Notices
991 GT3 GT3RS and 911R
Sponsored by:

Has anyone driven in the 'no drive' period?

 
Old 03-05-2014, 10:44 PM
  #76  
wanna911
Super User
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

Originally Posted by Pat L. View Post
I agree that BoP and money can ultimately be very important in playing a role in determining championships. However, to sit behind your computer and say the engineers, crew and drivers hardly matter is nothing short of ignorant. And if you think the top level professional cars basically engineer/drive themselves then I'd encourage you to a) try one out, b) talk to an amateur that has or c) come talk to the teams in the paddock that aren't sitting on top of the time sheets. Scott Tucker had to basically devote his waking life to get up to speed so while I can't argue with the size of the checks he wrote, I will defend his hard work. Competition becomes tighter year after year and any driver that wins a championship in today's environment most certainly had to earn it.

To get back on topic: just because a car has paddle shifters doesn't put it in a category unworthy to be considered a true sports car. It doesn't make it any less difficult to wring that last little bit of performance out of it. It's a different way to free up the mental/physical tasks of the driver so he/she can focus on the numerous other tasks involved with driving a car at the limit. Will some people, myself included, always long for a chance to row through an h-pattern? Of course. Would I choose that over the current car in LA traffic or an endurance race? No effing way.
You mixed up my sentences. I said the drivers hardly matter and that you can't tell what between the team, car, rules that is making them win, but driver is far down the list as with the decrease in required talent, you can put almost any dude in a car and make them competitive in a short period of time. The talent level required to win has been drastically reduced, and so has the gap between the truly talented and ones that can manage the lesser difficulty. Tucker bought and built cars based on the rules to win in SCCA, it was not done with driving talent there so I have to assume the ALMS has better drivers in the PC class as well. Yet, here he is winning championships. That says enough for me.

You can't legitimately argue that it's no more difficult to wring out the max performance in a manual than a paddle shift. You then go on to contradict that by saying you free up tasks from the driver. Can't possibly be both.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 03-06-2014, 02:59 PM
  #77  
Pat L.
User
 
Pat L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 52
Default

Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
You mixed up my sentences. I said the drivers hardly matter and that you can't tell what between the team, car, rules that is making them win, but driver is far down the list as with the decrease in required talent, you can put almost any dude in a car and make them competitive in a short period of time. The talent level required to win has been drastically reduced, and so has the gap between the truly talented and ones that can manage the lesser difficulty. Tucker bought and built cars based on the rules to win in SCCA, it was not done with driving talent there so I have to assume the ALMS has better drivers in the PC class as well. Yet, here he is winning championships. That says enough for me.

You can't legitimately argue that it's no more difficult to wring out the max performance in a manual than a paddle shift. You then go on to contradict that by saying you free up tasks from the driver. Can't possibly be both.
Wanna911, I don't know you're name, but I'm assuming you don't have the resume to back up any of your comments. I will say that I've driven with and against gentleman racers and factory drivers... it takes an enormous amount of raw talent in conjunction with a lifetime devoted to perfecting one's craft to win in professional motorsport. I'm racking my brain to think of an exception to support your comments, but I can't. To throw darts at the hard work and dedication of others is pretty tasteless. Even in the case of Scott Tucker, a guy who preys on the helpless to fund his racing, he has still spilled blood, sweat and tears to be a championship winning driver.

To elaborate on my previous statement regarding paddle shifters: With a professional or even amateur/gentleman driver, shifting is second nature; nothing about running the gearbox up or down is difficult (despite the fact that manual gearbox drivers seem to wear it on their sleeve like a boyscout patch). When you put a professional guy in a car with paddle shifters, it just means his/her brain is freed up from the physio task of running the legs and arms to shift the car. That pro driver will then spend that extra few percent of brain power to challenge the car further to its limits. The amateur driver doesn't poses the raw car control skills to challenge the car further so even though he/she has paddle shifters, they still aren't taking advantage of that freed up disk space. We've seen a wider spread between professional drivers and amateurs with the new Porsche with paddles than what we had in the 997 with the sequential.
Pat L. is offline  
Old 03-06-2014, 03:53 PM
  #78  
wanna911
Super User
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

Originally Posted by Pat L. View Post
Wanna911, I don't know you're name, but I'm assuming you don't have the resume to back up any of your comments. I will say that I've driven with and against gentleman racers and factory drivers... it takes an enormous amount of raw talent in conjunction with a lifetime devoted to perfecting one's craft to win in professional motorsport. I'm racking my brain to think of an exception to support your comments, but I can't. To throw darts at the hard work and dedication of others is pretty tasteless. Even in the case of Scott Tucker, a guy who preys on the helpless to fund his racing, he has still spilled blood, sweat and tears to be a championship winning driver.

To elaborate on my previous statement regarding paddle shifters: With a professional or even amateur/gentleman driver, shifting is second nature; nothing about running the gearbox up or down is difficult (despite the fact that manual gearbox drivers seem to wear it on their sleeve like a boyscout patch). When you put a professional guy in a car with paddle shifters, it just means his/her brain is freed up from the physio task of running the legs and arms to shift the car. That pro driver will then spend that extra few percent of brain power to challenge the car further to its limits. The amateur driver doesn't poses the raw car control skills to challenge the car further so even though he/she has paddle shifters, they still aren't taking advantage of that freed up disk space. We've seen a wider spread between professional drivers and amateurs with the new Porsche with paddles than what we had in the 997 with the sequential.
I don't have a resume so to speak, so take whatever I say with however many grains of salt you wish, but I've been on track and competed with several guys with said "resumes". Part of my disdain for Tucker's habits have to do with his choice of business, the other half is just poor sportsmanship from exploiting rules in SCCA to win, and I am not the only one who shares said sentiment. There is plenty of info to give insight into ones moral compass which seems to need some adjustment. I have sat and talked with and been coached by several with professional racing experience so I'm not pulling stuff out of mid air. Neither do I think you have to race professionally to see trends in the sport. I know that some have bought their way into the profession, and far fewer have earned their way into the profession by winning in karting, formula, etc. etc. Also a direct quote from a pro driver with a "resume".

