991 GT3 or GT4 decision
06-08-2015, 02:03 AM
#47
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Its an interesting review as its one of the first we have seen punting the GT3 against the GT4. Im sure there will be more from the likes of EVO etc in the future that will give a more balanced perspective from BOTH the road and the track and in English as well which would be useful!
Im anticipating the GT4 will be the more fun car on the road (Im talking fast back-road morning dawn raids with some other spirited driving mates here). Thats why Ive put an order in. Unlike most Im not intending to track the car preferring instead the GT3. On the track the GT3 is simply awesome. After years punting my little 993 around the track (which I really enjoyed) I didnt think I would say that but the GT3 power/revs/9000 rpm and the safety and speed of the PDK shifter is addictive. Its also a car i do zero prep on which makes my track days very relaxing (no wheel/tyre/suspension/pad changes - just get in it drive to the track even long distance overnight with the wife and then next morning fill it up dig out the six point hardness from behind the seat, empty the car of all the crap I have and turn on the AIM DL + Smartycam bolted to the rear half cage). Heck I mostly dont even turn off the aircon on the track though I dont use the heated bucket seats while out there obviously :-)!
Perhaps I will grow tired of this "convenience". Its been fun on occasion to get the old girl out on the track to compare. I come in thinking "this old car is brilliant, the feel, the sound the un masked mechanical grip LWFC etc she sure punches above her weight what a balst). Then I get in the GT3 for the nest session and hit 15-20% more Vmax up the front straight laying down the brakes for a fast turn in an faster exit to the 60 degree corner at the end of the straight and I think, "man this chassis is brilliantly composed, man that redline and the sound is unreal, man that thump in the back is cool, man this thing is fast and makes me so quick). All of a sudden I love the GT3 more again. So it really is a difficult one as the experiences are so different. i cant tell you which I enjoy more which is really perplexing! I guess I ordered the GT4 as a safety net to see if it was worth owning something in between my GT3 and my 993. I cant afford to keep all three forever so one will have to go! I will definitely give the GT4 a track outing just to see how it feels on the track...hopefully at Spa or Nurburgring.
You and I are on a similar page. You have a old skool track hot rod (far lighter, better power/weight, more developed and no doubt better driven than mine) so you know the score here. The GT4 will be more like your hot rod than the 911 GT3 would be. Its manual for a start. Forget the weight there is only 100lb between a GT3 and GT4 - the GT4 is not as light as I would like to have seen it. Power to weight I suspect there wont be much between your car and the GT4 either.
All of the bullet points you make I agree with 100%. The fact is the Cayman will never be a 911 and I know that sounds snobby and I tried to tell myself it didnt matter years ago when I bought a 968 6 speed but the fact remains the 911 IS the Porsche to me - the look, shape, dynamic feel, flat 6 engine, the history and the heritage.
You have a unique wonderful and very capable old skool 911 in the garage. For you the Cayman thing isnt such a big thing because you have the "real deal" in the garage and so do I. For the OP he doesnt so hes asking for one car only recommendation - and as much as I think the GT4 may be enough for him and surely represents the best value I couldnt deny him the wonder of owning a 911 and not just any 911 but a GT3! Its like when you were young and wanted a nice watch you could only afford a Tudor Submariner but a few months later you got a pay rise which could have afforded you a Rolex Submariner. the Tudor is great - its 50% cheaper than the Rolex and does the same thing, made by the same company just a lower budget sub brand. The thing is you are wearing a Tudor. You look at it and wish it was a Rolex. practically there is nothing in it and the Tudor is way better value...but its not a rolex!
For me the 991 GT3 was the first GT3 to tempt be since I experimented with the 996.1 GT3 at the time I had the 993 (and it seemed ugly, bland and clinical at the time with the only highlight its engine with 80 bhp more and a much higher rev line than the 993). Over the years the 993 developed into a quasi GT3 in many regards (chassis and brake development, RS bits, Cams, Motec type ECU, weight saving etc). Each successive GT3 model launch just seemed like a "little bit more" to me not a revolution.
Then came the 991 Gt3. This car compared to your hot rod or my old 993 in RS++ spec was a REVOLUTION. Its like owning the Nissan GTR of Porsche 911 in many regards. Its different enough to appeal and wake you up to the present of performance car tech and give you a glimpse to the future. It does everything so well with so little compromise compared to your or my oldtimer that you actually love it for just being so "everything". Few will get this perspective because it comes from a long time air cooled guy who never thought he would go water cooled in a big way.
