2018 Rolex 24 from bad to worse
01-28-2018 | 09:53 PM
#46
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Back home from Daytona now and I must admit a consistent subject of discussion over the weekend was the future of the na engine. Spoke with many but the invariable sympathies and hopes were xummed up when the Corvettes started up on the grid during the walk through....hair raising. fgt cars jumped up fast but the RSRs were right behind the vertex for a good part of Saturday and the sound of those 4 coming into turn 1 and exiting into 6 drowned out the entire track......all this to say......I'm ok with Ford's success (with or without BOP , etc questions), but if it takes a little longer for turbo or hybrid to find the rs, all the better.……left the track thinking I'm glad I've got my rs and can't wait for April weather!
01-28-2018 | 10:20 PM
#48
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Ford races the FGT wasn't to sell more street going FGT, they don't need the racing help to sell those, and those are only made just so they can race the FGT in the first place. The whole point was to promote the truck engine inside, the EcoBoost V6 that's in most of the F150. With GM and Chrysler sticking to V8s, Ford needed to prove to the world that their punty V6 is capable and strong enough.
Porsche races to sell cars too, but at least they are not trying to sell truck engines. The RSR, GT3R's silhouette is unmistakably 911, the engine has a direct lineage to the GT engines in the GT3. Since most people won't be able to walk into a showroom and buy a GT3, they can and will settled for a 911 C2 or C4, C2S or C4S, GTS or Turbo, coupe or convertibles, or even Targa.
Walliser is sort of stuck with the NA engine for the time being, its HP output is good enough, but the torque deficit is what makes them uncompetitive, at least in the dry. In wet or cold temperature, the 911RSR runs circles around the other cars for some reason.
Could they be competitive going turbo engines? Perhaps, but the BoP will always be the big question mark.
Here is an interesting thing I learnt from Le Mans from one of the Multimatic guys. The Ford GTs were BoP-ed into running next to nothing boost, yet they still almost won, that's how fast the FGTs are.
Porsche races to sell cars too, but at least they are not trying to sell truck engines. The RSR, GT3R's silhouette is unmistakably 911, the engine has a direct lineage to the GT engines in the GT3. Since most people won't be able to walk into a showroom and buy a GT3, they can and will settled for a 911 C2 or C4, C2S or C4S, GTS or Turbo, coupe or convertibles, or even Targa.
Walliser is sort of stuck with the NA engine for the time being, its HP output is good enough, but the torque deficit is what makes them uncompetitive, at least in the dry. In wet or cold temperature, the 911RSR runs circles around the other cars for some reason.
Could they be competitive going turbo engines? Perhaps, but the BoP will always be the big question mark.
Here is an interesting thing I learnt from Le Mans from one of the Multimatic guys. The Ford GTs were BoP-ed into running next to nothing boost, yet they still almost won, that's how fast the FGTs are.
Hmmm, Ford makes a GT car that wins that you can't buy (at least not without being "selected" by them) and Porsche makes a GT car that doesn't win and that you can buy but only after they demand huge ADM's.
Is it me or is something wrong with this picture?
Agreed. Days of NA being competitive are over. Begs the question if NA's can't be competitive maybe I give up RS and go for 488 and call it a day. Candidly, if I'm putting out $200 large + on a "GT" car with race pedigree from a company with rich race history I want a GT car that's competitive with it's competition....that's part of price isn't it? Isn't its ability to win as important as PTS, CXX, color coordinated air vents etc...... I can go buy a C7 Z06 for $80K with the Z06 package whose GT counterpart consistently finishes in the money and is compeititive.
That's part of the prestige, panache' and aura of owning a Porsche GT car...isn't it??? Owning a car whose motorsport counterpart is a winner or at least competitive?
If all they are doing is running 4 seconds off the pace and sweeping up the rear PAG better get it's chit together otherwise alot of guys will lose interest in chasing a car on the showroom floor on Mondays whose motorsport counterpart is non competitive on Saturday and Sunday. My sentiment anyway. Makes it less apetitizing to fight the crowds, beg, borrow, steal and trade first born for a car that can't even win. Oh, and offer up the wife for a night if they offer you PTS. B.S. if you ask me.
I hope Mr. Walliser and AP are reading this thread. ...Guys, field a car that wins or is at least competitive. I don't want to pay 2.5 times the price of a competitive Chebby and ADMs to boot for a loser. NA or no NA. Do what has to be done to win. People aren't interested in losers.
I was thinking of going to the Rolex despite a busy schedule. I would have been seriously dissapointed and frustrated had I gone. Glad I didn't. At least I was able to turn the T.V. off and go back to my desk.
Oh, well. At least I do own gen II FGT.
Is it me or is something wrong with this picture?
Agreed. Days of NA being competitive are over. Begs the question if NA's can't be competitive maybe I give up RS and go for 488 and call it a day. Candidly, if I'm putting out $200 large + on a "GT" car with race pedigree from a company with rich race history I want a GT car that's competitive with it's competition....that's part of price isn't it? Isn't its ability to win as important as PTS, CXX, color coordinated air vents etc...... I can go buy a C7 Z06 for $80K with the Z06 package whose GT counterpart consistently finishes in the money and is compeititive.
