EVO Magazine awards 991 GT3 its coveted Car of the Year Award (eCOTY)
11-07-2013, 01:11 AM
#76
Nordschleife Master
Can't stand the guy,but that has nothing to do with the car... It sounds epic. Thank God you've told me to skip to the last 1:50 min and didn't have to listen to that guy! It does sound like a WRC car,I guess the placement of that camera did the trick. Loved the flames through exhaust too!
As a matter of fact,I don't see any reason for those waiting on this car not to be excited.
As a matter of fact,I don't see any reason for those waiting on this car not to be excited.
Last edited by neanicu; 11-07-2013 at 01:32 AM.
11-07-2013, 04:17 AM
#78
I've learned a bit since then. Trackdays and autocrosses have taught me the rewards of pushing a truly fast car to the limit, and the futility of trying to explore and enjoy those limits on most US roads. Living in Germany and seeing 165 mph daily on the back way to work showed me where cars like the modern Turbo and GT3 can actually be enjoyed on the street, and what they were built for. And building, owning and driving cars which make the new GT3 look slow taught me that there absolutely is such a thing as "enough" power for the street.
Like others here, I've taken to a garage with multiple cars for different roles: One truly quick car for competition/ closed courses, one daily driver that's both comfortable and enjoyable, one practical all weather tool, and one fun car to enjoy on the street on the weekend. The luxury of having many cars for each lets you focus each on a specific task exclusively. And my car built exclusively for having fun on the streets is relatively slow.
More than that, I think it's presumptive to assume the 991 GT3 won't be entertaining at 5 or 6/10, just like our current cars. My previous Porsches all had limits far beyond what could safely be used on public roads. If a car has 30% more potential than you can use in public or 80% more, it can still be frustrating either way.
To your point above, I'd suggest you try a 356 or early 911 with period-like rubber on a nice road for a day. You'll be able to use much more of the car than you might expect. After all today's speed limits were set when those cars were new.
It's clear to me that many of today's cars are already "too competent" for today's US public roads. Purely as a street car the GT3 couldn't be my choice- I like a car that's mobile, and all that grip seems to make that all the more difficult.
If you don't have the luxury (or desire) to choose a separate street car and track car then the GT3 has a strong attraction, certainly. But the street car and track car rolls have diverged quickly, and continue to do so. In '73 you could buy an RS that you could push on the street, while there was simultaneously little quicker or more suited to the track. You can't really say the same for any modern car. Anything that's at or near the front of the field at the track is by definition going to be too much to push on the street. The GT3 tries to split the difference, and it does an admirable job, as this test shows. Splitting the difference, however, by definition means both rolls are compromised. And are becoming more so.
I think what may need to happen soon is that the requirement for speed be dropped from the equation. A fast and fun car on the track is very doable (GT3 RS, BAC Mono, Cup, etc). Want a fun car on the street and track, that's also doable (take your pick). But covering both a fun car on the street that's also a fast car on the track seems harder and harder to achieve. The GT3 wasn't the quickest car in the test, but it was up there. We'll see if future winners of this award continue to be near the fastest, or if the desire for something with lower limits that some of the journalists are describing becomes more widespread. I also wonder if the test was held on less deserted, less spectacular roads, what the results would have been.
To me it already seems that if the mission was to focus purely on driver experience rather than driver experience plus speed, a more enjoyable street car could have resulted.
Last edited by Petevb; 11-07-2013 at 10:58 AM.
11-07-2013, 04:49 AM
#79
Instructor
The end bit of the vid would have been improved if he stayed off the limiter.
No good comes of driving sideways on the public road - I'm not sure why all the mags do it. Don't get me wrong - I like to carve up a road as much as the next guy but it doesn't involve trashing the rear rubber and taking up both sides of the roads on every corner. That just slows you down.
No good comes of driving sideways on the public road - I'm not sure why all the mags do it. Don't get me wrong - I like to carve up a road as much as the next guy but it doesn't involve trashing the rear rubber and taking up both sides of the roads on every corner. That just slows you down.
11-07-2013, 06:56 AM
#80
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bring back chris harris!!!!!!!
at least he is entertaining, honest, personable and doesn't do things by halves.
11-07-2013, 09:00 AM
#81
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Everyone is different, of course, but for me driving some fast cars on the street is a bit like driving an F1 car with the pit lane speed limiter constantly on. Would I turn down the opportunity to take that drive if it arose? No, but it would probably get old after 2 laps... Would I ultimately have more fun driving a vintage 911 to its limits on the same track, even if didn't lap any faster? Yep.
