GT car / Salesman - Shiraaz Sookralli - Champion Porsche's VP of Marketing
09-15-2018, 02:10 PM
#901
my turn: 
I'm not sure I agree with you, key words not sure
The most harmful thing in my eyes is that this apparently is not the first time Champion has encountered a situation like this, with the R transactions prior. And they still kept SS on. If this is the second (or more) time that this has happened, I want the full might and fury of the 25+ people harmed plus attorneys plus others like me who are just pissed at Champion/PCNA to bring pitchforks and tear the dealership down to the foundation. That should never ever happen in the first place, let alone twice. You are telling me Champion knew SS did something like this prior, and then let him control a majority of GT sales?????
Their half baked apology doesn't even acknowledge the R stuff or that there may or may not be other incidents similar in nature that they were already aware of as legal documents show. I am sure there are great, wonderful, full of morals and good value people that work at Champion. Doesn't matter to me, I'm not targeting them but Champion as it always should start and end at the top. Whoever is running the show should have taken swift action by the advice of his attorney without doing anything to admit legal liability, for instance at least mention they are aware of the allegations 11-12 days ago when they first surfaced instead of waiting and perhaps seeing if they could hush this up somehow.
There are innocent mistakes people make, including myself. We are all human, we err. This is not an innocent mistake by Champion or SS in my opinion. This comes off as a fraud perpetrated by SS and Champion, or in the least Champion was ignorant/arrogant/so stupid to continue to employ SS and not only that allow him to helm GT sales apparently that they should be found fully liable as well with some good lawyering.
Been thinking about this thread, and am disappointed to see this dumpster fire fueled with such limited information. Of course, if the worst speculation proves true—but that's an if, not a fact.
I do agree that ADM is relevant, as it created an opportunity for the scam. ADM has never sat well with me, but I'm heartened to see 80%~ of survey respondents (here on RL, anyway) didn't pay ADM. Even so, it's a big enough problem (20%~ plus the door to scams that it opens) to be dealt with, but I don't think this is easy with US dealer franchise laws. Just did a story that got into PAG's attempt to take over sales in the US in the 1980s, which only strengthened the dealers' collective hand.
More importantly, I've been thinking about my interactions with people at Champion over 20 years. As I have, I can't think of a single time when an employee of Champion acted in anything other than a professional, or an exemplary, manner. I can tell you, that isn't something I can say for a lot of the aftermarket companies I've dealt with. What's that worth? Granted, my interactions have been limited to people who build race and modified street cars—and service customer cars when not doing that—as well as some folks on the marketing side, but, in hindsight, their professionalism suggests something worthwhile in the culture.
So I'm not quite ready to rule that 20-year record worthless based on the information I've seen so far. But as we all know, if you get enough people in anything, you get...people. The good, the bad, and the ugly. The important thing is how Champion deals with this, and does so without Dave Maraj. I'm watching, too, as I've been directly involved in removing advertisers from publications I've edited when we felt that they had harmed readers and were unwilling to make things right. In this case, Champion issued a statement that it will make those affected whole. Yesterday would be good, but I suppose they need to do some diligence before handing out $75,000 checks to people—for sales they may have no records for.
In the meantime, the rest is speculation that has a very real chance of hurting honest, hard-working, and completely professional people who work for Champion. My view is to take a wait and see, while feeling for those who affected here—the ones out large sums of cash. YMMV, of course...
I do agree that ADM is relevant, as it created an opportunity for the scam. ADM has never sat well with me, but I'm heartened to see 80%~ of survey respondents (here on RL, anyway) didn't pay ADM. Even so, it's a big enough problem (20%~ plus the door to scams that it opens) to be dealt with, but I don't think this is easy with US dealer franchise laws. Just did a story that got into PAG's attempt to take over sales in the US in the 1980s, which only strengthened the dealers' collective hand.
More importantly, I've been thinking about my interactions with people at Champion over 20 years. As I have, I can't think of a single time when an employee of Champion acted in anything other than a professional, or an exemplary, manner. I can tell you, that isn't something I can say for a lot of the aftermarket companies I've dealt with. What's that worth? Granted, my interactions have been limited to people who build race and modified street cars—and service customer cars when not doing that—as well as some folks on the marketing side, but, in hindsight, their professionalism suggests something worthwhile in the culture.