The GT4 is much of that the new GT3 is Im sure, with the old school gearbox but Im not sure I would have bought the GT4 as the only car to sit next to my old skool girl even if money had have been the decider. For a few reasons. Firstly its not different enough (its heavy still as modern cars are, its revs but not much higher than my 993 and yes it has a bit more power but at the expense of electronic systems such as electro steering, more unsprung weight, less all out mechanical feel). And secondly (and Im a bit embarrassed about this) its not a 911. Let alone a 911 GT3/RS. I know its superficial and I feel bad saying it but when I look at the 991 GT3 all clean in teh garage next to the 993 I see two very beautiful pieces of functional art with their coke bottle shape, wide flowing hips and similar shaped rooflines etc. They are both so beautiful to me I couldnt tell you which is the better shape! But they are both 911!
This has become longer than I expected (no surprise to those that know me!) and probably a too specific to you and I, but I hope in here are some perspectives that may be useful to the OP and also others reading this thread.
Im anticipating the GT4 will be the more fun car on the road (Im talking fast back-road morning dawn raids with some other spirited driving mates here). Thats why Ive put an order in. Unlike most Im not intending to track the car preferring instead the GT3. On the track the GT3 is simply awesome. After years punting my little 993 around the track (which I really enjoyed) I didnt think I would say that but the GT3 power/revs/9000 rpm and the safety and speed of the PDK shifter is addictive. Its also a car i do zero prep on which makes my track days very relaxing (no wheel/tyre/suspension/pad changes - just get in it drive to the track even long distance overnight with the wife and then next morning fill it up dig out the six point hardness from behind the seat, empty the car of all the crap I have and turn on the AIM DL + Smartycam bolted to the rear half cage). Heck I mostly dont even turn off the aircon on the track though I dont use the heated bucket seats while out there obviously :-)!
Perhaps I will grow tired of this "convenience". Its been fun on occasion to get the old girl out on the track to compare. I come in thinking "this old car is brilliant, the feel, the sound the un masked mechanical grip LWFC etc she sure punches above her weight what a balst). Then I get in the GT3 for the nest session and hit 15-20% more Vmax up the front straight laying down the brakes for a fast turn in an faster exit to the 60 degree corner at the end of the straight and I think, "man this chassis is brilliantly composed, man that redline and the sound is unreal, man that thump in the back is cool, man this thing is fast and makes me so quick). All of a sudden I love the GT3 more again. So it really is a difficult one as the experiences are so different. i cant tell you which I enjoy more which is really perplexing! I guess I ordered the GT4 as a safety net to see if it was worth owning something in between my GT3 and my 993. I cant afford to keep all three forever so one will have to go! I will definitely give the GT4 a track outing just to see how it feels on the track...hopefully at Spa or Nurburgring.
You and I are on a similar page. You have a old skool track hot rod (far lighter, better power/weight, more developed and no doubt better driven than mine) so you know the score here. The GT4 will be more like your hot rod than the 911 GT3 would be. Its manual for a start. Forget the weight there is only 100lb between a GT3 and GT4 - the GT4 is not as light as I would like to have seen it. Power to weight I suspect there wont be much between your car and the GT4 either.
All of the bullet points you make I agree with 100%. The fact is the Cayman will never be a 911 and I know that sounds snobby and I tried to tell myself it didnt matter years ago when I bought a 968 6 speed but the fact remains the 911 IS the Porsche to me - the look, shape, dynamic feel, flat 6 engine, the history and the heritage.
You have a unique wonderful and very capable old skool 911 in the garage. For you the Cayman thing isnt such a big thing because you have the "real deal" in the garage and so do I. For the OP he doesnt so hes asking for one car only recommendation - and as much as I think the GT4 may be enough for him and surely represents the best value I couldnt deny him the wonder of owning a 911 and not just any 911 but a GT3! Its like when you were young and wanted a nice watch you could only afford a Tudor Submariner but a few months later you got a pay rise which could have afforded you a Rolex Submariner. the Tudor is great - its 50% cheaper than the Rolex and does the same thing, made by the same company just a lower budget sub brand. The thing is you are wearing a Tudor. You look at it and wish it was a Rolex. practically there is nothing in it and the Tudor is way better value...but its not a rolex!
