EVO Magazine awards 991 GT3 its coveted Car of the Year Award (eCOTY)
I still have to wait my EVO to arrive.. 
11-06-2013, 03:09 PM
#47
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I think that track or closed course competition cars can continue to get faster; improving technology can allow the total package can remain balanced and fun with additional speed up the the limits of the driver's reflexes and endurance (see F1, and the fact that it's being consistently "slowed down" to not exceed these). My long hood is such a competition car on a much lesser scale, and as you say it's human to strive to exceed.
However road speed limits are not increasing. In the early 70s you could use all of a '73 RS on the road in the US in many places for more than 10 seconds before risking a ticket. On the autobahn you could use it all until the gas ran out. Since that time, however, cars have gotten exponentially faster while US speed limits have actually come down. I mention the Veyron (and P1, etc) because history has shown that today's supercar speeds are tomorrow's sports car speeds. And I simply can't imagine enjoying the performance of a Veyron regularly on the road. Three seconds and you're done on public roads- that's a party trick, not a driving experience. It seems the focus must soon shift away from numbers: we are proving that we can hit numbers that are simply take away from the experience of driving on the street, rather than adding to it.
A story we've heard before, perhaps, but this piece and this car made me ask the question again- how close to the line are we?
However road speed limits are not increasing. In the early 70s you could use all of a '73 RS on the road in the US in many places for more than 10 seconds before risking a ticket. On the autobahn you could use it all until the gas ran out. Since that time, however, cars have gotten exponentially faster while US speed limits have actually come down. I mention the Veyron (and P1, etc) because history has shown that today's supercar speeds are tomorrow's sports car speeds. And I simply can't imagine enjoying the performance of a Veyron regularly on the road. Three seconds and you're done on public roads- that's a party trick, not a driving experience. It seems the focus must soon shift away from numbers: we are proving that we can hit numbers that are simply take away from the experience of driving on the street, rather than adding to it.
A story we've heard before, perhaps, but this piece and this car made me ask the question again- how close to the line are we?
after I got out of the car i did not even look back at it (kinda ugly) and i did not have any positive feelings about the drive, except feeling lucky that i did not loose my license. connectedness? none. other than speed, totally forgettable drive.
funny sound in the turbo S, whooosshh whoosh, with intermittent (artificial i suppose) exhaust rumbling. totally unexciting upshifts (no preuninger ****-bang....::
).i was happy to be back in my F458 afterwards, and couldn't fathom why anyone would spend super-car type money to get an ultrafast no-emotion 911 transporter. but here is the funny thing: after driving the TTS i drove a C4S 991 and it felt....broken...compromised. hp-power and particularly torque do corrupt after all.
so i hope - and believe - that the GT3 and the GT3 RS will move away from this blindingly fast but forgettable driving experience and give us the connectedness we long for.
peter
11-06-2013, 04:20 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
11-06-2013, 04:35 PM
#49
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Thread Starter
I agree with Pete. This new GT3 clearly has broad appeal and is impressive in many specifics and as an overall package. But I would NOT buy it primarily to drive on the road, IMO many other cars are more realistic and better suited for that purpose. The car will hit US speed limits in about 3 seconds in 2nd gear, and then what? How often are you really going to be at 8K rpm? Are you really going to pull over 1 G in corners on the road, with a multitude of hazards around if you screw up?
And even as a non-racing track car, I'm not sure either. Yes, it's really fast and the speed seems relatively accessible, but most serious track guys are more interested in developing skill and having fun rather than absolute speed (plus more speed means more risk).
I want to love this car and be excited about buying one, but I'm continually ambivalent about it and frustrated by it.
And even as a non-racing track car, I'm not sure either. Yes, it's really fast and the speed seems relatively accessible, but most serious track guys are more interested in developing skill and having fun rather than absolute speed (plus more speed means more risk).
I want to love this car and be excited about buying one, but I'm continually ambivalent about it and frustrated by it.
I think many of you have totally missed the achievement of this car. its won the two largest Car of the Year Awards ahead of the Ferrari F12 which is 2.5x as expensive (in the UK). Mots scribes Ive read say the F12 is an absolute work of art and better than the F458 etc.
This is also the first and only GT3 to win eCoty since the 996 GT3 a dozen years ago.
Has the GT3 become all of a sudden "so fast we are worried where we will drive it"? Come on, the last GT3 and the one before that were already so fast you could loose your licence and frankly haven driven them they were disappointing at less than 8/10th when you had an RS spec 993 to get back into as a DD.
Its real simple as Frayed said. If you are financing this purchase within a inch of your life and cant afford to keep an old school car (air cooled even better) in the garage as company to satisfy your concerns of a MT etc then dont buy it.
If you cant afford it dont buy it.
If you dont like it dont buy it.
Actually the less of you that buy it the less they will make (good for residuals).
Seriously tho. If the stats dont do it & the reviews dont do it for you so far for the 991 GT3 then until you actually get to drive one for a few days (unlikely for a long long time I suspect) I really cant see much value we can add here right now, here, today...
