991.2 GT3 manual concern
02-09-2018, 09:00 AM
#107
Burning Brakes
^THis. I really would like OP's opinion after a track day.
Comparing my late .1 PDK GT3 to .2 Manual, there is no question, .2 is way more fun on the street. OP's butt may be used to low-end torque, but that will get old very, very quick. Yes, my 4 cylinder 2.0 Alfa Giulia feels more peppy at around 2K rpm then my GT3, but who cares? GT3's RPM should not be less than 3-4K, even when driven on the streets.
In terms of sound though? Here is a clip from a recent drive with my brother. You cannot here shhtt while we are having a full on conversation. Another factor with this car is that you can be driving it at only 60 mph, but you will have a wide grin on your face. That "no substitute" quote is about this car. No car can match it, even the venerable 458 Speciale. I admit though, I have not driven the 2011 RS 4.0 or the CGT.
PS: sorry about the crappy dynamic range on the video. Who knew, old GoPro3 walks over the new GoPro6 (crappy dynamic range and audio -- this video). Cars are one thing, but I thought newer electronics should be better.
https://youtu.be/mCGRYaNzynw
Comparing my late .1 PDK GT3 to .2 Manual, there is no question, .2 is way more fun on the street. OP's butt may be used to low-end torque, but that will get old very, very quick. Yes, my 4 cylinder 2.0 Alfa Giulia feels more peppy at around 2K rpm then my GT3, but who cares? GT3's RPM should not be less than 3-4K, even when driven on the streets.
In terms of sound though? Here is a clip from a recent drive with my brother. You cannot here shhtt while we are having a full on conversation. Another factor with this car is that you can be driving it at only 60 mph, but you will have a wide grin on your face. That "no substitute" quote is about this car. No car can match it, even the venerable 458 Speciale. I admit though, I have not driven the 2011 RS 4.0 or the CGT.
PS: sorry about the crappy dynamic range on the video. Who knew, old GoPro3 walks over the new GoPro6 (crappy dynamic range and audio -- this video). Cars are one thing, but I thought newer electronics should be better.
https://youtu.be/mCGRYaNzynw
Reality is, these cars can only be really enjoyed on track where the gearing is fine. But do appreciate it would be nice to exercise your elbow and leg muscle a few more times then once at speed variations sub 66mph out in the country side but unfortunately we cant...
On further thought, perhaps should flip my incoming touring for the RS (then track only) and get a Peugeot 205 for weekend drives
.. per Mr Harris review.
02-09-2018, 09:39 AM
#108
Rennlist Member
- Sports cars are inferior on the "street" (traffic, lights, etc.). vs mid-size bmw, lexus, or MB sedan.
- 500hp is too much for full enjoyment of back-roads. 700hp (gt2rs) is literally insane and not in a good way.
- 380hp (my 6gt3) is the upper limit. 250-300hp small litter NA manual open-top (base 981 Boxster) is best, also the cheapest.
- Heavy (3300lb) and expensive ($200k) street car is inferior vs. lighter, cheaper, and safer dedicated race car for the track.
Everything else is marketing.
- 500hp is too much for full enjoyment of back-roads. 700hp (gt2rs) is literally insane and not in a good way.
- 380hp (my 6gt3) is the upper limit. 250-300hp small litter NA manual open-top (base 981 Boxster) is best, also the cheapest.
- Heavy (3300lb) and expensive ($200k) street car is inferior vs. lighter, cheaper, and safer dedicated race car for the track.
Everything else is marketing.
02-09-2018, 11:07 AM
#109
02-09-2018, 06:43 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
I put 500 miles on mine before I let it rip today a little bit on some back roads, and well, this motor is nuts. The very distinct sounds it makes between 7-9K RPM is other-worldly. It's intoxicating.
Can't wait to get this beast to the track. Get some miles on it, and get on it!
Can't wait to get this beast to the track. Get some miles on it, and get on it!
