Light Weight Battery for .2 GT3???
04-20-2018, 11:44 AM
#136
Question for Antigravity: how does the Restart feature not leave one stranded if the access to the battery is still requires power? My concern would be:
1) Battery drains from car sitting too long.
2) Antigravity battery goes into "Restart" feature mode where it disconnects from the car's electrical system to prevent further discharge, waiting for user to press the Restart button.
3) User tries to even unlock the car, and it's totally dead since the battery is essentially disconnected... so user gets their key and manually unlocks the car. But they still can't pop the hood since there is no power... yes one can try and manually apply power to the fuse panel connections to allow the hood to pop, but who is carrying around that emergency battery always charged up?
So how do you get around this scenario?
1) Battery drains from car sitting too long.
2) Antigravity battery goes into "Restart" feature mode where it disconnects from the car's electrical system to prevent further discharge, waiting for user to press the Restart button.
3) User tries to even unlock the car, and it's totally dead since the battery is essentially disconnected... so user gets their key and manually unlocks the car. But they still can't pop the hood since there is no power... yes one can try and manually apply power to the fuse panel connections to allow the hood to pop, but who is carrying around that emergency battery always charged up?
So how do you get around this scenario?
Also you are absolutely correct... how the heck to you access the battery if the battery put itself to sleep in the first place and now you have no power to the car. In most cases when you turn the ignition on then off then on again you will get a re-set of the RS-30 battery.. but this is not always the case depending on some factors. So in the event you are locked out you still have to get to the battery in some cases if it won't re-set with and off and on of the key. But we make a product called the MICRO-START SPORT, and it's so small it can fit in your pocket...It's s about the size of two iphones on top of eachother... But that can also be used to energize the Fuse panel so you can power the car to open the trunk. So yes you still do have to access the RS-30 in some cases to hit the RE-START Button. But additionally we also make a Battery called the ATX-30 that actually can be set remotely by any 12v pulse... all our Powersports Batteries do that, and you can use the MICRO-START to RE-SET them or wait for our remote keyfob that we are developing and it will reset it. But that is only an 18Ah (real) battery... not as robust as the RS-30, but still quite viable if you want to lose even more wieght So those are my solutions to the issue you describe.
04-20-2018, 11:56 AM
#137
I think he addressed this in a previous post....
Also you are absolutely correct... how the heck to you access the battery if the battery put itself to sleep in the first place and now you have no power to the car. In most cases when you turn the ignition on then off then on again you will get a re-set of the RS-30 battery.. but this is not always the case depending on some factors. So in the event you are locked out you still have to get to the battery in some cases if it won't re-set with and off and on of the key. But we make a product called the MICRO-START SPORT, and it's so small it can fit in your pocket...It's s about the size of two iphones on top of eachother... But that can also be used to energize the Fuse panel so you can power the car to open the trunk. So yes you still do have to access the RS-30 in some cases to hit the RE-START Button. But additionally we also make a Battery called the ATX-30 that actually can be set remotely by any 12v pulse... all our Powersports Batteries do that, and you can use the MICRO-START to RE-SET them or wait for our remote keyfob that we are developing and it will reset it. But that is only an 18Ah (real) battery... not as robust as the RS-30, but still quite viable if you want to lose even more wieght So those are my solutions to the issue you describe.
Also you are absolutely correct... how the heck to you access the battery if the battery put itself to sleep in the first place and now you have no power to the car. In most cases when you turn the ignition on then off then on again you will get a re-set of the RS-30 battery.. but this is not always the case depending on some factors. So in the event you are locked out you still have to get to the battery in some cases if it won't re-set with and off and on of the key. But we make a product called the MICRO-START SPORT, and it's so small it can fit in your pocket...It's s about the size of two iphones on top of eachother... But that can also be used to energize the Fuse panel so you can power the car to open the trunk. So yes you still do have to access the RS-30 in some cases to hit the RE-START Button. But additionally we also make a Battery called the ATX-30 that actually can be set remotely by any 12v pulse... all our Powersports Batteries do that, and you can use the MICRO-START to RE-SET them or wait for our remote keyfob that we are developing and it will reset it. But that is only an 18Ah (real) battery... not as robust as the RS-30, but still quite viable if you want to lose even more wieght So those are my solutions to the issue you describe.