For me the 991 GT3 was the first GT3 to tempt be since I experimented with the 996.1 GT3 at the time I had the 993 (and it seemed ugly, bland and clinical at the time with the only highlight its engine with 80 bhp more and a much higher rev line than the 993). Over the years the 993 developed into a quasi GT3 in many regards (chassis and brake development, RS bits, Cams, Motec type ECU, weight saving etc). Each successive GT3 model launch just seemed like a "little bit more" to me not a revolution.
Then came the 991 Gt3. This car compared to your hot rod or my old 993 in RS++ spec was a REVOLUTION. Its like owning the Nissan GTR of Porsche 911 in many regards. Its different enough to appeal and wake you up to the present of performance car tech and give you a glimpse to the future. It does everything so well with so little compromise compared to your or my oldtimer that you actually love it for just being so "everything". Few will get this perspective because it comes from a long time air cooled guy who never thought he would go water cooled in a big way.
The GT4 is much of that the new GT3 is Im sure, with the old school gearbox but Im not sure I would have bought the GT4 as the only car to sit next to my old skool girl even if money had have been the decider. For a few reasons. Firstly its not different enough (its heavy still as modern cars are, its revs but not much higher than my 993 and yes it has a bit more power but at the expense of electronic systems such as electro steering, more unsprung weight, less all out mechanical feel). And secondly (and Im a bit embarrassed about this) its not a 911. Let alone a 911 GT3/RS. I know its superficial and I feel bad saying it but when I look at the 991 GT3 all clean in teh garage next to the 993 I see two very beautiful pieces of functional art with their coke bottle shape, wide flowing hips and similar shaped rooflines etc. They are both so beautiful to me I couldnt tell you which is the better shape! But they are both 911!
This has become longer than I expected (no surprise to those that know me!) and probably a too specific to you and I, but I hope in here are some perspectives that may be useful to the OP and also others reading this thread.
06-08-2015, 02:55 AM
#48
A Little History on the 1992 Carrera Cup USA Edition 964s
It isn't. The one behind me in the pic is now back in Europe and although it is a real Cup, it is not the guest car Mika Hakkinen drove twice. The one asking $300k is. Frankly, these cars have gotten so valuable and parts are becoming harder to source, it is hard to track it, let alone race it anymore.
1992 964 Cup for sale at Rennlist Vehicle Marketplace for $300K
https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...heuer-car.html
*********
Is the $300K 1992 Cup above the same as Fran Cosentino's Mika Häkkinen winning Cup car in the article below?
********
For those not familiar with the 'strange' saga of the forty-five 1992 Carrera Cup USA Edition 964's, I recommend you read the article (dated 2004) linked below. This was a vehicle I considered buying at the time for approx. $79K new...but ended up getting cold feet & passed!
http://www.carreracupusa.org/article...llence2004.pdf
**********
Then read this good period piece from 'Autoweek' from 1992:
http://www.carreracupusa.org/article...208%201992.pdf
*********
And this other Excellence article dated 1993:
http://www.carreracupusa.org/articles/cup_car.pdf
********
For more information on these cars, I have found the Carrera Cup USA Registry to be a good source:
http://www.carreracupusa.org/main.htm
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
Last edited by Z356; 06-08-2015 at 03:39 AM. Reason: Add link to Cup car for sale at $300K from Vehicle Marketplace
06-08-2015, 03:55 AM
#49
Haven't driven the Cayman but contrary to what some have suggested, I don't feel that the GT3 is at all boring at rpms short of 9000. Because of the relatively aggressive gear ratios and quick throttle response, I find it to be very rewarding in pretty much all contexts, using the paddles. (This coming from a former Vette guy who was concerned he would be disappointed with the not overwhelming low end torque figure). On top of that the handling and steering are just incredibly controlled and precise----and yes, the car just looks the bomb! 
While I have enjoyed manuals a great deal over the years, I don't miss it on this car. GT3!!!
While I have enjoyed manuals a great deal over the years, I don't miss it on this car. GT3!!!
My jaw is to the floor when i read someone write "a GT3 is not fun below 9,000RPM" or "Id rather drive a 911 GTS cuz its more fun at sane speeds" ive found the GT3 fun at all speeds. Granted it feels so much better when pushed a the track, and the look is just drool!
