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** The "market adjustment" issue **

 
Old 09-09-2015, 06:15 PM
  #46  
Targa Tim
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Originally Posted by Mr. Adair View Post
^ This..

I don't like that the cars continue to land in the hands of the same people. Repeat customers, grandfathered in 918 buyers etc. that **** money. There are more than enough buyers for these cars that they don't need to go into the hands of preferred customers each time. ( and I get that it is their reward so to speak for multiple purchases) It's is no way to bring new buyers into the brand for future purchases which I think they will eventually need.
new buyers will start with Macan, Cayenne, etc.

seriously, return and loyal customers should be rewarded. This applies to any other businesses.

as for GT cars being hard to get, try ordering a brand new Hermes Birkins bag. I guarantee that a new customer cannot buy one no matter what.
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:02 PM
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Would this discussion be going on if the MSRP was $200K on a GT3 and dealers were "discounting" them?

Based on the current market, it appears that the MSRP is too low on GT cars.
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:07 PM
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Default ** The "market adjustment" issue **

Originally Posted by gurneyeagle
Would this discussion be going on if the MSRP was $200K on a GT3 and dealers were "discounting" them?

Based on the current market, it appears that the MSRP is too low on GT cars.
That's the thing. It's not a 200K car. It's priced where it needs to be at. Why would some suggest raising prices on them? The car isn't worth 200K.

Supply is too low for the demand. Simple economics. Why not make 10 GT3's and charge $1,000,000 each for them?

We saw how well the 918's sold when they were overpriced. They needed to sweeten the deal with 10yrs worth of allocation perks to move them.

A pretty big gap between your top model being in the low 200K range then jumping up to a million. Ferrari easily does it. Different buyers and more cash in that group.

Oh, brings up a good point. They're not really "perks" if the cars are readily available are they?? So back to square one. It's by design. Buyers want exclusivity and Porsche wants the leverage and frenzy.
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:07 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Targa Tim View Post
new buyers will start with Macan, Cayenne, etc.

seriously, return and loyal customers should be rewarded. This applies to any other businesses.

as for GT cars being hard to get, try ordering a brand new Hermes Birkins bag. I guarantee that a new customer cannot buy one no matter what.
I think you misunderstood me. New GT3 buyers not Porsche entry level buyers. I'm pretty sure in most cases they are not the same customer. Also, in 35 years of retail with many brands and segments you are generally saddled with flat growth when you don't bring new buyers or products to your brand. So I disagree there as well. As for repeat buyers getting cars ahead of waiting list buyers that were ahead of them? You might guess that I was a cash in hand GT3 buyer that was told cars were available several times only to have cars and deals rescinded on me by dealers...

As for a Hermes bag you don't want to know what I think of those..
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by STG991 View Post

Oh, brings up a good point. They're not really "perks" if the cars are readily available are they?? So back to square one. It's by design. Buyers want exclusivity and Porsche wants the leverage and frenzy.
Totally agree with that.
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Targa Tim View Post
brand new Hermes Birkins bag.
What the hell? I had to google it. A $20K hand bag. Good lord I am glad my wife doesn't come on here.
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by STG991 View Post
That's the thing. It's not a 200K car. It's priced where it needs to be at. Why would some suggest raising prices on them? The car isn't worth 200K.

Supply is too low for the demand. Simple economics. Why not make 10 GT3's and charge $1,000,000 each for them?

We saw how well the 918's sold when they were overpriced. They needed to sweeten the deal with 10yrs worth of allocation perks to move them.

A pretty big gap between your top model being in the low 200K range then jumping up to a million. Ferrari easily does it. Different buyers and more cash in that group.

Oh, brings up a good point. They're not really "perks" if the cars are readily available are they?? So back to square one. It's by design. Buyers want exclusivity and Porsche wants the leverage and frenzy.
I think you are missing my point. I agree it's not worth $200K, but it is obviously "worth" more than the MSRP if cars, even used ones, are selling above the MSRP. Demand exceeds supply, thus the inflated prices.

It's the perfect example of supply versus demand where the market determines a price. It's really interesting to watch the cars in unique colors, especially PTS, sell for way more than the white, silver, and black ones.

I would argue that in the case of the 918, the cost drove the MSRP which was obviously more than the market deemed of value.

BTW - Thank you for your daily "Hot for sale pick of the week" thread! I know you put a lot of time into it, and it is very entertaining.

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Old 09-09-2015, 10:35 PM
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Default ** The "market adjustment" issue **

Originally Posted by gurneyeagle

BTW - Thank you for your daily "Hot for sale pick of the week" thread! I know you put a lot of time into it, and it is very entertaining.
It's a fun thing. Thanks.

These car business topics are also of interest to me.
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:47 PM
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Demand is clearly driven by (us) the buyer, and Porsche reads these boards just like BMW for market research. If (we) stopped paying over for the cars the market will soften, and since we can afford these cars we start talking with our wallets not brains by buying the cars.