To your point above, I'd suggest you try a 356 or early 911 with period-like rubber on a nice road for a day. You'll be able to use much more of the car than you might expect. After all today's speed limits were set when those cars were new.
It's clear to me that many of today's cars are already "too competent" for today's US public roads. Purely as a street car the GT3 couldn't be my choice- I like a car that's mobile, all that grip seems to make that all the more difficult.
If you don't have the luxury (or desire) to choose a separate street car and track car then the GT3 has a strong attraction, certainly. But the street car and track car rolls have diverged quickly, and continue to do so. In '73 you could buy an RS that you could push on the street, while there was simultaneously little quicker or more suited to the track. You can't really say the same for any modern car. Anything that's at or near the front of the field at the track is by definition going to be too much to push on the street. The GT3 tries to split the difference, and it does an admirable job, as this test shows. Splitting the difference, however, by definition means both rolls are compromised. And are becoming more so.
I think what may need to happen soon is that the need for speed will be dropped from the equation. A fast and fun car on the track is very doable (GT3 RS). Want a fun car on the street and track, that's also doable (take your pick). But covering both a fun car on the street that's also a fast car on the track seems harder and harder to achieve. The GT3 wasn't the quickest car in the test, but it was up there. We'll see if future winners of this award continue to be near the fastest, or if the desire for something with lower limits that some of the journalists are describing becomes more widespread. I also wonder if the test was held on less deserted, less spectacular roads, what the results would have been.
To me it already seems that if the mission was to focus purely on driver experience rather than driver experience plus speed, a more enjoyable street car could have resulted.
To your point above, I'd suggest you try a 356 or early 911 with period-like rubber on a nice road for a day. You'll be able to use much more of the car than you might expect. After all today's speed limits were set when those cars were new.
It's clear to me that many of today's cars are already "too competent" for today's US public roads. Purely as a street car the GT3 couldn't be my choice- I like a car that's mobile, all that grip seems to make that all the more difficult.
If you don't have the luxury (or desire) to choose a separate street car and track car then the GT3 has a strong attraction, certainly. But the street car and track car rolls have diverged quickly, and continue to do so. In '73 you could buy an RS that you could push on the street, while there was simultaneously little quicker or more suited to the track. You can't really say the same for any modern car. Anything that's at or near the front of the field at the track is by definition going to be too much to push on the street. The GT3 tries to split the difference, and it does an admirable job, as this test shows. Splitting the difference, however, by definition means both rolls are compromised. And are becoming more so.
I think what may need to happen soon is that the need for speed will be dropped from the equation. A fast and fun car on the track is very doable (GT3 RS). Want a fun car on the street and track, that's also doable (take your pick). But covering both a fun car on the street that's also a fast car on the track seems harder and harder to achieve. The GT3 wasn't the quickest car in the test, but it was up there. We'll see if future winners of this award continue to be near the fastest, or if the desire for something with lower limits that some of the journalists are describing becomes more widespread. I also wonder if the test was held on less deserted, less spectacular roads, what the results would have been.
To me it already seems that if the mission was to focus purely on driver experience rather than driver experience plus speed, a more enjoyable street car could have resulted.
And I would add that most of today's ultra-performance cars are completely unsuited to track duty from a safety standpoint, lacking rollcages, fire surpression, 6-point harnesses, kill switches, etc.
11-07-2013, 10:48 AM
#82
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Before I went to the track, I used to drive cars on the road way too fast sometimes, because I wanted to have fun and that was the option available to me. Now that I've spent a lot of time on track and learned to properly drive cars near their limits, I look back at the way I used to drive on the road and shudder at how stupid, reckless, and pointless it was. A lot of the driving I see in these reviews reminds me of that foolishness, and these reviews seem very much oriented towards fueling driving fantasies.
11-07-2013, 12:36 PM
#83
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Before I went to the track, I used to drive cars on the road way too fast sometimes, because I wanted to have fun and that was the option available to me. Now that I've spent a lot of time on track and learned to properly drive cars near their limits, I look back at the way I used to drive on the road and shudder at how stupid, reckless, and pointless it was. A lot of the driving I see in these reviews reminds me of that foolishness, and these reviews seem very much oriented towards fueling driving fantasies.
11-07-2013, 12:41 PM
#84
Rennlist Member
Keep in mind, that when most legitimate magazines test cars like this, they get approval for road closure. It's not like they are passing a minivan full of babies around a corner.
11-07-2013, 01:21 PM
#85
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Sure, but it doesn't represent realistic road driving, and is misleading for many. Even all that major drifting on the track isn't the fast way around.