Last edited by Zulu Alpha; 06-08-2015 at 03:56 AM. Reason: clarity
06-08-2015, 10:38 AM
#50
Sorry if im
My jaw is to the floor when i read someone write "a GT3 is not fun below 9,000RPM" or "Id rather drive a 911 GTS cuz its more fun at sane speeds" ive found the GT3 fun at all speeds. Granted it feels so much better when pushed a the track, and the look is just drool!
My jaw is to the floor when i read someone write "a GT3 is not fun below 9,000RPM" or "Id rather drive a 911 GTS cuz its more fun at sane speeds" ive found the GT3 fun at all speeds. Granted it feels so much better when pushed a the track, and the look is just drool!
06-08-2015, 11:00 AM
#51
This not fun involvement too fast for the road is really getting out of hand. Just get a Civic and be done with the headache
06-08-2015, 05:04 PM
#53
Sorry if im
My jaw is to the floor when i read someone write "a GT3 is not fun below 9,000RPM" or "Id rather drive a 911 GTS cuz its more fun at sane speeds" ive found the GT3 fun at all speeds. Granted it feels so much better when pushed a the track, and the look is just drool!
My jaw is to the floor when i read someone write "a GT3 is not fun below 9,000RPM" or "Id rather drive a 911 GTS cuz its more fun at sane speeds" ive found the GT3 fun at all speeds. Granted it feels so much better when pushed a the track, and the look is just drool!
Back on topic, I'd go GT3 all day long. GT4 has a C2, integrated wet sump, with a redline which arrives too soon, not a screaming, dry sump, race -yes now race- engine for starters. The list goes on....
06-08-2015, 05:56 PM
#55
Drifting
Don't make the mistake I "almost" made. Drive the 991 GT3 before making any decisions. I was considering a GT4 way back when and 997 GT3. Drove the 997 and loved it, almost bought it. Drove the 991 GT3 and was smitten. There is only one GT3. Kind of an odd comparison but if a 6sp manual 997 GT3 doesn't beat a 991 GT3 than a GT4 won't. Drive em!
06-10-2015, 11:45 AM
#56
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Rennlist Member
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There is another new data point for comparing the GT4 to other Porsches. French magaine, Motorsport, measured the GT4 at Magny-Cours track running faster than 997 RS 4.0L and 991 Turbo S, but 1.33 sec slower than 991 GT3. Pretty impressive, imo.
More scans on this thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...eferrerid=8132
GT4's lap was 1:20.28 and scored a perfect 20/20 subjectively. Here are the others:
More scans on this thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...eferrerid=8132
GT4's lap was 1:20.28 and scored a perfect 20/20 subjectively. Here are the others:
06-10-2015, 11:58 AM
#57
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There is another new data point for comparing the GT4 to other Porsches. French magaine, Motorsport, measured the GT4 at Magny-Cours track running faster than 997 RS 4.0L and 991 Turbo S, but 1.33 sec slower than 991 GT3. Pretty impressive, imo.
GT4's lap was 1:20.28 and scored a perfect 20/20 subjectively.
GT4's lap was 1:20.28 and scored a perfect 20/20 subjectively.
My wife turned down a GT4 allocation in order to keep her Cayman R. I get that, but when the next GT4 allocation comes up, I'm thinking that I won't let her make that mistake again.
06-11-2015, 02:17 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
Given this threads title here is the closing piece on the 991 GT3 by the same magazine 12 months ago. Also another 20/20. Appears we are spoilt for choice at this point in time. I'm pretty certain they will deduce the 991 GT3 RS is also a 20/20. Hopefully we will see their RS review next month...
06-11-2015, 02:31 AM
#59
Three Wheelin'
A well optioned GT4 will run around 100k and a decently optioned GT3 will run your 150k. That is 50 percent more. If money isn't a factor I would take a GT3 hands down. The engine note and looks set it apart. I have a GT4 on order but would gladly trade it for a 16' GT3 allocation with LWB's.
06-11-2015, 10:07 AM
#60
Three Wheelin'
991 GT3 or GT4 decision
Did you get a GT4 with LWB? That's like shooting a hole in one and bowling a perfect game the same day. Or getting an unexpected promotion. Or....