04-20-2018, 11:59 AM
#138
Sounds like your concerns would be addressed by keeping the car on a battery tender if sitting for an extended period of time. If that isn’t an option for you then I would say your anxiety for it suggests you aren’t a good candidate for the battery.
Porsche battery management in the car is really advanced. These cars don’t just sit and drain batteries. He already indicated the car can sit for 2 months without a battery tender and had no issues with starting.
Not trying to be arguementative here but these issues are addressed with keeping the car on a tender. My cars with normal batteries stay on them as they get driven intermittently. It is a matter of preventative maintenance.
I also think many people confuse the fact that the form factor size of the Li batteries correlates to reserve power. Not the case.
Chris.
I keep my car on a tender between track days...
04-20-2018, 12:05 PM
#139
Is it the newer one? Like in the pictures above? Can you give details like the weight of it and any Stickers on it? Also check the voltage on it? Just good data for me to know. How long have you owned it? Depending how long you owned it you might want to put it on a charger. It should be at around 13.2 but depending on their BMS it might drawing on it.
04-20-2018, 01:26 PM
#140
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Still, the melt-down hazard is the one aspect that has kept me from going all-in (google any of the brands + "exploded" and there are early adopter mishaps). Totally understand that these newer batteries have protections the prior ones did not but what kind of testing ensures the protections are actually reliable over the life of the unit?
Also curious how the "Thermal Protection" on your RS30 works. Thats the one feature that Voltphreaks doesn't list. Can it stop a thermal run-away? What does it do and how high is there a specific temp it kicks in at?
Thanks for all the great info on this thread.
Also curious how the "Thermal Protection" on your RS30 works. Thats the one feature that Voltphreaks doesn't list. Can it stop a thermal run-away? What does it do and how high is there a specific temp it kicks in at?
Thanks for all the great info on this thread.
On the issue regarding the thermal protection..... No , our Thermal Protection will not DIRECTLY prevent thermal runaway once it has happened because thermal runaway is happening after a certain issue happens and once it takes off it is self inducing due to the energy contained in the battery itself. But what the Thermal Protection will do is provide another level of protection so the battery won't get to the point where it is in a circumstance that may assist in creating thermal runaway. So it in fact will turn off the battery if it senses a high level of temperature which might lead to thermal runaway. So if you have the battery right next to an exhaust header at a certain temperature the battery would put itself to sleep because it knows it is in an operating environment that is too hot.
Last you are correct you can actually find quite a few examples of thermal runaway's across any of the brands but that's why we made an effort to put these protections in our latest variations of the battery....but we also still make versions without the protections because the actual Thermal Runaway is rare, and in some circumstance the units without Protections can offer some benefits like more raw power in the smallest format possible which is great for Drag Racers, or other Racer who just want light and small. Unless they do one of the things I mention above in one of the posts that causes Thermal Runaway then they really not in the position to have it happen. But in daily drivers and the average consumer who isn't monitoring the battery consistently you absolutely want the protections.
04-20-2018, 02:15 PM
#141
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@Antigravity: Thanks immesenly for all the detailed information. Count me in for the Group By, and yes I would prefer the Black Aluminum mount, but otherwise Raw Aluminum is fine. By the way, my RS is GT Silver as well, they are very rare. I have been using Lithium batteries since 2005 in some of my cars. It is very important to keep the battery reserve capacity (Ah) realistic, instead of the advertisement of higher Ah that are not achievable.Before Lithium, I was a consumer of Odyssey PC680 (a 13Ah battery), PC925, and their cheaper Lead-Acid batteries they were made from (I can't recall the generic brand). Always carried a jump starter as more often than not they would be fully discharged.On Lithium, from my 3 purchases: Braille, LithiumPros and the factory 2011 Porsche 997 GT3 RS (pictured above), only my Porsche battery is alive and well. The Braille died, the Lithium Pros died, none of these dead weights had an electronic circuit and logic to protect them from a full discharge (what you call a Battery Management System).My Porsche Lithium battery has been used in my 997 GT3 RS, my 987 Cayman S, my 991.1 Carrera S, my 991.1 Turbo S and my 991.1 GT3 RS. Porsche prints the real capacity reserve on this battery at 18Ah.