That's part of the prestige, panache' and aura of owning a Porsche GT car...isn't it??? Owning a car whose motorsport counterpart is a winner or at least competitive?
If all they are doing is running 4 seconds off the pace and sweeping up the rear PAG better get it's chit together otherwise alot of guys will lose interest in chasing a car on the showroom floor on Mondays whose motorsport counterpart is non competitive on Saturday and Sunday. My sentiment anyway. Makes it less apetitizing to fight the crowds, beg, borrow, steal and trade first born for a car that can't even win. Oh, and offer up the wife for a night if they offer you PTS. B.S. if you ask me.
I hope Mr. Walliser and AP are reading this thread. ...Guys, field a car that wins or is at least competitive. I don't want to pay 2.5 times the price of a competitive Chebby and ADMs to boot for a loser. NA or no NA. Do what has to be done to win. People aren't interested in losers.
I was thinking of going to the Rolex despite a busy schedule. I would have been seriously dissapointed and frustrated had I gone. Glad I didn't. At least I was able to turn the T.V. off and go back to my desk.
Oh, well. At least I do own gen II FGT.
Last edited by Whoopsy; 01-28-2018 at 11:07 PM.
01-28-2018 | 10:55 PM
#49
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Whoopsy makes great points...
The FGT is so damn slippery. It was designed for LeMans and long high speed tracks. I don't think there is anything that special about the powertrain or the rest of the car. It's an aero monster. Below is the final BOP adjustments after the ROAR. Looks like the FGT got added drag for the 24! Didn't even matter. Here are the other fuel capacity and rate adjustments. Did they take 3 liter's away from the RSR? and less rate? And the FGT got added 2 liter's and more flow? Given the success of the car that seems a little much. Any experts care to comment?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Corvette's C7.R (+1L, 91L total), Ford's GT (+2L, 91L total, and +1.0mm), and Porsche's 911 RSR (-3L, 92L total, -1.0mm) also have capacity or flow changes in store for their cars. Only Ferrari's 488 GTE was left out of fuel-related adjustments.
On the aero front, Corvette will lose top speed with a taller minimum rear wing angle (up from 0deg to 2deg) and Ford has also been hit with the same change (up from 2deg to 5deg).
The FGT is so damn slippery. It was designed for LeMans and long high speed tracks. I don't think there is anything that special about the powertrain or the rest of the car. It's an aero monster. Below is the final BOP adjustments after the ROAR. Looks like the FGT got added drag for the 24! Didn't even matter. Here are the other fuel capacity and rate adjustments. Did they take 3 liter's away from the RSR? and less rate? And the FGT got added 2 liter's and more flow? Given the success of the car that seems a little much. Any experts care to comment?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Corvette's C7.R (+1L, 91L total), Ford's GT (+2L, 91L total, and +1.0mm), and Porsche's 911 RSR (-3L, 92L total, -1.0mm) also have capacity or flow changes in store for their cars. Only Ferrari's 488 GTE was left out of fuel-related adjustments.
On the aero front, Corvette will lose top speed with a taller minimum rear wing angle (up from 0deg to 2deg) and Ford has also been hit with the same change (up from 2deg to 5deg).
Last edited by Mr. Adair; 01-28-2018 at 11:11 PM.
01-28-2018 | 11:11 PM
#50
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BoP is such a load of crap though. When will these sanctioning bodies get it through their thick skulls that they need to let the manufacturers build the fastest cars they can and let them all duke it out. Can-Am all over again.....
Racing like that is what spawned 917/30s. Who gives a crap about fuel efficiency in racing.
Racing like that is what spawned 917/30s. Who gives a crap about fuel efficiency in racing.
01-28-2018 | 11:37 PM
#51
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01-28-2018 | 11:43 PM
#52
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Just got back from Daytona. With all due respect to the distinguished posters here to me this was a massive case of sandbagging by Ford or sheer incompetence by whoever is in charge of BOP, or someone’s desire to have Ford run the table. The FGTs were not able to “win” the pole but when the green flag came down they were just gone. After the third lap several of us who were there agreed that it was Ford’s race. After three mere laps they had already opened a huge gap on all the other cars. Even Corvette was like two laps down at the end.
It is interesting to note that the best laps laid down by the FGTs were similar or even slower than Ferrari. Our cars, however, were between a half and a nearly full second slower. That has nothing to do with the engine but all with BOP. Yes, our cars are slower pulling out of corners but they do corner better. Otherwise how would one explain similar best laps? What seemed uncanny was the FGTs ability to lay down fast lap after fast lap with nearly mechanical perfection. I don’t think their drivers are any better than those on the other teams. There has to be something that allows them that consistency. I will blame our poor performance, primarily, on BOP. It did seem our guys were driving very aggressively trying to make up the deficit. That makes up a good recipe for errors.
