MISFIRE CODE GT3s
12-01-2015, 06:18 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
MISFIRE CODE GT3s
I think it would serve the RL community if we start to keep track of the latest in a growing number of 2nd/3rd engine replacements for our beloved GT3. It appears that these cars have all had misfire codes, typically noticed when at the track, at high RPM (assuming they are in auto and banging off the 9k glory). Location (USA vs ROW) does not seem to be in play. Let's see if the RL community can figure this one out, as I fear that Porsche's communication skills, and/or acknowledgment that there is a design issue with oiling at/near 9k will be lacking in veracity.
Maybe list year of the car, delivery month, amount of track time, how you tracked it (auto vs manual), break-in procedure followed, how the car reacted when codes were alerted, did resetting codes work, on the recall for plugs/coils/ECU reprogram, type of oil used, PCNA's approach to the fix, etc.
One thing we all need to be concerned with: The 2014 replacement engine cars got the extra year of warranty, paid compensation, and an engine replacement certificate, along with a buy back offer. Has anyone had the same offered to them for this new engine debacle?
Maybe list year of the car, delivery month, amount of track time, how you tracked it (auto vs manual), break-in procedure followed, how the car reacted when codes were alerted, did resetting codes work, on the recall for plugs/coils/ECU reprogram, type of oil used, PCNA's approach to the fix, etc.
One thing we all need to be concerned with: The 2014 replacement engine cars got the extra year of warranty, paid compensation, and an engine replacement certificate, along with a buy back offer. Has anyone had the same offered to them for this new engine debacle?
12-01-2015, 06:28 PM
#2
Race Director
I think that's a great idea. What about cars that have thrown no codes? Do you think it would be useful to also have background info on them as a basis for comparison?
12-01-2015, 06:49 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
It can't hurt. I will start. 2015 GT3, delivered Nov 2014. 2,000 miles break in followed. Never had a code thrown. 4500 miles. No longer smokes at start up. Half a dozen track days. Burns 150ml per track day. Manual shifting, hitting rev limiter 1-2 times per track day, otherwise, short shifting at 8600-8700 rpm. Never had any codes alerted. Never had an accidental oil overfill. Only once was there a sluggish start up (rough idle, then engine just quit). Mobil 1, 0w-40. Not presently on recall campaign.
1st Engine.
1st Engine.
Last edited by MileHigh911; 12-01-2015 at 07:49 PM.
12-01-2015, 06:50 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
If you use search youll find the thread from 9 months back which has captured feedback from 4-5 people already experienced this. Suggest to build on that and close this rather than starting yet anther thread on the subject?
Im almost 9000 miles. 1.5+K miles track work sportAuto plus some quick roadwork. 2013 car with 2014 replacement engine. ROW. NO ISSUES on either engine 1 or 2. Run in procedure both engines 2 tanks gas vary revs below 7000 run hot etc. Car has not been babied on track or on road.
Im almost 9000 miles. 1.5+K miles track work sportAuto plus some quick roadwork. 2013 car with 2014 replacement engine. ROW. NO ISSUES on either engine 1 or 2. Run in procedure both engines 2 tanks gas vary revs below 7000 run hot etc. Car has not been babied on track or on road.
12-01-2015, 06:56 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
If you use search youll find the thread from 9 months back which has captured feedback from 4-5 people already experienced this. Suggest to build on that and close this rather than starting yet anther thread on the subject?
Im almost 9000 miles. 1.5+K miles track work sportAuto plus some quick roadwork. 2013 car with 2014 replacement engine. ROW. NO ISSUES on either engine 1 or 2. Run in procedure both engines 2 tanks gas vary revs below 7000 run hot etc. Car has not been babied on track or on road.
Im almost 9000 miles. 1.5+K miles track work sportAuto plus some quick roadwork. 2013 car with 2014 replacement engine. ROW. NO ISSUES on either engine 1 or 2. Run in procedure both engines 2 tanks gas vary revs below 7000 run hot etc. Car has not been babied on track or on road.
12-01-2015, 07:08 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
I think it would serve the RL community if we start to keep track of the latest in a growing number of 2nd/3rd engine replacements for our beloved GT3. It appears that these cars have all had misfire codes, typically noticed when at the track, at high RPM (assuming they are in auto and banging off the 9k glory). Location (USA vs ROW) does not seem to be in play. Let's see if the RL community can figure this one out, as I fear that Porsche's communication skills, and/or acknowledgment that there is a design issue with oiling at/near 9k will be lacking in veracity.
Maybe list year of the car, delivery month, amount of track time, how you tracked it (auto vs manual), break-in procedure followed, how the car reacted when codes were alerted, did resetting codes work, on the recall for plugs/coils/ECU reprogram, type of oil used, PCNA's approach to the fix, etc.
One thing we all need to be concerned with: The 2014 replacement engine cars got the extra year of warranty, paid compensation, and an engine replacement certificate, along with a buy back offer. Has anyone had the same offered to them for this new engine debacle?
Maybe list year of the car, delivery month, amount of track time, how you tracked it (auto vs manual), break-in procedure followed, how the car reacted when codes were alerted, did resetting codes work, on the recall for plugs/coils/ECU reprogram, type of oil used, PCNA's approach to the fix, etc.
One thing we all need to be concerned with: The 2014 replacement engine cars got the extra year of warranty, paid compensation, and an engine replacement certificate, along with a buy back offer. Has anyone had the same offered to them for this new engine debacle?
Here are the other threads....
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...d-again-5.html - 15 engine failures reported in this thread, doesn't include any of the ones I know about first hand.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...-failures.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...l#post12391028
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...rol-fault.html
Last edited by Texas RS; 12-02-2015 at 06:08 PM.
12-01-2015, 07:16 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I do remember your thread. Let's get this thing revitalized....and get more specific information about this issue. I think when some hear "I heard of a guy who had this happen...." it doesn't sound credible, and most of us are bias that it won't be happening to them. That's why I'd like to get more info, from RL people who had it happen to them. And find out how PCNA handled their problem. Thx
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12-01-2015, 07:28 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
I do remember your thread. Let's get this thing revitalized....and get more specific information about this issue. I think when some hear "I heard of a guy who had this happen...." it doesn't sound credible, and most of us are bias that it won't be happening to them. That's why I'd like to get more info, from RL people who had it happen to them. And find out how PCNA handled their problem. Thx
I was trying to do what you are doing and that is get people who have had a problem to provide details, but if PMNA is putting them under a gag agreement it is unlikely that we will get the details. For all the failures I know of, PMNA has given new engines free of charge or purchased the customer's car back and allocated a replacement for purchase.
12-01-2015, 07:36 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Five track days, 5000km, no redlines but quite a lot of fast driving in Germany (250Km/h plus).
Car is 2016 RS and it is in the recall for the coils/plugs/remap. No misfire codes.
Recall will be done Monday and I will get the plugs back.
Oil was changed at 4700km and last couple of hundred were fairly leisurely.
I will report back on results next week.
Car is 2016 RS and it is in the recall for the coils/plugs/remap. No misfire codes.
Recall will be done Monday and I will get the plugs back.
Oil was changed at 4700km and last couple of hundred were fairly leisurely.
I will report back on results next week.
12-01-2015, 07:42 PM
#10
Nordschleife Master
Does anyone have any reliable feedback as to why does Porsche need to replace a whole engine because of misfires?
I have read different opinions and some are pointing to an oiling issue at high RPM. What does that mean exactly? They have found some scored cams,but my theory on that was that it's happening on cold starts. I thought then that the scoring that has happened on cold starts manifest at higher RPMs,due to the increased stresses put on the cams by the Variocam system,which demands high lift and high duration. I just can't comprehend cam scoring at high RPM due to lack of oiling. Please do some research on this : the oil volume inside the cylinder head at high RPM must be tremendous on an engine with 5 oil pumps,out of which one is on demand computer controlled and a dry sump that is providing oil volume to compensate high lateral Gs. There is no way a good engineering manufacturer could've messed that up!
Another issue I see with cam scoring due to lack of oiling at high RPMs is that it's so much cylinder dependent. In other words,I have read in most cases of single cylinder misfires and not several.
I would think there's s better chance of scoring inside the cylinder bores,judging by the shape of those plugs seen on Dr Juperman's car. This area is where I suspect Porsche is having problems with the manufacturer of these plugs. I suspect they are not built strong enough to withstand the heat generated by a high revving direct injection engine. The injectors are subjected to the same " treatment ",since they are now squirting directly into the combustion chamber. Coils are also subjected to higher stress,but they are not as vital in terms of potentially causing physical damage to the engine.
I have read different opinions and some are pointing to an oiling issue at high RPM. What does that mean exactly? They have found some scored cams,but my theory on that was that it's happening on cold starts. I thought then that the scoring that has happened on cold starts manifest at higher RPMs,due to the increased stresses put on the cams by the Variocam system,which demands high lift and high duration. I just can't comprehend cam scoring at high RPM due to lack of oiling. Please do some research on this : the oil volume inside the cylinder head at high RPM must be tremendous on an engine with 5 oil pumps,out of which one is on demand computer controlled and a dry sump that is providing oil volume to compensate high lateral Gs. There is no way a good engineering manufacturer could've messed that up!
Another issue I see with cam scoring due to lack of oiling at high RPMs is that it's so much cylinder dependent. In other words,I have read in most cases of single cylinder misfires and not several.
I would think there's s better chance of scoring inside the cylinder bores,judging by the shape of those plugs seen on Dr Juperman's car. This area is where I suspect Porsche is having problems with the manufacturer of these plugs. I suspect they are not built strong enough to withstand the heat generated by a high revving direct injection engine. The injectors are subjected to the same " treatment ",since they are now squirting directly into the combustion chamber. Coils are also subjected to higher stress,but they are not as vital in terms of potentially causing physical damage to the engine.