<br />In my 991.1 GT3 RS the battery lasts 9 days before no longer startng the car. In my 991.1 Turbo S it only lasts 6 days (this car has massive static loads when not running, no idea why). In both my 991.1 GT3RS and 991.1 Turbo S I have Rear Wheel Steering (RWS). RWS uses a lot of battery power, as the alternator doesn't supply enough power to juice the system, RWS is especially taxing on the battery when the car is on a track day, yet my Porsche Lithium 18Ah battery has not failed when driving in these demanding scenarios..<br /><br />I weighed the stock battery in my 991.1 Turbo S, it is 58.6 lbs. My Porsche Lithium battery is only 11.3 lbs, I have yet to weigh the stock 991.1 GT3RS battery. The Porsche Lithium battery is a direct bolt-on, so if your mounting bracket for the RS-30 has the dimensions for the 991.1 GT3 RS stock battery, pretty much your RS-30 will fit every Boxster/Cayman made since 1997 and every 911 made since 1999, this is a gigantic market rather than the 991 GT3 maket, think 300+ times bigger.<br /><br />My Porsche Lithium battery is the first generation, they came out with the 2nd generation (picture already in this thread) with a different case to not have to bend cables, but more importantly the improved BMS. When my 1st gen Lithium battery from Porsche was released, they were a few warranty claims of melted Porsche batteries, no fires though. Keep in mind that Lead-Acid batteries can fail as well and melt, and burn.<br /><br />In the 1st gen battery, when the reserve capacity is getting low, the battery starts beeping, the beep is audible from outside despite of the battery being under plastic covers and inside the front trunk. Once the battery does not beep anymore, it gets to 0 vols, I guess it leaves a little reserve to not overdischarge, and my CTEK Battery Tender brings it to life again after a few hours, I have done this dozens of times. I don't use this battery daily, only for competitive events.<br /><br />I'm not sure, but I gues that the 1st gen Porsche Lithium failures could have been related to people plugging incorrect battery chargers or incorrect battery tenders on cars sitting for a long period of time in storage, with these tenders/chargers not being comptible with the Porsche Lithium battery. IIRC the 987.2 Boxster Spyder, 997.2 GT3 RS and 987.2 Cayman R were the only cars to offer this battery as an option. This battery was a $3,000 part 7 years ago.<br /><br />Your RS-30 has almost twice the reserve capacity of my Porsche Lithium battery, so I should be able to leave the car 15 days on it and still be able to start it. I will measure that once I get your RS-30. My main problem is that the maximum time I did not start/drive the RS was 9 days, and missing 15 days of RS time is no longer practical, feasible or desirable.<br /><br />It would be helpful for a RS-30 v2.0 to incliude a beep and a LED bulb that flashes when the battery is getting close to the shutdown level. My Porsche 1st Gen Lithium has the Red LED and audible beep when it is going low. I don't like to be plugging a car every day on a battery tender.v3.0: wireless charging???
Last edited by Antigravity; 04-20-2018 at 02:58 PM.
04-20-2018, 02:27 PM
#142
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I’m in for the group buy, although my .2 doesn’t arrive for 6 months.
Which brings up another question to the Antigravity representative. What is the expected life of these batteries (assuming mild-moderate use of the car, (2000-8000 miles per year)?
I will likely keep my .2 GT3 for 10 years. Will your battery be durable for 10 years? Any warranty to that effect?
Which brings up another question to the Antigravity representative. What is the expected life of these batteries (assuming mild-moderate use of the car, (2000-8000 miles per year)?
I will likely keep my .2 GT3 for 10 years. Will your battery be durable for 10 years? Any warranty to that effect?
04-20-2018, 02:37 PM
#143
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KEEP IN MIND THIS IS ONLY ON THE ATX30 NOT RS-30... That because there is a load on the battery that can effect the BMS low-voltage cut off. For example in our Ford Escape and also in our Ducati Hyper Motard... the battery has put itself to sleep because we left the lights or ignition on during testing... But it put itself to sleep because it reached a low threshold voltage.... But even though it is a sleep the actual voltage of the battery has then rejuvenated back above its low threshold point so when you turn the key off and then on again the battery in effect now has a higher voltage then when it did when it was under the load of leaving the lights or the ignition on. To give a clearer example when you crank the car to start it the voltage drops down into the 10 or 11 voltage range ... but that is only momentarily.... it's the same when you put your lights on the voltage drops.... But once you stop cranking the voltage of the battery actually bounces back. So in effect that is what is happening the voltage is bouncing back in the background and then when you turn the key on and off again it resets itself. And the reason why this may not work all the time because of the voltage was overdischarged two far in the battery won't bounce back enough... Again this is for the ATX30 which can be reset with any pulse of 12v.... the RS-30 doesn't have that feature.
Last edited by Antigravity; 04-20-2018 at 03:02 PM.
04-20-2018, 02:55 PM
#145
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Question for Antigravity: how does the Restart feature not leave one stranded if the access to the battery is still requires power? My concern would be:
1) Battery drains from car sitting too long.
2) Antigravity battery goes into "Restart" feature mode where it disconnects from the car's electrical system to prevent further discharge, waiting for user to press the Restart button.
3) User tries to even unlock the car, and it's totally dead since the battery is essentially disconnected... so user gets their key and manually unlocks the car. But they still can't pop the hood since there is no power... yes one can try and manually apply power to the fuse panel connections to allow the hood to pop, but who is carrying around that emergency battery always charged up?
So how do you get around this scenario?
1) Battery drains from car sitting too long.
2) Antigravity battery goes into "Restart" feature mode where it disconnects from the car's electrical system to prevent further discharge, waiting for user to press the Restart button.
3) User tries to even unlock the car, and it's totally dead since the battery is essentially disconnected... so user gets their key and manually unlocks the car. But they still can't pop the hood since there is no power... yes one can try and manually apply power to the fuse panel connections to allow the hood to pop, but who is carrying around that emergency battery always charged up?
So how do you get around this scenario?
So you all know.... The RS 30 can be turned "on or off"..... You press and hold the RE-START button and it can turn the RS 30 "off" if you have to store it or ship it, or you hold the RE-START button for another 10 seconds and it turns the battery "on". So what I did was I installed the battery shut the hood and didn't realize I didn't turn "on" the battery so I had nothing... and about crapped myself having done this to a newly purshased car. So to make a long story short I just used one of our micro-start products, and energized the vehicle through the fuse box panel and by grounding it on a seat bolt.... Which energized the system so I could pop the hood and turn on the RS 30.
But I understand this is a predicament for Porsches and some other cars, and its an issue I experienced myself firsthand. I know its sort of a hassle going under the steering wheel to access the fuse box red buss-bar....so all I can give you for answers to that question are...
1..... Try to keep the battery in a state of charge ..... if you have a 991 it should last roughly two months in the car without being driven.
2.... Get something like our MICRO-START and you will have a pocket sized device that can power your system, jump Start your vehicle, and charge your USB Devices or Laptops.... and keep it in your glove box if ever needed.
3.... We currently make something for power sports vehicles that I am making soon for cars.... Basically it's a wiring harness that allows you to use the MICRO-START. to power your system or jumpstart your vehicle without having to use the mini jump for clamps that come with it . It called a clampsless harness kit. We made it's so motorcyclists wouldn't have to remove their seat if they accidentally overdischarged their battery, they could just plug in our MICRO-START, and start the bike up and drive away instead of having to take off the seat and put the clamps on the battery. So my idea is I'm going to make a harness kit that is longer so that there can be a little clip just inside the front edge of the hood by windsheild and you can easily energize the system just by plugging in a micro-start or other compatible mini jump starter in.... then you have power to an area that energizes the entire cars system with enough current to work the frunk latch.... you cant often open the frunk with just a battery maintainer because it doesn't have enough amp to pop the switch if your battery is completely dead-dead.
04-20-2018, 02:59 PM
#146
Three Wheelin'
If you plan on not driving it for awhile, leave the hood popped open enough so you can open it but the light doesn’t turn on or pop the light bulb out. Simple common sense solution 
04-20-2018, 03:28 PM
#147
Rennlist Member
Are you suggesting think and do as opposed to do and think?
04-20-2018, 04:24 PM
#148
Race Director
04-20-2018, 09:35 PM
#149
Has anyone tried extending the emergency frunk release cable and moving it to a location just behind the side marker light? The light is easily removable and I doubt if a thief would think of looking in there to see if the owner relocated the cable there. I'm not sure if the cable will still work if re-routed though.
04-20-2018, 10:43 PM
#150
Addict
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Question for Antigravity...
Who makes the underlying LiFePO4 cells and where are they made? I thought all of this stuff used to come from China but maybe better sources are available now. Thanks!
Who makes the underlying LiFePO4 cells and where are they made? I thought all of this stuff used to come from China but maybe better sources are available now. Thanks!