11-06-2013, 04:42 PM
#50
^^+1
But watch out @Macca! I bet we'll soon see a post that reads something like, "Well, I need to see about the durability of the 991 GT3 on track first..."
But I'm with you--no point in (continually...) beating a dead horse. There are certain aspects to the car that we simply will not know until the variable of time has passed. In the meantime, we can only go by what we know--and that's that the 997 GT3 is a fantastic car if you want a stick and the the 991 GT3 is a fantastic car if you are open to new tech.
But watch out @Macca! I bet we'll soon see a post that reads something like, "Well, I need to see about the durability of the 991 GT3 on track first..."
But I'm with you--no point in (continually...) beating a dead horse. There are certain aspects to the car that we simply will not know until the variable of time has passed. In the meantime, we can only go by what we know--and that's that the 997 GT3 is a fantastic car if you want a stick and the the 991 GT3 is a fantastic car if you are open to new tech.
11-06-2013, 04:57 PM
#52
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Respectfully, that's not a useful example. I've always had fun driving my street Porsches, all of which have had capabilities much higher than is legal, on the street. The 991 GT3 may have very high limits, but they are only incrementally higher, and within a few percentage points of any number of other high performance cars. A 991 GT3 will be no more difficult to enjoy on the street than any of them.
The exception is cars that are inherently engaging at all or most speeds, and IMO the 997 and earlier 911s meet that requirement. But I've personally found the 991 base and S to be fairly boring at road speeds, and to largely lack the distinctive 911 character I like (don't freak out, I know many disagree!).
I'm hoping that the 991 GT3 restores much of the engagement that we all seek, but when I hear statements like "it would be a better road car if it had 80% of the lateral grip" and "I can't say I'm a good driver, only that it's a good car", that certainly fosters doubts. True, most of the journalists have said it's a blast to drive on the road, but look at how they're driving it - fast, pushing the tail out with power, drifting it - that's not even remotely realistic road driving in my neck of the woods.
11-06-2013, 05:39 PM
#53
Race Director
My point was that cars tend to be boring when driven far below their limits. So move the limit up and that means you need to go faster.
The exception is cars that are inherently engaging at all or most speeds, and IMO the 997 and earlier 911s meet that requirement. But I've personally found the 991 base and S to be fairly boring at road speeds, and to largely lack the distinctive 911 character I like (don't freak out, I know many disagree!).
I'm hoping that the 991 GT3 restores much of the engagement that we all seek, but when I hear statements like "it would be a better road car if it had 80% of the lateral grip" and "I can't say I'm a good driver, only that it's a good car", that certainly fosters doubts. True, most of the journalists have said it's a blast to drive on the road, but look at how they're driving it - fast, pushing the tail out with power, drifting it - that's not even remotely realistic road driving in my neck of the woods.
The exception is cars that are inherently engaging at all or most speeds, and IMO the 997 and earlier 911s meet that requirement. But I've personally found the 991 base and S to be fairly boring at road speeds, and to largely lack the distinctive 911 character I like (don't freak out, I know many disagree!).
I'm hoping that the 991 GT3 restores much of the engagement that we all seek, but when I hear statements like "it would be a better road car if it had 80% of the lateral grip" and "I can't say I'm a good driver, only that it's a good car", that certainly fosters doubts. True, most of the journalists have said it's a blast to drive on the road, but look at how they're driving it - fast, pushing the tail out with power, drifting it - that's not even remotely realistic road driving in my neck of the woods.
I suppose I just don't get the problem. True, we can't drive our cars at insane speed everywhere but we all have our favorite bits of road where we get to exercise them. By the criteria you've laid out (pushing the tail out with power, drifting) no GT Porsche (or Porsche of any stripe), Ferrari, Lambo, Corvette, M car, what-have-you, would be "fun" to drive on the street, and that's just not the case. My Carrera S with 385 HP and PDK was really fun to drive on the street. I fail to see any risk that a 475 HP 991 GT3 with PDK-S won't be.
The
11-06-2013, 05:59 PM
#54
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Mike, as always you bring well weighted arguments to the table. David Vivians full transcript below. What he says is quite powerful but shows you the car appeals differently to different people. You have to"know" the jourmalists a little to understand how your own POV would fit in. Jethros a guy in his mid 30's, a real driver, a Chris Harris type. Vivian is an old school Motor noter, handy wheelman but very balanced moderator.
Im not sure Manifold others have the benefit of the full article but you cannot quote it out of context. After-all the 991 GT3 won one of the hardest eCOTY award is 15 years quite convincingly. Obviously the journalism reports the struggles certain members of the team had with each and every car, sometimes before but not after they had actually driven them. Its all part of the art.
I think with these type of journalistic pieces you have to look for how the writers you most align yourself with vote on teh car. After reading 15 years of this magazine I have a very strong opinion on which of the writers I really value their opinion and which I don't. For example, Im not a big fan of Trott, but I am of Jethro, I quite like Henry Catchpole (excellent writing style, not as competent driver on tarmac as Meaden), Meaden I value his input greatly but hes a grumpy old man sometimes, Vivian is quintessential connoisseur motor noter lifer and has more experience than most combined etc etc.