02-09-2018, 07:13 PM
#111
Rennlist Member
Drove this again today and I am appreciating the around town docile driving experience with comfort suspension and lack of bottom end tourque for city driving.
I then took on some tight country roads on the way home and let the thing rev. I would suggest it works best between 5-7500 REVS, 8000 plus and the tourq drops and it just screams and it screams.
I still feel the gears are too long as to get the responsiveness I needed to be in either 1st or 2nd gear only . 3rd gear was just comfort driving with lack of tourque. 3rd gear high REVS way too quick ..
The handling is very good and the more I get use to the car I'll be able to let it flow more and trust it.
Th really good news is that it had the same effect as an ambulance ............................ people pulled over to let me pass.. the engine lets them know your coming
I then took on some tight country roads on the way home and let the thing rev. I would suggest it works best between 5-7500 REVS, 8000 plus and the tourq drops and it just screams and it screams.
I still feel the gears are too long as to get the responsiveness I needed to be in either 1st or 2nd gear only . 3rd gear was just comfort driving with lack of tourque. 3rd gear high REVS way too quick ..
The handling is very good and the more I get use to the car I'll be able to let it flow more and trust it.
Th really good news is that it had the same effect as an ambulance ............................ people pulled over to let me pass.. the engine lets them know your coming
02-09-2018, 11:59 PM
#113
Rennlist Member
Torque is addictive, but so is NA linear power. When I'm on my GT500 I can't get over the rush of the low end torque. But when I'm in my 981 Spyder, that drivetrain combo feels pretty addictive too. Especially with the sweet as pie shifter.
Now, what doesn't feel addictive to me is turbo lag. You can keep your .2 GTSs and Turbo Ss.
Now, what doesn't feel addictive to me is turbo lag. You can keep your .2 GTSs and Turbo Ss.
02-10-2018, 12:55 AM
#114
Rennlist Member
02-10-2018, 09:42 AM
#115
Three Wheelin'
karter34 (OP) is absolutely spot on with his observation! For the majority of MT .2 GT3 owners who don't track their cars and drive it mostly on the street, 95% of their satisfaction will come from the FEELING of being in a GT3 and rowing gears while only 5% of their satisfaction will come from actually wringing out the car's potential. On the street, in most driving situations, the GT3 MT is just 'meh' (who actually keeps their revs above 5K on the street for any length of time). How do I know, I took a ride in a buddy's MT .2 GT3 and he complained about the EXACT SAME THING (but he said he wouldn't post about it on Rennlist for fear of arousing the "Rennlist tribe" - his words -, who have placed the return of the MT in the GT3 on such a pedestal). The MT .2 GT3 needs to be opened up to be truly enjoyed and Porsche knew it. The release of the MT was just a $$$-grab for Porsche to generate buzz for the mid-cycle facelift 991 GT3, as the 25HP+/14TQ+, new aero and new tire wouldn't have been enough to get anyone interested. It was a calculated campaign to cash in on the buzz of the 911R (and along with the 10yr/120K warranty, quell the ghost of the early 991.1 GT3 engine issues). Doubt it? Look at the early lackluster feelings about the .2 GT3RS...'meh' with its 20HP+ bump and plasticky bits! 'Meh' would have been the same response the .2 GT3 would have received if the MT wasn't an option.
At the track, the MT is a joy and provides full engagement. On the street however, it is less than optimal and many are blurring the line between being happy at simply being in a MT GT3 for the sake of the MT and being happy at the driving experience it ACTUALLY provides. Frankly, the driving experience on the street is not that great, A Manual Transmission in a shorter geared and less higher revving Porsche would be 1,000x more engaging! I love all GT3s but we need to be honest about the driving experience, on the street in this car. We are not knocking the car, just being honest about one aspect of the driving experience. The overall car is a fantastic BEAST. However there is a reason Porsche isn't bringing the MT back in the RS nor likely in future GT3 models...