So I'm not quite ready to rule that 20-year record worthless based on the information I've seen so far. But as we all know, if you get enough people in anything, you get...people. The good, the bad, and the ugly. The important thing is how Champion deals with this, and does so without Dave Maraj. I'm watching, too, as I've been directly involved in removing advertisers from publications I've edited when we felt that they had harmed readers and were unwilling to make things right. In this case, Champion issued a statement that it will make those affected whole. Yesterday would be good, but I suppose they need to do some diligence before handing out $75,000 checks to people—for sales they may have no records for.
In the meantime, the rest is speculation that has a very real chance of hurting honest, hard-working, and completely professional people who work for Champion. My view is to take a wait and see, while feeling for those who affected here—the ones out large sums of cash. YMMV, of course...
The most harmful thing in my eyes is that this apparently is not the first time Champion has encountered a situation like this, with the R transactions prior. And they still kept SS on. If this is the second (or more) time that this has happened, I want the full might and fury of the 25+ people harmed plus attorneys plus others like me who are just pissed at Champion/PCNA to bring pitchforks and tear the dealership down to the foundation. That should never ever happen in the first place, let alone twice. You are telling me Champion knew SS did something like this prior, and then let him control a majority of GT sales?????
Their half baked apology doesn't even acknowledge the R stuff or that there may or may not be other incidents similar in nature that they were already aware of as legal documents show. I am sure there are great, wonderful, full of morals and good value people that work at Champion. Doesn't matter to me, I'm not targeting them but Champion as it always should start and end at the top. Whoever is running the show should have taken swift action by the advice of his attorney without doing anything to admit legal liability, for instance at least mention they are aware of the allegations 11-12 days ago when they first surfaced instead of waiting and perhaps seeing if they could hush this up somehow.
There are innocent mistakes people make, including myself. We are all human, we err. This is not an innocent mistake by Champion or SS in my opinion. This comes off as a fraud perpetrated by SS and Champion, or in the least Champion was ignorant/arrogant/so stupid to continue to employ SS and not only that allow him to helm GT sales apparently that they should be found fully liable as well with some good lawyering.
09-15-2018, 02:59 PM
#905
Race Director
Originally Posted by WantA997
Can I hypothetically use this situation as a bargaining chip to negotiate for their lichtgrun GT3?
https://www.champion-porsche.com/veh...fl-id-26040061
https://www.champion-porsche.com/veh...fl-id-26040061
Lol. With 8K miles on the car, they're still smoking some good Miami _________ (fill in the blank).
09-15-2018, 03:11 PM
#906
Three Wheelin'
Oh yes, glad you brought that one up. Our current society has embraced that credo.
I don’t see a settlement until Champion’s direct participation has been excluded. Their lawsuit is a tactic to position themselves away from the known perp providing legal cover as their opening gambit. This move also helps establish legitimacy to any insurance claim they may file.
I don’t see a settlement until Champion’s direct participation has been excluded. Their lawsuit is a tactic to position themselves away from the known perp providing legal cover as their opening gambit. This move also helps establish legitimacy to any insurance claim they may file.
09-15-2018, 03:25 PM
#909
Sorry, no. I'm not up to speed on the 911R. What's that all about?
Well said. Thank you for the well-worded post.
Nice! Now we're talking.
I really hope this whole thing can be resolved easily and quickly.
*DavehasChampionwheelsonhis911
If there is a contract executed between Buyer and Champion, then the contract is enforceable regardless of the fraud committed by the salesman. The salesman is the agent for the dealership and his signature binds the dealership. So, yes there is an enforceable contract. But that does not truly end the matter. The real question is this: What is the remedy? In a breach of contract case, there are two primary remedies. One remedy is a claim for specific performance (force the parties to do what the contract said, i.e. sell the customer the specific car that they bargained for).
The other remedy is a claim for money damages. In most cases, this would simply be a refund of the deposit paid, plus any attorneys fees and costs incurred. But, in some cases, this could also include a claim for lost profits. For example, if the customer was paying MSRP for a GT2RS and the GT2RS was actually worth $100k over MSRP, then the customer could claim lost profit damages. Although, most contracts limit "consequential damages" such as lost profits.
The remedies are mutually exclusive, You cannot force specific performance of the contract (get the car) and recover money damages (the deposit and or lost profits).