I had my suspicions about the paddles making life easier, but those were solidified with the words from the late Sean Edwards with regards to the gaps between paddles and "regular" sequentials. His findings, both of which in the same chassis (997 I think), were in contrast to yours. It's posted on this very forum.

Not to mention, there is plenty enough evidence from watching TV to make some sound conclusions. But like I said, it's my opinion based on the evidence I have gathered. I still do not believe for one second that a sequential in the same chassis is harder to extract the most potential. That defies pretty much all evidence there is to be had. I may be an amateur, but I've been around the block enough to have drawn a solid conclusion on that.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 03-06-2014, 04:34 PM
  #79  
orthojoe
Super User
 
orthojoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 7,578
Default

Jumper and Wanna:
You guys do know that you are arguing with Patrick Long, right? Pat L.?
orthojoe is offline  
Old 03-06-2014, 04:37 PM
  #80  
neanicu
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
neanicu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ny
Posts: 9,272
Default

Patrick Lindsey apparently...
neanicu is online now  
Old 03-06-2014, 04:42 PM
  #81  
orthojoe
Super User
 
orthojoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 7,578
Default

Originally Posted by neanicu View Post
Patrick Lindsey apparently...
Whoops! Still...
orthojoe is offline  
Old 03-06-2014, 05:24 PM
  #82  
wanna911
Super User
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

I'm aware of who it is.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 03-06-2014, 06:50 PM
  #83  
jumper5836
Super User
 
jumper5836's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: great white north
Posts: 8,134
Default

There are some points that Pat L makes that I don't disagree on. Driving in LA traffic with a clutch aint fun. Regardless of who he really is. Taking away shifting even sequential shifting makes it easier for all drivers. H pattern shifting is second nature but the weird part is in the past that these pro 's have lost a race or a position due to a miss-shift. What about those times when the syncros just go and they end up having to double clutch or rev match to shift the whole race. These things made racing more interesting to watch. So even if it's second nature it seems though it's not as easy as you think it is. Paddles take away any uncertainty of driver error. And as Endurance goes, people get tired and things that are easy and second nature become more difficult to do. I can't really say I could ever change my opinion on that.

Wanna brings up some valid points as well but I can't comment on those since I haven't formed my own opinion on it.
jumper5836 is offline  
Old 03-06-2014, 07:21 PM
  #84  
stronbl
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: SF Bay Area & Houston, TX
Posts: 1,017
Default

Sorry for the slight diversion or maybe apologies for this cup of gasoline in my hand, oops just spilled it, but there is an interesting and current thread in the Racing - DE Forum with some data to explain findings (hope the link below works). It has some common elements to the last few views in this thread depending which side of the PDK fence you are on ... and whether you are a pro or amateur.

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...vs-manual.html
stronbl is offline  
Old 03-06-2014, 07:43 PM
  #85  
jumper5836
Super User
 
jumper5836's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: great white north
Posts: 8,134
Default

^Thanks looks interesting.
jumper5836 is offline  
Old 03-06-2014, 09:40 PM
  #86  
wanna911
Super User
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

Originally Posted by jumper5836 View Post
There are some points that Pat L makes that I don't disagree on. Driving in LA traffic with a clutch aint fun. Regardless of who he really is. Taking away shifting even sequential shifting makes it easier for all drivers. H pattern shifting is second nature but the weird part is in the past that these pro 's have lost a race or a position due to a miss-shift. What about those times when the syncros just go and they end up having to double clutch or rev match to shift the whole race. These things made racing more interesting to watch. So even if it's second nature it seems though it's not as easy as you think it is. Paddles take away any uncertainty of driver error. And as Endurance goes, people get tired and things that are easy and second nature become more difficult to do. I can't really say I could ever change my opinion on that.

Wanna brings up some valid points as well but I can't comment on those since I haven't formed my own opinion on it.
Good point, and was one of my favorite parts of racing. And racing is not the same without it, from F1 on down. A guy getting pressured into a missed shift. And getting passed. Part of the reason I'm looking forward to watching Continental sports car challenge and World Challenge GTS this year. Still a drivers battle at the end of the day. Had a good time playing with some World Challenge Mustangs a couple of weekends ago.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 03-07-2014, 11:38 AM
  #87  
JasonAndreas
Technical Guru
Rennlist Member

 
JasonAndreas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: USVI
Posts: 7,717
Default

Originally Posted by jumper5836 View Post
What about those times when the syncros just go and they end up having to double clutch or rev match to shift the whole race.
I imagine 356 owners were having these same arguments when Porsche started using a synchromesh transmission in the mid-fifties? The bumper sticker/t-shirt "real racers double-clutch" has new meaning?
JasonAndreas is offline  
 


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Has anyone driven in the 'no drive' period?


Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: