Walter Röhrl interview (german) - "EV is deviant/abnormal"
04-08-2018, 02:16 AM
#61
Rennlist Member
I won't live long enough for the effects (good or bad) of EV to impact the environment in any significant, long term way.
So I couldn't give a ****.
So I couldn't give a ****.
04-08-2018, 04:54 AM
#62
Burning Brakes
What happened to Walter in this thread? Where did he go?
04-08-2018, 08:46 AM
#63
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at california's rates of $0.08/kwh even in reduced 30% range configuration the cost per mile is $0.034/mile - gas still is at $0.10/mile - so the EV still wins - Boston is perhaps the worse case scenario and I'm sure Nizer picked that case because his opinion is clear - no EV for him and thinks we should abandon this whole liberal scientific conspiracy - and he keeps think he will find the kill shot that proves EV's are really really bad idea....
To reiterate, my issue is not with EV's themselves but with the way the industry is trying to spin them as some free-lunch, zero-emission gift to the world and the way a lot of EV devotees actually buy that pitch and throw a hissy when anyone points out some of the issues with EV's. I'm also not particularly keen on the government mandating solutions vs letting free markets determine them, with paying utility companies extra to buy costly renewable energy, and with subsidizing EV owner's car purchases via tax rebates, but those are separate discussions that belong in the Politics & Controversy section.
Now back to Herr Rohrl....
.
Last edited by Nizer; 04-08-2018 at 09:46 AM.
04-08-2018, 09:08 AM
#64
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I got in my rental car last week and pushed the start button. Nothing happened other than the dash lights came on. After 2 minutes of confusion and searching for WTF, I almost got out and and went back to the counter to tell them my car doesn't work. I'm glad I didn't. I eventually figured out it was a hybrid and "ready to drive". I would have felt like a dumba$$.
Most of us played with Hotwheels or Matchboxes when we were kids. We all know how those toy cars sounded.....vrmmm, vrmmm as we blubbered our lips. That's how a sports car is supposed to sound. I will never buy any electric sports car. EVER! Tesla may be faster in a straight line but the first turn and they are just a road block for my Porsches.
Most of us played with Hotwheels or Matchboxes when we were kids. We all know how those toy cars sounded.....vrmmm, vrmmm as we blubbered our lips. That's how a sports car is supposed to sound. I will never buy any electric sports car. EVER! Tesla may be faster in a straight line but the first turn and they are just a road block for my Porsches.
04-08-2018, 09:20 AM
#65
04-08-2018, 11:39 AM
#66
Rennlist Member
@@Nizer - what a nice response - honestly - very un-internet of you - I'll stand corrected - and I look forward to hearing about your future EV purchases - I think mixing ICE's with EV is the perfect combination since both have pros/cons - and I agree let's return to Walter - I'm looking forward to porsche's EV entry so that it's more than straight line speed and comfort driving - I think we'll have to give up the exhaust noise however just like floppy drives…
04-08-2018, 04:48 PM
#67
Burning Brakes
04-08-2018, 04:49 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by daveo4porsche
we have to define expensive:
cost upfront is more than an equivalent 4 door sedan that does 24 mpg - Teslas are more
however if you want a daily driver that costs $0.03/mile to drive and has no maintenance and can do 0-60 in 2.6 seconds, and I get in it every morning and it's full of "gas" I'm at a loss to identify any competition in that market - and apparently so is the lux sedan market world wide with Tesla dominating the $80k + sedan market in sales…
I really really really don't miss going to the gas station.
to hear what a performance guru thinks about Tesla Model S - I refer to you hyper-car master Walter Koenigsegg
Netflix
Show: APEX
Time Stamp: 50 min 30 sec - 51 min 30 sec
this is where Walter Koenigsegg says several things:I personally find a $140,000 sedan that can do 0-60 in 2.6 seconds with auto-pilot and 100 mpg/efficiency to be a perfectly reasonable value for money proposition - and quite frankly please show me what car is as flexible/practical and as quick as a Tesla in the 1x0k space - instant torque is addicting - once you've lived with it there is no going back - it made my cup car feel slow
cost upfront is more than an equivalent 4 door sedan that does 24 mpg - Teslas are more
however if you want a daily driver that costs $0.03/mile to drive and has no maintenance and can do 0-60 in 2.6 seconds, and I get in it every morning and it's full of "gas" I'm at a loss to identify any competition in that market - and apparently so is the lux sedan market world wide with Tesla dominating the $80k + sedan market in sales…
I really really really don't miss going to the gas station.
to hear what a performance guru thinks about Tesla Model S - I refer to you hyper-car master Walter Koenigsegg
Netflix
Show: APEX
Time Stamp: 50 min 30 sec - 51 min 30 sec
this is where Walter Koenigsegg says several things:I personally find a $140,000 sedan that can do 0-60 in 2.6 seconds with auto-pilot and 100 mpg/efficiency to be a perfectly reasonable value for money proposition - and quite frankly please show me what car is as flexible/practical and as quick as a Tesla in the 1x0k space - instant torque is addicting - once you've lived with it there is no going back - it made my cup car feel slow
04-08-2018, 07:38 PM
#69
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@@Nizer - what a nice response - honestly - very un-internet of you - I'll stand corrected - and I look forward to hearing about your future EV purchases - I think mixing ICE's with EV is the perfect combination since both have pros/cons - and I agree let's return to Walter - I'm looking forward to porsche's EV entry so that it's more than straight line speed and comfort driving - I think we'll have to give up the exhaust noise however just like floppy drives…
Last edited by Nizer; 04-08-2018 at 08:00 PM.
04-08-2018, 07:53 PM
#70
Race Director
Originally Posted by daveo4porsche
Just my 10c"
no question Tesla are too expense and their savings don't add up - unless you want to "be EV" - this will change over time - the Model 3 is more compelling price wise $50k, the Chevy Bolt is really quite a good little car for $30k/240 mile range - and with Porsche's plans for the mission-e pricing out similar to a Panamera we should be good - move EV choice is necessary to move forward, and once they hit "cost" parity to buy (which isn't that far off) they have compelling per-mile cost advantages...over gas cars.
one thing most non-EV owners don't consider, and can't imagine - is that EV's have virtually no maintenance - all the things you maintain on an ICE car don't exist on an EV - the only thing I do with my Tesla is: Tires, Windshield Wipers, Brake Fluid - brakes don't wear out due to regenerative braking not using the friction pads…500,000 mile brake jobs are the target.
the _ONLY_ recommended maintenance for the Chevy Bolt from the chevy manual is a 150,000 mile coolant swap for the LiON battery - that is the ONLY factory recommended service interval for a $30k/240 mile hatchback - and tire rotations every 6,000 miles.
but yes Tesla's are too expensive - no question - and there is no "cost savings" to yet justify the incremental price difference, this will change over time…and I recomend you vote intelligently with your consumer $$'s
the good news is there are some savings - and driving an EV will not cost you more if you adapt your habits - from the analysis from the other thread the 10 year fuel costs come out as follows:
10 year fuel costs for Panamera $19,687.50 @ 24 mpg @ $3.50/gallon @ 13,500 miles/year
10 year fuel costs for Tesla 100D $5,129.90 @ 3.3 miles/kWh @ $0.1254/kWh @ 13,500 miles/year
a savings of $14,558
this does not include savings from reduced maintenance costs on the Tesla vs. the Panamera
but I will NEVER argue you're going to make up the difference in cost for initial purchase price - I will argue I prefer the Tesla P100D to the Panamera and it's quick quick off the line ;-) I was happy to pay the difference due to my perceived value in the quicker/higher-tech car that the Tesla is...but that's personal preference not rational cost analysis ;-)
no question Tesla are too expense and their savings don't add up - unless you want to "be EV" - this will change over time - the Model 3 is more compelling price wise $50k, the Chevy Bolt is really quite a good little car for $30k/240 mile range - and with Porsche's plans for the mission-e pricing out similar to a Panamera we should be good - move EV choice is necessary to move forward, and once they hit "cost" parity to buy (which isn't that far off) they have compelling per-mile cost advantages...over gas cars.
one thing most non-EV owners don't consider, and can't imagine - is that EV's have virtually no maintenance - all the things you maintain on an ICE car don't exist on an EV - the only thing I do with my Tesla is: Tires, Windshield Wipers, Brake Fluid - brakes don't wear out due to regenerative braking not using the friction pads…500,000 mile brake jobs are the target.
the _ONLY_ recommended maintenance for the Chevy Bolt from the chevy manual is a 150,000 mile coolant swap for the LiON battery - that is the ONLY factory recommended service interval for a $30k/240 mile hatchback - and tire rotations every 6,000 miles.