Specific performance does not seem like a real option with Porsche GT cars - simply because of the limited number of cars available. If there is no real car to sell to the Buyer, then specific performance is impossible. Thus, the Buyer is left with recovering the deposit.
While the Buyer's (or their lawyers) might not be able to connect Champion with the actual fraud, they can prevail on either a breach of contract claim or a negligence claim to recover the deposits from Champions.
Side note: I've had similar cases over the years. One case was eerily similar - my client was a pool contractor that sells and constructs swimming pools (average sale price of $150,000). A salesman for my client set up a company that was very similar in name to my client's name. The salesman would "sell" the pool and take a deposit. Then, he would negotiate the check and deposit it in his similarly named company account. So the customer thinks it has a contract and my client's agent signed the contract, so it was bound to the contract. But, my client never received the deposit. Although the only real recourse against the pool company was for refund of the deposits (or if they are stand-up like my client, they build the pool per the contract terms and have to take a loss to preserve their reputation and make the customer happy).
The other remedy is a claim for money damages. In most cases, this would simply be a refund of the deposit paid, plus any attorneys fees and costs incurred. But, in some cases, this could also include a claim for lost profits. For example, if the customer was paying MSRP for a GT2RS and the GT2RS was actually worth $100k over MSRP, then the customer could claim lost profit damages. Although, most contracts limit "consequential damages" such as lost profits.
The remedies are mutually exclusive, You cannot force specific performance of the contract (get the car) and recover money damages (the deposit and or lost profits).
Specific performance does not seem like a real option with Porsche GT cars - simply because of the limited number of cars available. If there is no real car to sell to the Buyer, then specific performance is impossible. Thus, the Buyer is left with recovering the deposit.
While the Buyer's (or their lawyers) might not be able to connect Champion with the actual fraud, they can prevail on either a breach of contract claim or a negligence claim to recover the deposits from Champions.
Side note: I've had similar cases over the years. One case was eerily similar - my client was a pool contractor that sells and constructs swimming pools (average sale price of $150,000). A salesman for my client set up a company that was very similar in name to my client's name. The salesman would "sell" the pool and take a deposit. Then, he would negotiate the check and deposit it in his similarly named company account. So the customer thinks it has a contract and my client's agent signed the contract, so it was bound to the contract. But, my client never received the deposit. Although the only real recourse against the pool company was for refund of the deposits (or if they are stand-up like my client, they build the pool per the contract terms and have to take a loss to preserve their reputation and make the customer happy).
Last week, Champion filed a civil lawsuit..... (public information):
CACE18021221 is the case number.... more details in the case documents.
https://www.browardclerk.org/Web2/CaseSearch/Results
CACE18021221 is the case number.... more details in the case documents.
https://www.browardclerk.org/Web2/CaseSearch/Results
I really hope this whole thing can be resolved easily and quickly.
*DavehasChampionwheelsonhis911
09-15-2018, 03:47 PM
#913
09-15-2018, 03:50 PM
#914
Rennlist Member
Really agree on your view of tbe ADM as an enabler.
Your comment on the great results that survey convets is true, but keep in mind that survey was quite early using a sample size of just 138 cars.
This poll needs to be taken again but it is closed.
omg...pepsi is streaming out my nose onto kybd
Your comment on the great results that survey convets is true, but keep in mind that survey was quite early using a sample size of just 138 cars.
This poll needs to be taken again but it is closed.
Been thinking about this thread, and am disappointed to see this dumpster fire fueled with such limited information. Of course, if the worst speculation proves true—but that's an if, not a fact.
I do agree that ADM is relevant, as it created an opportunity for the scam. ADM has never sat well with me,
but I'm heartened to see 80%~ of survey respondents (here on RL, anyway) didn't pay ADM.
Even so, it's a big enough problem (20%~ plus the door to scams that it opens) to be dealt with, but I don't think this is easy with US dealer franchise laws..snip... YMMV, of course...
I do agree that ADM is relevant, as it created an opportunity for the scam. ADM has never sat well with me,
but I'm heartened to see 80%~ of survey respondents (here on RL, anyway) didn't pay ADM.
Even so, it's a big enough problem (20%~ plus the door to scams that it opens) to be dealt with, but I don't think this is easy with US dealer franchise laws..snip... YMMV, of course...