As to the Lambo that won GTD, if IRC that car was sent to the back of the grid because it failed inspection after qualifying (it failed the stall test i.e., air is coming into the engine from some other area rather than the intake). Yet it came all the back to win....hmmm.
Maybe I am just a conspiracy theorist or just being skeptical. Just saying...
It is interesting to note that the best laps laid down by the FGTs were similar or even slower than Ferrari. Our cars, however, were between a half and a nearly full second slower. That has nothing to do with the engine but all with BOP. Yes, our cars are slower pulling out of corners but they do corner better. Otherwise how would one explain similar best laps? What seemed uncanny was the FGTs ability to lay down fast lap after fast lap with nearly mechanical perfection. I don’t think their drivers are any better than those on the other teams. There has to be something that allows them that consistency. I will blame our poor performance, primarily, on BOP. It did seem our guys were driving very aggressively trying to make up the deficit. That makes up a good recipe for errors.
As to the Lambo that won GTD, if IRC that car was sent to the back of the grid because it failed inspection after qualifying (it failed the stall test i.e., air is coming into the engine from some other area rather than the intake). Yet it came all the back to win....hmmm.
Maybe I am just a conspiracy theorist or just being skeptical. Just saying...
01-28-2018 | 11:43 PM
#53
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BoP is such a load of crap though. When will these sanctioning bodies get it through their thick skulls that they need to let the manufacturers build the fastest cars they can and let them all duke it out. Can-Am all over again.....
Racing like that is what spawned 917/30s. Who gives a crap about fuel efficiency in racing.
Racing like that is what spawned 917/30s. Who gives a crap about fuel efficiency in racing.
01-29-2018 | 12:08 AM
#55
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Can no longer say at the Ford GT has the advantage of being a race car that was homlogated for the street in light of the fact that the RSR is a also race car but hasn’t ben homlogated for the street nor have they even pretended to. The C7R always runs strong. If there weren’t so many damn Corvettes I would be more interested in buying one. I do not believe C7R is super charged like it’s Street brother.
The magic of the Ford GT is not it’s engine. It is chassis and aerodynamics. I don’t know how much of an advantage in aerodynamics or chassis it has over the RSR but I would imagine it’s not that much If at all as I do not believe PAG would field a GTE purpose built car with an aerodynamic and chassis disadvantage. Unfortunately I do not believe the rules allow for active rear wheel steering which would give the RSR an advantage. Maybe it should be given this vantage in light of the power deficit it has.
hoping we all are just over reacting to a very poor first outing which I’m hoping is just attributable to bad luck .
As far as the streetcar track times I would imagine that the Ford GT track times are probably similar to the McLaren 675 LT. This would make it a click or two faster on longer tracks with lesser advantage and closer times on tighter tracks as the RS has the its rear wheel steering advantage unlike the RSR. I would also think the GT2 RS will be significantly faster than either .
Hoping we just had crappy luck for the first outing and that PAG will get its act together. It better if it is going to compete against chip Ganassi and the FGT. The RSR did finish in second last year at Daytona behind Ferrari.
01-29-2018 | 12:53 AM
#57
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That is a good question. Qualifying times for the first three positions were proximately 1/10 of a second apart with Porsche sitting third on pole. The #911 RSR ran very strong up until about 10:30 PM and was in the hunt as I recall for one of the first three positions. Why the # 912 RSR couldn’t duplicate the same performance was a mystery to me.
Can no longer say at the Ford GT has the advantage of being a race car that was homlogated for the street in light of the fact that the RSR is a also race car but hasn’t ben homlogated for the street nor have they even pretended to. The C7R always runs strong. If there weren’t so many damn Corvettes I would be more interested in buying one. I do not believe C7R is super charged like it’s Street brother.
The magic of the Ford GT is not it’s engine. It is chassis and aerodynamics. I don’t know how much of an advantage in aerodynamics or chassis it has over the RSR but I would imagine it’s not that much If at all as I do not believe PAG would field a GTE purpose built car with an aerodynamic and chassis disadvantage. Unfortunately I do not believe the rules allow for active rear wheel steering which would give the RSR an advantage. Maybe it should be given this vantage in light of the power deficit it has.
hoping we all are just over reacting to a very poor first outing which I’m hoping is just attributable to bad luck .
As far as the streetcar track times I would imagine that the Ford GT track times are probably similar to the McLaren 675 LT. This would make it a click or two faster on longer tracks with lesser advantage and closer times on tighter tracks as the RS has the its rear wheel steering advantage unlike the RSR. I would also think the GT2 RS will be significantly faster than either .
Hoping we just had crappy luck for the first outing and that PAG will get its act together. It better if it is going to compete against chip Ganassi and the FGT. The RSR did finish in second last year at Daytona behind Ferrari.
01-29-2018 | 01:01 AM
#58
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01-29-2018 | 01:35 AM
#59
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Originally Posted by mooty
man of few words and correct.
when I win it’s cool
when I lose, others cheated
when I win it’s cool
when I lose, others cheated