I really get jaded by the lack of qualified comments on these boards. Not just that but poorly thought out arguments. Im afraid I get a bit frustrated by this and find I need time on other boards to cleanse myself, so sorry to any of you I snap at....
SPOILER ALERT (for those who have made it through 4 pages of a thread with an obvious title and feel cheated that you may be learning about the article you have not read!). AVERT YOUR EYES NOW!
Im not sure Manifold others have the benefit of the full article but you cannot quote it out of context. After-all the 991 GT3 won one of the hardest eCOTY award is 15 years quite convincingly. Obviously the journalism reports the struggles certain members of the team had with each and every car, sometimes before but not after they had actually driven them. Its all part of the art.
I think with these type of journalistic pieces you have to look for how the writers you most align yourself with vote on teh car. After reading 15 years of this magazine I have a very strong opinion on which of the writers I really value their opinion and which I don't. For example, Im not a big fan of Trott, but I am of Jethro, I quite like Henry Catchpole (excellent writing style, not as competent driver on tarmac as Meaden), Meaden I value his input greatly but hes a grumpy old man sometimes, Vivian is quintessential connoisseur motor noter lifer and has more experience than most combined etc etc.
I really get jaded by the lack of qualified comments on these boards. Not just that but poorly thought out arguments. Im afraid I get a bit frustrated by this and find I need time on other boards to cleanse myself, so sorry to any of you I snap at....
SPOILER ALERT (for those who have made it through 4 pages of a thread with an obvious title and feel cheated that you may be learning about the article you have not read!). AVERT YOUR EYES NOW!
11-06-2013, 06:13 PM
#55
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LOL, I may be closer to Meaden (wasn't he somewhat disappointed with the 991 when it first came out?). I did read the full article, BTW.
It's a great car, but here's my problem. I want a new GT3, full warranty covering track use, under ~$135K, 991 platform, nice midrange torque, 6-sp manual, 5-lug 19" wheels with option to use 18", 997 GT3 steering feel. This 991 GT3 isn't that car. Close enough to still buy it? I dunno.
It's a great car, but here's my problem. I want a new GT3, full warranty covering track use, under ~$135K, 991 platform, nice midrange torque, 6-sp manual, 5-lug 19" wheels with option to use 18", 997 GT3 steering feel. This 991 GT3 isn't that car. Close enough to still buy it? I dunno.
11-06-2013, 06:30 PM
#56
Race Director
LOL, I may be closer to Meaden (wasn't he somewhat disappointed with the 991 when it first came out?). I did read the full article, BTW.
It's a great car, but here's my problem. I want a new GT3, full warranty covering track use, under ~$135K, 991 platform, nice midrange torque, 6-sp manual, 5-lug 19" wheels with option to use 18", 997 GT3 steering feel. This 991 GT3 isn't that car. Close enough to still buy it? I dunno.
It's a great car, but here's my problem. I want a new GT3, full warranty covering track use, under ~$135K, 991 platform, nice midrange torque, 6-sp manual, 5-lug 19" wheels with option to use 18", 997 GT3 steering feel. This 991 GT3 isn't that car. Close enough to still buy it? I dunno.
11-06-2013, 06:42 PM
#58
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Those are very different issues from whether the car will be rewarding to drive or will be too much car for the street, but fair enough. You have some very specific (and legitimate) requirements which may or may not make the 991 GT3 your cup of tea. OTOH, I'm not sure what exactly that's out there right now would be.
11-06-2013, 06:44 PM
#59
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LOL, I may be closer to Meaden (wasn't he somewhat disappointed with the 991 when it first came out?). I did read the full article, BTW.
It's a great car, but here's my problem. I want a new GT3, full warranty covering track use, under ~$135K, 991 platform, nice midrange torque, 6-sp manual, 5-lug 19" wheels with option to use 18", 997 GT3 steering feel. This 991 GT3 isn't that car. Close enough to still buy it? I dunno.
It's a great car, but here's my problem. I want a new GT3, full warranty covering track use, under ~$135K, 991 platform, nice midrange torque, 6-sp manual, 5-lug 19" wheels with option to use 18", 997 GT3 steering feel. This 991 GT3 isn't that car. Close enough to still buy it? I dunno.
As for your ideal 991 GT3, well Ive been asking the missus if we can havea young live in house maid who can make our meals and add some spice to the bedroom for quite some time. Call it a legit mistress if you may. I reckon you have about as much chance of finding the 991 GT3 you describe (or infact any new car on teh market that meets those requirements)as I do in getting my wish come true....!!
11-06-2013, 06:52 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
I haven’t watched these yet but here are the video reviews…..Part 1 & 2…..
evo Car of the Year 2013: Part 1 | evo TV - YouTube
evo Car of the Year 2013: Part 2 | evo TV - YouTube
evo Car of the Year 2013: Part 1 | evo TV - YouTube
evo Car of the Year 2013: Part 2 | evo TV - YouTube