12-01-2015, 08:30 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
I belive the scoring is in part due the failure of the DLC used on some of the valve train. Early on Porsche identified a limited number of cars with a potential problem. They later issued a TSB to evaluate the cams. Could be a stacking error where a marginal DLC process and slightly lower oil pressure resulted in failures. The cost of replacing an engine or heads obviously would blow away the cost of a new program addressing oil pressure as a possible solution for the future.
BTW, Porsche has required signing a document indicating non disclosure on other items in the past.
BTW, Porsche has required signing a document indicating non disclosure on other items in the past.
12-01-2015, 08:35 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
I think it is great to collect as much info as possible but people within the tech dept in ATL do not believe that customers break in procedure has anything to do with cause of misfires. I am worried that the cause (or causes) of issue will not be permanently corrected by Porsche...it seems this is not a big deal in there eyes because of limited number of cases. I believe they will address this on a case by case basis and up until warranty is over then move on like they have attempted to in the past on other issues. I hope that is not the case but early signs and comments I have heard lead me to believe that you won't hear much going forward from Porsche as engines are quietly being replaced and they move on.
12-01-2015, 08:36 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Does anyone have any reliable feedback as to why does Porsche need to replace a whole engine because of misfires?
I have read different opinions and some are pointing to an oiling issue at high RPM. What does that mean exactly? They have found some scored cams,but my theory on that was that it's happening on cold starts. I thought then that the scoring that has happened on cold starts manifest at higher RPMs,due to the increased stresses put on the cams by the Variocam system,which demands high lift and high duration. I just can't comprehend cam scoring at high RPM due to lack of oiling. Please do some research on this : the oil volume inside the cylinder head at high RPM must be tremendous on an engine with 5 oil pumps,out of which one is on demand computer controlled and a dry sump that is providing oil volume to compensate high lateral Gs. There is no way a good engineering manufacturer could've messed that up!
Another issue I see with cam scoring due to lack of oiling at high RPMs is that it's so much cylinder dependent. In other words,I have read in most cases of single cylinder misfires and not several.
I would think there's s better chance of scoring inside the cylinder bores,judging by the shape of those plugs seen on Dr Juperman's car. This area is where I suspect Porsche is having problems with the manufacturer of these plugs. I suspect they are not built strong enough to withstand the heat generated by a high revving direct injection engine. The injectors are subjected to the same " treatment ",since they are now squirting directly into the combustion chamber. Coils are also subjected to higher stress,but they are not as vital in terms of potentially causing physical damage to the engine.
I have read different opinions and some are pointing to an oiling issue at high RPM. What does that mean exactly? They have found some scored cams,but my theory on that was that it's happening on cold starts. I thought then that the scoring that has happened on cold starts manifest at higher RPMs,due to the increased stresses put on the cams by the Variocam system,which demands high lift and high duration. I just can't comprehend cam scoring at high RPM due to lack of oiling. Please do some research on this : the oil volume inside the cylinder head at high RPM must be tremendous on an engine with 5 oil pumps,out of which one is on demand computer controlled and a dry sump that is providing oil volume to compensate high lateral Gs. There is no way a good engineering manufacturer could've messed that up!
Another issue I see with cam scoring due to lack of oiling at high RPMs is that it's so much cylinder dependent. In other words,I have read in most cases of single cylinder misfires and not several.
I would think there's s better chance of scoring inside the cylinder bores,judging by the shape of those plugs seen on Dr Juperman's car. This area is where I suspect Porsche is having problems with the manufacturer of these plugs. I suspect they are not built strong enough to withstand the heat generated by a high revving direct injection engine. The injectors are subjected to the same " treatment ",since they are now squirting directly into the combustion chamber. Coils are also subjected to higher stress,but they are not as vital in terms of potentially causing physical damage to the engine.
12-01-2015, 08:46 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
The most recent failure was a cam issue the lobes were significantly worn and it resulted in mis-fire code. The one just prior to that, the engine just died on the track, with a report plume of coolant smoke (based odor and color). It was termed a catastrophic failure with coolant and metal contamination in the oil.
It's interesting,because somehow cam lobes wear is normal,but within the specifications and mileage on that engine. There's no way cam lobe wear that causes misfires is normal!
12-01-2015, 08:46 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Here is my profile. I'm not under non-disclosure yet! 10k miles, 4k track miles (~ 28 track days). The car has been driven hard on the track - nearly all advanced group sessions. Car is MY2015 delivery in Dec 2014. Auto-Shift during track days so plenty of 9k revs. I had an issue with the transmission skipping gears earlier in the year which never reoccured after a restart, but no engine issues until my incident on Sunday. As I noted in my limp mode post, my issue was with cylinders 1 and 4. The other person who I talked to at the track who had a similar issue only had the problem in one cylinder. His engine was replaced after a several week diagnostic in which dealer replaced coil pack and fuel injectors with no resolution, followed by discovery of damaged rockers. I did the full 2k break in and have changed oil more frequently than required in the track maintenance manual. The dealer resolution to my issue is pending.