At the track, the MT is a joy and provides full engagement. On the street however, it is less than optimal and many are blurring the line between being happy at simply being in a MT GT3 for the sake of the MT and being happy at the driving experience it ACTUALLY provides. Frankly, the driving experience on the street is not that great, A Manual Transmission in a shorter geared and less higher revving Porsche would be 1,000x more engaging! I love all GT3s but we need to be honest about the driving experience, on the street in this car. We are not knocking the car, just being honest about one aspect of the driving experience. The overall car is a fantastic BEAST. However there is a reason Porsche isn't bringing the MT back in the RS nor likely in future GT3 models...
But rest asured, the PDK isn't perfect either. While being a truely great car on desolate winding roads and on short racetracks where you can let it rip, it isn't the second coming of Chist everyone wants us to believe it is. On the faster tracks with downhills, off cambers and sustained high speed corners, it feels too soft, understeery, and sometimes downright inconsistent in its behavior. Stock MSPSC2N1 and/or geometry are not up to the task in my (probably worthless) opinion and I'm still not sure about RWS. Given the choice I would ditch the RWS just for my own piece of mind, one less variable to have doubts about !
YMMV
02-10-2018, 10:09 AM
#116
I'm a new Porschephile and an even newer viewer of this site. Certainly enjoying learning a lot from everyone's experiences and knowledge on these cars. I've had only one Atlanta experience and no track time but I love manual boxes. Seven manual Vettes, a NissanZ, and two Mazdas. Recently a '16 Spyder and '18 GTS Cab in manual. I love the feel of the Porsche manuals every though the Spyder and 911 boxes and pedals feel so different. I'm not the kind of guy who loves the look of a wing on a street car (hence Spyder and no GT4 for me). Therefore I myself would not buy a GT3.1 no matter how it drove or what it sounded like. Now the new GT3 Touring might be right up my alley. As such I just was able to secure a build spot for what I consider a very modest adm. From all the talk I'm not sure if I'll find it awesome or meh on the street compared to the other two I have. Probably after a few months either the GT3 or GTS will go, but I look forward to the personal experiment. (The Spyder is never going! Lol)
Last edited by Closertotruth; 02-10-2018 at 10:10 AM. Reason: Spelling
02-10-2018, 11:02 AM
#117
Platinum Dealership
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I'm probably just jaded enough that can put it in black and white:
The Spyder is really the last manual car that you can rip and hoon in 3rd gear off the track- everything else besides maybe the R is not just geared for autobahn blasts but also has so much rear tire that the "edge" is insane. The Spyder and the R have just enough LACK of rear grip that the cars dance around a bit. Makes it more FUN. Too much grip can be a back thing. Sometimes you need a little squishy squish to get to the happy zone behind the wheel.
The GT4: people complained about gearing, about nose lift being absent, and not being able to order buckets at one point. Nobody complained about the gear throw, the brakes, the torque, the price tag, or the chassis under 9/10. Great road car. For 100k the GT4 and Spyder are the best 100k msrp cars porsche has made since the good ole days.
The GT3.1 people complained about the recall, the inability to order buckets at the time (later solved) the lack of torque, the lack of manual. Nobody complained about the sound, HP, the redline, the steering, the brakes, or the lap times that PDK helped produce.
The new manual GT3 has 60ft/lbs less torque than the GTS. The GTS has turbos. The Turbo has over 500 ft/lbs at 2750 rpm and will make any GT3 from any generation feel slow at 3k rpms.
The 458 (one of the previous posters) is very high end power and no torque. Yes it has some torque from being a v8 but not compared to a turbo. It's like driving the new GTS. What you hear from the Ferrari is a valve that opens at 3k RPM that makes it sound faster. 458's are slower in practical purposes than a GT3.2. But they sound more exotic. I'd say the new GTS is significantly faster than a 458 as well. But once again the 458 has some skinny tires and loud noises...so it's fun. VERY FUN.