but yes Tesla's are too expensive - no question - and there is no "cost savings" to yet justify the incremental price difference, this will change over time…and I recomend you vote intelligently with your consumer $$'s
the good news is there are some savings - and driving an EV will not cost you more if you adapt your habits - from the analysis from the other thread the 10 year fuel costs come out as follows:
10 year fuel costs for Panamera $19,687.50 @ 24 mpg @ $3.50/gallon @ 13,500 miles/year
10 year fuel costs for Tesla 100D $5,129.90 @ 3.3 miles/kWh @ $0.1254/kWh @ 13,500 miles/year
a savings of $14,558
this does not include savings from reduced maintenance costs on the Tesla vs. the Panamera
but I will NEVER argue you're going to make up the difference in cost for initial purchase price - I will argue I prefer the Tesla P100D to the Panamera and it's quick quick off the line ;-) I was happy to pay the difference due to my perceived value in the quicker/higher-tech car that the Tesla is...but that's personal preference not rational cost analysis ;-)
04-08-2018, 10:50 PM
#71
RL Community Team
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I was actually able to read this post, understand it, and believe it. Thanks for an objective and useful bit of info. I've actually considered a bolt to get around the city and for daily driving (that's as far as I have to drive, otherwise I fly).. I'll go look at them now.
04-10-2018, 04:21 AM
#72
I am sure the statistics could be tortured to prove correct or incorrect. But I have read on a number of occasions that to produce an EV or any car is more ecologically unfriendly than using an existing car for 100k miles, gas guzzlers included. I think looking at your footprint and the number of steps, as opposed to just the footprint is very relevant.
Anyone mind if I only go on a plane for personal use every two years or less, replace my tech on the third or fourth evolution and keep my ICE without any guilt ?
I bet the wealthy mothers will all be charging new shiny electric 4x4's and feeling very green in a few years time......
Anyone mind if I only go on a plane for personal use every two years or less, replace my tech on the third or fourth evolution and keep my ICE without any guilt ?
I bet the wealthy mothers will all be charging new shiny electric 4x4's and feeling very green in a few years time......
04-10-2018, 05:33 AM
#73
Three Wheelin'
Sorry, I don't think this is the right forum for that. But I can say I have seen numbers like 19970 rpm and 918 hp on the dyno... Unfortunately I ended my employment before we cracked 20000 rpm and shortly after the 2.4l V8:s were introduced.with a lot more restrictions on geometries and also later on revlimits of first 19000 and then 18000. Pffft... 
Sorry for OT.
Sorry for OT.
We are all petrolheads in here !
04-10-2018, 01:55 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
"I am sure the statistics could be tortured to prove correct or incorrect. But I have read on a number of occasions that to produce an EV or any car is more ecologically unfriendly than using an existing car for 100k miles, gas guzzlers included. I think looking at your footprint and the number of steps, as opposed to just the footprint is very relevant.'
also given that 95% of an EV is the same as an ICE car - you're saying the production of EV AC-Inductiopn motors and the batteries are dramatically more complex and costly that the 800 part complexities of the typical ICE motor....remember EV's are simplier to manufacture than a gas car - fewer parts - more modules - the ONLY complexity/costly process is the battery - for which I grant you there is some complexity and we have yet achieved efficiencies.
there are soooo many things absent from an EV it gives you quite the total cost budget before you're back to even with an ICE: complex motor (nope), transmission, exhaust system, catalytic converters, water pumps, radiators - etc…
in my opinion if you think about it for a second - this simply can't be true - unless you're overlooking something.
this is some FUD that the establishment loves to throw out there.
04-10-2018, 02:07 PM
#75
I was saying that I had read that any car (presumably ICE, but possibly EV) is less ecologically friendly than popping gas in a used or existing one
if i had the time inclination and data points I’d have a go but doesn’t sound crazy. My point was looking at gas usage vs electric is too narrow an argument that can be extended beyond fuel car
lots if ways to be more eco. I personally have no appetite for an EV car, if I’m forced I’ll do it but it will be grudgingly
if i had the time inclination and data points I’d have a go but doesn’t sound crazy. My point was looking at gas usage vs electric is too narrow an argument that can be extended beyond fuel car
lots if ways to be more eco. I personally have no appetite for an EV car, if I’m forced I’ll do it but it will be grudgingly