Now the flip side I don't fault a person that wants to spend 20k to 100k to be the first to have the new toy. Some people are willing to pay 10k over which seems tolerable on this board, but what about the guy who makes 10X the person that paid 10k over. Hate to say it it's the same number, but one just has bigger pockets and wants the car vs. waiting.
If we all get cars great, and if not 458 here I come.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:04 PM
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Default ** The "market adjustment" issue **

Originally Posted by Maverick787
Demand is clearly driven by (us) the buyer, and Porsche reads these boards just like BMW for market research.
I think any PCNA executives dismiss these boards as Internet chatter and they think they know more.

As far as market research? Any fresh out of college marketing major covering these boards and reporting on them has their work cut out for them! I think they'd report some sort of chemical imbalances with Porsche owners on here. Who would have the patience and filter through all this stuff??


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Old 09-09-2015, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by STG991 View Post
I think any PCNA executives dismiss these boards as Internet chatter and they think they know more.

As far as market research? Any fresh out of college marketing major covering these boards and reporting on them has their work cut out for them! I think they'd report some sort of chemical imbalances with Porsche owners on here. Who would have the patience and filter through all this stuff??


Good point. True story BMW combed the M5 boards when the oil pumps failed on two cars back in 2012. (Destroying two engines)They issues a stop sale, and each owner was assigned a case worker. They were reading the boards on what the owners was saying, and they increased compensation. Companies are hiring people to mine Twitter Facebook, and other social media outlets because they do influence buying or not. The more we talk about over paying they will s,ow demand.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mrsullivan View Post
this +1

And a manufacturer can absolutely decide the terms of their franchise/brand licensing with dealers, including requirements on pricing. Their recourse, ultimately is to pull dealer licenses. They aren't going to do that because the dealers are their customers (really). However, my point is that PAG/PCNA isn't being smart right now because their GT cars are obviously under priced and their supply is obviously too low. They could charge more, produce more, and still have a few people waiting/wanting to maintain the halo effect. Then everyone wins. PAG/PCNA see more profit, dealers still get their cut, customers still have to pay higher prices. But most that want a car get one, and it just gets rid of all the ebay auction shaningans that are happening at the dealers right now.
I don't understand why you are promoting the concept of INCREASING the price? That's an interesting position for a consumer of the product. You'd rather NOT have the option of possibly purchasing the product (GT3 in this case) at a lower price point?
I'm okay with waiting to purchase at MSRP, vs get something now at a premium. However, if the MSRP was much more than what it is currently, I possibly wouldn't be a buyer, depending on the price point. So this way, Porsche gets my money (as well as many others in the market) and they let their dealers run their business as they choose. I am new to the brand...but have been following the GT market now for about 8 months. But.... It Seems to me that this 'issue' is really only a VERY small part of Porsches business.
Respectfully,
-PT3-
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Adair View Post
^ This..

I don't like that the cars continue to land in the hands of the same people. Repeat customers, grandfathered in 918 buyers etc. that **** money. There are more than enough buyers for these cars that they don't need to go into the hands of preferred customers each time. ( and I get that it is their reward so to speak for multiple purchases) It's is no way to bring new buyers into the brand for future purchases which I think they will eventually need.
Bingo. Any brand NEEDS to attract new buyers. Porsche seems like it will always be a high end niche brand, focused on car enthusiasts / quality-focused individuals. So I believe the 911 (in it's variety of forms... Many different versions to attract ALL interests up to and including the GT models.
Had I not been attracted into the brand by the GT3, I wouldn't be considering them for my next daily drive replacement. The regular 911 wouldn't have brought me in. I would have opted for a new Z06 or used 430 as I was looking for a track-focused toy.
I think they should make more of them, period. The reality is, MOST car buyers won't be interested in the GT3. So it will still remain a fairly exclusive model.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 0to60 View Post
Dealers have every right to charge over MSRP if buyers are willing to pay. I blame buyers that are impatient and must have it now, as they are the ones feeding the bubble. More money does not mean more brains. In a capitalist society aren't dealers allowed to capitalize on buyers willing to pay a premium. FWIW the entire over MSRP makes me sick but it's the buyers fault. The best tool in negotiating is your feet, learn to walk away.
Well said.... 100% spot on. The instant gratification society. Personally, I won't pay over MSRP. And I don't mind waiting a reasonable amount of time. I have the option of buying something in the meantime to hold me over.
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Old 09-10-2015, 01:15 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by PhilT3 View Post
I don't understand why you are promoting the concept of INCREASING the price? That's an interesting position for a consumer of the product. You'd rather NOT have the option of possibly purchasing the product (GT3 in this case) at a lower price point?
I'm okay with waiting to purchase at MSRP, vs get something now at a premium. However, if the MSRP was much more than what it is currently, I possibly wouldn't be a buyer, depending on the price point. So this way, Porsche gets my money (as well as many others in the market) and they let their dealers run their business as they choose. I am new to the brand...but have been following the GT market now for about 8 months. But.... It Seems to me that this 'issue' is really only a VERY small part of Porsches business.
Respectfully,
-PT3-
Obviously I personally don't want to pay more. We are having a philosophical debate here to pass the time and because it's interesting. And my simple point is this. Based on how the market is behaving the cars are under priced AND under produced. Long waiting lists. Cars trading back at msrp with thousands of miles on them. 25, 50, 100k premiums just for a build allocation. PAG could increase price and supply by 10% easily. Right now all the excess market adjustment profit is sitting with dealers and flippers and Porsche is leaving $ on the table.
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