RS.1 people complained about the funky torque profile (dip at 4200rpm) the scoops on the side, the ADM, the diminishing returns ("why should I pay 100k more for an RS?") and that realistically the lap times were actually so similar it comes down to driver on a GT3 vs RS comparo. Nobody complained about the gearbox, the amazing grip, how much easier it was to drive on track because of rear steering, the brakes, or the carbon bits. The GT3RS has SO MUCH TIRE. Same tire sizes as 918!! That in combo with the rear steering means you have to be 2x posted speed limit to feel dangerous. The car is so capable that below 140mph there is zero doubt the car can do as intended. Technically it's a tour de force. But it still has holes in the torque curve compared to mclaren ($$$$) ferrari ($$$$) AMG GTR (same relative price) z06, etc.
But that's because those are all forced induction v8's! Of course a FI V8 will have more motor. That's the whole ethos of those cars: throw more power at it.
The new GT3 manual has a dual mass flywheel. If it had the R's single mass flywheel it would be more fun. It's geared to do 200. So, yes at 80mph it might be a little undramatic in 4th gear. If it had skinnier or less grippy rear tires, it would be more fun but also easier to crash. Trade offs.
There is no perfect car for 175,000. Every car will have a weakness or a lack of practicality or frailty or something. But as a whole GT3's really do so many things well it's the best compromise for the enthusiast Driver's. Space, power, build quality, track durability, etc.
A perfect car would be at least 500,000
The Spyder is really the last manual car that you can rip and hoon in 3rd gear off the track- everything else besides maybe the R is not just geared for autobahn blasts but also has so much rear tire that the "edge" is insane. The Spyder and the R have just enough LACK of rear grip that the cars dance around a bit. Makes it more FUN. Too much grip can be a back thing. Sometimes you need a little squishy squish to get to the happy zone behind the wheel.
The GT4: people complained about gearing, about nose lift being absent, and not being able to order buckets at one point. Nobody complained about the gear throw, the brakes, the torque, the price tag, or the chassis under 9/10. Great road car. For 100k the GT4 and Spyder are the best 100k msrp cars porsche has made since the good ole days.
The GT3.1 people complained about the recall, the inability to order buckets at the time (later solved) the lack of torque, the lack of manual. Nobody complained about the sound, HP, the redline, the steering, the brakes, or the lap times that PDK helped produce.
The new manual GT3 has 60ft/lbs less torque than the GTS. The GTS has turbos. The Turbo has over 500 ft/lbs at 2750 rpm and will make any GT3 from any generation feel slow at 3k rpms.
The 458 (one of the previous posters) is very high end power and no torque. Yes it has some torque from being a v8 but not compared to a turbo. It's like driving the new GTS. What you hear from the Ferrari is a valve that opens at 3k RPM that makes it sound faster. 458's are slower in practical purposes than a GT3.2. But they sound more exotic. I'd say the new GTS is significantly faster than a 458 as well. But once again the 458 has some skinny tires and loud noises...so it's fun. VERY FUN.
RS.1 people complained about the funky torque profile (dip at 4200rpm) the scoops on the side, the ADM, the diminishing returns ("why should I pay 100k more for an RS?") and that realistically the lap times were actually so similar it comes down to driver on a GT3 vs RS comparo. Nobody complained about the gearbox, the amazing grip, how much easier it was to drive on track because of rear steering, the brakes, or the carbon bits. The GT3RS has SO MUCH TIRE. Same tire sizes as 918!! That in combo with the rear steering means you have to be 2x posted speed limit to feel dangerous. The car is so capable that below 140mph there is zero doubt the car can do as intended. Technically it's a tour de force. But it still has holes in the torque curve compared to mclaren ($$$$) ferrari ($$$$) AMG GTR (same relative price) z06, etc.
But that's because those are all forced induction v8's! Of course a FI V8 will have more motor. That's the whole ethos of those cars: throw more power at it.