11-07-2013, 02:06 PM
#86
Rennlist Member
Obviously when shown on a track, it is the driver having fun, not looking for best lap time. It also provides the dramatic, passionate image that marketing wants for sales.
I don't think anyone buying this car thinks that this marketing means it is OK to go out and drift every corner on their way to work. That decision is solely up to them.
11-07-2013, 02:54 PM
#87
Race Director
That matches the attitude I had when I was roughly 20. At the time my daily driver was a ~400 hp 944 Turbo with cup swaybars, coilovers and R compound tires. That car would still be called quick today; the liberties one could take with it were impressive.
I've learned a bit since then. Trackdays and autocrosses have taught me the rewards of pushing a truly fast car to the limit, and the futility of trying to explore and enjoy those limits on most US roads. Living in Germany and seeing 165 mph daily on the back way to work showed me where cars like the modern Turbo and GT3 can actually be enjoyed on the street, and what they were built for. And building, owning and driving cars which make the new GT3 look slow taught me that there absolutely is such a thing as "enough" power for the street.
Like others here, I've taken to a garage with multiple cars for different roles: One truly quick car for competition/ closed courses, one daily driver that's both comfortable and enjoyable, one practical all weather tool, and one fun car to enjoy on the street on the weekend. The luxury of having many cars for each lets you focus each on a specific task exclusively. And my car built exclusively for having fun on the streets is relatively slow.
Everyone is different, of course, but for me driving some fast cars on the street is a bit like driving an F1 car with the pit lane speed limiter constantly on. Would I turn down the opportunity to take that drive if it arose? No, but it would probably get old after 2 laps... Would I ultimately have more fun driving a vintage 911 to its limits on the same track, even if I didn't lap any faster? Yep.
To your point above, I'd suggest you try a 356 or early 911 with period-like rubber on a nice road for a day. You'll be able to use much more of the car than you might expect. After all today's speed limits were set when those cars were new.
It's clear to me that many of today's cars are already "too competent" for today's US public roads. Purely as a street car the GT3 couldn't be my choice- I like a car that's mobile, and all that grip seems to make that all the more difficult.
If you don't have the luxury (or desire) to choose a separate street car and track car then the GT3 has a strong attraction, certainly. But the street car and track car rolls have diverged quickly, and continue to do so. In '73 you could buy an RS that you could push on the street, while there was simultaneously little quicker or more suited to the track. You can't really say the same for any modern car. Anything that's at or near the front of the field at the track is by definition going to be too much to push on the street. The GT3 tries to split the difference, and it does an admirable job, as this test shows. Splitting the difference, however, by definition means both rolls are compromised. And are becoming more so.
I think what may need to happen soon is that the requirement for speed be dropped from the equation. A fast and fun car on the track is very doable (GT3 RS, BAC Mono, Cup, etc). Want a fun car on the street and track, that's also doable (take your pick). But covering both a fun car on the street that's also a fast car on the track seems harder and harder to achieve. The GT3 wasn't the quickest car in the test, but it was up there. We'll see if future winners of this award continue to be near the fastest, or if the desire for something with lower limits that some of the journalists are describing becomes more widespread. I also wonder if the test was held on less deserted, less spectacular roads, what the results would have been.
To me it already seems that if the mission was to focus purely on driver experience rather than driver experience plus speed, a more enjoyable street car could have resulted.
I've learned a bit since then. Trackdays and autocrosses have taught me the rewards of pushing a truly fast car to the limit, and the futility of trying to explore and enjoy those limits on most US roads. Living in Germany and seeing 165 mph daily on the back way to work showed me where cars like the modern Turbo and GT3 can actually be enjoyed on the street, and what they were built for. And building, owning and driving cars which make the new GT3 look slow taught me that there absolutely is such a thing as "enough" power for the street.
Like others here, I've taken to a garage with multiple cars for different roles: One truly quick car for competition/ closed courses, one daily driver that's both comfortable and enjoyable, one practical all weather tool, and one fun car to enjoy on the street on the weekend. The luxury of having many cars for each lets you focus each on a specific task exclusively. And my car built exclusively for having fun on the streets is relatively slow.
Everyone is different, of course, but for me driving some fast cars on the street is a bit like driving an F1 car with the pit lane speed limiter constantly on. Would I turn down the opportunity to take that drive if it arose? No, but it would probably get old after 2 laps... Would I ultimately have more fun driving a vintage 911 to its limits on the same track, even if I didn't lap any faster? Yep.
