car!

AllAboutThatP

Interesting. I didn't realize the Radi-CAL caliper was smaller than OEM.

So, is there more clearance between the caliper and the wheel? This is probably minor, all things considered, but I regularly get small stones wedged between the caliper and wheel, which score the inside of the wheel. I would assume with more clearance this would become much less likely.