The new GT3 manual has a dual mass flywheel. If it had the R's single mass flywheel it would be more fun. It's geared to do 200. So, yes at 80mph it might be a little undramatic in 4th gear. If it had skinnier or less grippy rear tires, it would be more fun but also easier to crash. Trade offs.
There is no perfect car for 175,000. Every car will have a weakness or a lack of practicality or frailty or something. But as a whole GT3's really do so many things well it's the best compromise for the enthusiast Driver's. Space, power, build quality, track durability, etc.
A perfect car would be at least 500,000
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02-10-2018, 11:26 AM
#118
Rennlist Member
I'm probably just jaded enough that can put it in black and white:
The Spyder is really the last manual car that you can rip and hoon in 3rd gear off the track- everything else besides maybe the R is not just geared for autobahn blasts but also has so much rear tire that the "edge" is insane. The Spyder and the R have just enough LACK of rear grip that the cars dance around a bit. Makes it more FUN. Too much grip can be a back thing. Sometimes you need a little squishy squish to get to the happy zone behind the wheel.
The GT4: people complained about gearing, about nose lift being absent, and not being able to order buckets at one point. Nobody complained about the gear throw, the brakes, the torque, the price tag, or the chassis under 9/10. Great road car. For 100k the GT4 and Spyder are the best 100k msrp cars porsche has made since the good ole days.
The GT3.1 people complained about the recall, the inability to order buckets at the time (later solved) the lack of torque, the lack of manual. Nobody complained about the sound, HP, the redline, the steering, the brakes, or the lap times that PDK helped produce.
The new manual GT3 has 60ft/lbs less torque than the GTS. The GTS has turbos. The Turbo has over 500 ft/lbs at 2750 rpm and will make any GT3 from any generation feel slow at 3k rpms.
The 458 (one of the previous posters) is very high end power and no torque. Yes it has some torque from being a v8 but not compared to a turbo. It's like driving the new GTS. What you hear from the Ferrari is a valve that opens at 3k RPM that makes it sound faster. 458's are slower in practical purposes than a GT3.2. But they sound more exotic. I'd say the new GTS is significantly faster than a 458 as well. But once again the 458 has some skinny tires and loud noises...so it's fun. VERY FUN.
RS.1 people complained about the funky torque profile (dip at 4200rpm) the scoops on the side, the ADM, the diminishing returns ("why should I pay 100k more for an RS?") and that realistically the lap times were actually so similar it comes down to driver on a GT3 vs RS comparo. Nobody complained about the gearbox, the amazing grip, how much easier it was to drive on track because of rear steering, the brakes, or the carbon bits. The GT3RS has SO MUCH TIRE. Same tire sizes as 918!! That in combo with the rear steering means you have to be 2x posted speed limit to feel dangerous. The car is so capable that below 140mph there is zero doubt the car can do as intended. Technically it's a tour de force. But it still has holes in the torque curve compared to mclaren ($$$$) ferrari ($$$$) AMG GTR (same relative price) z06, etc.
But that's because those are all forced induction v8's! Of course a FI V8 will have more motor. That's the whole ethos of those cars: throw more power at it.
The new GT3 manual has a dual mass flywheel. If it had the R's single mass flywheel it would be more fun. It's geared to do 200. So, yes at 80mph it might be a little undramatic in 4th gear. If it had skinnier or less grippy rear tires, it would be more fun but also easier to crash. Trade offs.
There is no perfect car for 175,000. Every car will have a weakness or a lack of practicality or frailty or something. But as a whole GT3's really do so many things well it's the best compromise for the enthusiast Driver's. Space, power, build quality, track durability, etc.
A perfect car would be at least 500,000
The Spyder is really the last manual car that you can rip and hoon in 3rd gear off the track- everything else besides maybe the R is not just geared for autobahn blasts but also has so much rear tire that the "edge" is insane. The Spyder and the R have just enough LACK of rear grip that the cars dance around a bit. Makes it more FUN. Too much grip can be a back thing. Sometimes you need a little squishy squish to get to the happy zone behind the wheel.