To your point above, I'd suggest you try a 356 or early 911 with period-like rubber on a nice road for a day. You'll be able to use much more of the car than you might expect. After all today's speed limits were set when those cars were new.
It's clear to me that many of today's cars are already "too competent" for today's US public roads. Purely as a street car the GT3 couldn't be my choice- I like a car that's mobile, and all that grip seems to make that all the more difficult.
If you don't have the luxury (or desire) to choose a separate street car and track car then the GT3 has a strong attraction, certainly. But the street car and track car rolls have diverged quickly, and continue to do so. In '73 you could buy an RS that you could push on the street, while there was simultaneously little quicker or more suited to the track. You can't really say the same for any modern car. Anything that's at or near the front of the field at the track is by definition going to be too much to push on the street. The GT3 tries to split the difference, and it does an admirable job, as this test shows. Splitting the difference, however, by definition means both rolls are compromised. And are becoming more so.
I think what may need to happen soon is that the requirement for speed be dropped from the equation. A fast and fun car on the track is very doable (GT3 RS, BAC Mono, Cup, etc). Want a fun car on the street and track, that's also doable (take your pick). But covering both a fun car on the street that's also a fast car on the track seems harder and harder to achieve. The GT3 wasn't the quickest car in the test, but it was up there. We'll see if future winners of this award continue to be near the fastest, or if the desire for something with lower limits that some of the journalists are describing becomes more widespread. I also wonder if the test was held on less deserted, less spectacular roads, what the results would have been.
To me it already seems that if the mission was to focus purely on driver experience rather than driver experience plus speed, a more enjoyable street car could have resulted.
To your point about driving a 356 or early 911, my Porsche experience began with an '84 3.2 Carrera which I owned for 13 years, so it doesn't quite fit the time frame you mention. But prior to the 3.2 I owned a '73 Lotus Europa Special. That car had only 130HP and skinny 175/185 tires. It was indeed a blast to drive on the street and I autocrossed it extensively. Still, my last Porsche had 3 times the HP, weighed twice as much, and was equipped with PDK to boot, yet I enjoyed the hell out of that car too. Maybe others wouldn't have enjoyed it as much as the Lotus but, as you say, everyone is different.
If I had the garage space it would be nice to own half a dozen sports cars and cover all the bases, but for now I need to choose one. The capabilities of the 991 GT3 are far beyond those of my Lotus, yet I'm convinced I will enjoy driving it as much as any car I've owned. When I read comments about reviewers who tested it whooping for joy, or see the smiles in vids on the faces of literally everyone who drives the car, it's hard to believe otherwise.
11-07-2013, 05:13 PM
#88
Rennlist Member
Hi guys:
I replayed and replayed it from 9 minutes on - speakers on full song. Pure car **** and more. I am so glad I signed to buy one two days ago (delivery April 2014). If I had not signed I would not be able to sleep tonight ....
But it was clear for me that I needed to sign after the one hour test drive 2 weeks ago. And I repat myself - I am a"PDK" hater
but it is iresistably good.
Peter
I replayed and replayed it from 9 minutes on - speakers on full song. Pure car **** and more. I am so glad I signed to buy one two days ago (delivery April 2014). If I had not signed I would not be able to sleep tonight ....
But it was clear for me that I needed to sign after the one hour test drive 2 weeks ago. And I repat myself - I am a"PDK" hater
but it is iresistably good.Peter
11-07-2013, 05:21 PM
#89
Race Director
11-07-2013, 06:34 PM
#90
Rennlist Member
+1, especially if it's an open road. If it's a closed road with proper safety, fine. Even then, though, I am not sure I see it as terribly applicable in the review of road cars in the same way some folks I respect do, but I understand why they do it: for the fun of it, for those evocative images others here have noted, and as proof that the car being tested has been taken to and beyond its limits for the conditions.
Very cool to see the 991 GT3 win eCOTY. Almost immediately, I wondered if it would when I drove it last summer. As I said: For those open to PDK, the new GT3 is a 10 out of 10—and maybe even an 11 out of 10. Sounds like the crew at EVO found it to be the latter after more time with it on roads they know and like. That the GT3 defeated the F12 is deeply impressive to me, given CH's review of the latter.
pete
Very cool to see the 991 GT3 win eCOTY. Almost immediately, I wondered if it would when I drove it last summer. As I said: For those open to PDK, the new GT3 is a 10 out of 10—and maybe even an 11 out of 10. Sounds like the crew at EVO found it to be the latter after more time with it on roads they know and like. That the GT3 defeated the F12 is deeply impressive to me, given CH's review of the latter.
pete