The GT4: people complained about gearing, about nose lift being absent, and not being able to order buckets at one point. Nobody complained about the gear throw, the brakes, the torque, the price tag, or the chassis under 9/10. Great road car. For 100k the GT4 and Spyder are the best 100k msrp cars porsche has made since the good ole days.
The GT3.1 people complained about the recall, the inability to order buckets at the time (later solved) the lack of torque, the lack of manual. Nobody complained about the sound, HP, the redline, the steering, the brakes, or the lap times that PDK helped produce.
The new manual GT3 has 60ft/lbs less torque than the GTS. The GTS has turbos. The Turbo has over 500 ft/lbs at 2750 rpm and will make any GT3 from any generation feel slow at 3k rpms.
The 458 (one of the previous posters) is very high end power and no torque. Yes it has some torque from being a v8 but not compared to a turbo. It's like driving the new GTS. What you hear from the Ferrari is a valve that opens at 3k RPM that makes it sound faster. 458's are slower in practical purposes than a GT3.2. But they sound more exotic. I'd say the new GTS is significantly faster than a 458 as well. But once again the 458 has some skinny tires and loud noises...so it's fun. VERY FUN.
RS.1 people complained about the funky torque profile (dip at 4200rpm) the scoops on the side, the ADM, the diminishing returns ("why should I pay 100k more for an RS?") and that realistically the lap times were actually so similar it comes down to driver on a GT3 vs RS comparo. Nobody complained about the gearbox, the amazing grip, how much easier it was to drive on track because of rear steering, the brakes, or the carbon bits. The GT3RS has SO MUCH TIRE. Same tire sizes as 918!! That in combo with the rear steering means you have to be 2x posted speed limit to feel dangerous. The car is so capable that below 140mph there is zero doubt the car can do as intended. Technically it's a tour de force. But it still has holes in the torque curve compared to mclaren ($$$$) ferrari ($$$$) AMG GTR (same relative price) z06, etc.
But that's because those are all forced induction v8's! Of course a FI V8 will have more motor. That's the whole ethos of those cars: throw more power at it.
The new GT3 manual has a dual mass flywheel. If it had the R's single mass flywheel it would be more fun. It's geared to do 200. So, yes at 80mph it might be a little undramatic in 4th gear. If it had skinnier or less grippy rear tires, it would be more fun but also easier to crash. Trade offs.
There is no perfect car for 175,000. Every car will have a weakness or a lack of practicality or frailty or something. But as a whole GT3's really do so many things well it's the best compromise for the enthusiast Driver's. Space, power, build quality, track durability, etc.
A perfect car would be at least 500,000
I will add (as you touched on) that all of the cars mentioned above are incredibly potent and if driven to a level to "excite" on the street, you have a second or two before you are in go straight to jail mode. What does set them apart is the perception of speed. Your inner ear and brain are processing the acceleration forces, but when coupled with the right sounds, the overall experience isn't just linearly better but exponentially improved. The car just feels more exciting at lower speeds. This feeling is really what people are after on the street. Besides my 981 spyder, a car (in stock form) that surprisingly gave me that feeling was the M2. My 991.2 GTS (manual) did nothing for me. The exhaust was unbelievably drone-y and though it was an undeniably capable car, left me wanting so much more...especially since the gearbox was from another planet compared to the GT4 or GT3.
I think the OP's overall experience withe the car will be dramatically improved with an exhaust modification (something as simple as a center bypass).
02-10-2018, 11:43 AM
#120
Race Director
Good post C.J. Didn’t Chris Harris drive the 991.1 GT3 and the 458 Speciale on track, and the times were almost identical? In fact, if i remember that video correctly, the lap time set by the Speciale was when it wasn’t raining, while the wipers were going the whole time in the GT3. Extremely capable cars for less that $200k.