Uncooked Truth: A Sad State of Manual Transmission Affairs
08-30-2013, 05:02 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
PDK is simply boring. After pulling paddles in their new 991 GT3's for couple of months the drivers will crave the manual, and the poseurs will crave the next shiny thing on the horizon. There will be plenty of sub-2k-mile 991 GT3's for sale by winter 2014 and they will be cheaper than 7.2 GT3's. Driver's cars like pre-991 GT3's and Elise/Exige's will continue to go up in price until new technology and engineering gets used by someone smart to produce lighter, more tactile, and more involving drivers' cars instead of mere conveyances for fastest transportation from A to B.
08-30-2013, 05:07 PM
#63
Three Wheelin'
Absolutely. But exactly how many SUVs and sedans do you think they'd sell if they were only and SUV and sedan company? VW and Audi make version of the same SUVs. Porsche makes an average of 22k per cor sold. VW? Less than 1k. Why do you think Porsche can command those premiums?
Porsche is a car company in the business of making money selling cars. Clearly a lot of their profit margin is in the cache of the name and history. However, in the history of Porsche, the only time they have nearly gone bankrupt was when they tried to keep selling old, out-dated technology in the early 90s. If the decision to make a modern, pdk-only GT3 were as stupid as some of you guys imply, they wouldn't be selling them hand over fist.
The last numbers I saw had the 991 sales of PDK at well over 80%. The MT is standing next to an open grave next to the dodo.
If you run a business or are involved in a business, you know you don't make money customizing every little piece for the most persnickety customers.
08-30-2013, 05:09 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
I wonder how many MT enthusiast have MT in their second and third cars. Traffic while in a sport car is the same if you are in a sedan or SUV. If fun and involvement is so important, I am assuming all the MT enthusiast have MT in their other cars.
08-30-2013, 05:11 PM
#65
Three Wheelin'
Exactly. And I'd prefer the option of the car it could be if equipped with a manual. Slower, but for me, on the street, more fun.
Outright performance numbers are good for the ego of the average driver, little else. My ego's fine, I'll go for the driving experience that's more fun (for me) every time.
Outright performance numbers are good for the ego of the average driver, little else. My ego's fine, I'll go for the driving experience that's more fun (for me) every time.
08-30-2013, 05:15 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
Tough for some to hear the $$$/resources on a halo car from a company that's been bragging about stunning profits for a very long time...
08-30-2013, 05:21 PM
#67
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Let me ask this :
Do you actually think that if a Manual option had been offered with all the technology difficulties and expenses it involves,Porsche would have been losing money in the long run?!
Very curious!
Do you actually think that if a Manual option had been offered with all the technology difficulties and expenses it involves,Porsche would have been losing money in the long run?!
Very curious!
08-30-2013, 05:29 PM
#68
Porsche is a car company in the business of making money selling cars. Clearly a lot of their profit margin is in the cache of the name and history. However, in the history of Porsche, the only time they have nearly gone bankrupt was when they tried to keep selling old, out-dated technology in the early 90s.
In the 80s Porsche decided the 928 was the way forward- these were "better" cars than the 911 that they were supposed to replace in every measurable way, and all engineering resources were diverted to these cars while the 911 was allowed to languish.
The only problem was that while the 928 was "better" it wasn't nearly as much fun as the 911. When the 928 was no longer the latest and greatest it didn't sell, and by the early 90s the 911 was going on two decade old technology. When Porsche finally admitted their mistakes they had to hurriedly re-engineer the 911 at serious cost, to the point of adapting the multi-link rear suspension of the 993 to pick up the same old trailing arm attachment points of the original 911 designed back in the 60s!
Had Porsche listened to their customers in the 80s and put resources into fun rather than comfort and speed they would not have nearly hit the wall in the 90s.
There will always be plenty in line for the latest and greatest, but that fickle crowd will move on to the next latest and greatest just as quickly as it came. Ignore the real enthusiast who's looking for a driving experience, as porsche did in the 80s, at your peril.
I do, in fact, and I know that Porsche's massive profit margins are driven largely by exactly that! Paint to sample, deviant stitching, choose your own seat belt color, etc.
08-30-2013, 05:32 PM
#69
I said I'll trade speed, not driving experience. A street 991 is a huge step in the wrong direction on that front by every measure, finicky 7 speed manual in a PDK housing included.
08-30-2013, 05:39 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
Second, Porsche has found the engineering resources to engineer no fewer than seven different engines in the Cayenne, for crying out loud, and nine in the Panamera. They are the most profitable auto manufacture in the world, period. They sell those cars and make that profit on the back of the reputation they have as a true sports car manufacture for enthusiests.
100% of the enthusiast buyers of the previous model were manual drivers, and many if not most are upset with the lack of a manual option... Porsche has chosen to alienate some of its most loyal and hardcore customers.
100% of the enthusiast buyers of the previous model were manual drivers, and many if not most are upset with the lack of a manual option... Porsche has chosen to alienate some of its most loyal and hardcore customers.
But sales numbers are not the end all, be all. If they were, VW or Toyota make the best drivers' cars in the world, and none better than the Golf and Corolla. I'm also pretty sure the new BMW 3 is selling great. Have you driven one? One of the great benchmark sports sedans is effectively dead to me. Was not fun on the Loop—at all. Good grip and balance, and you could go fast. But it had a soundless, joyless I4 (this compared to VAG's excellent 2.0T, for instance) and all the steering feel of Google. I couldn't wait to get home—and the car was MT, btw.
08-30-2013, 05:41 PM
#71
Race Director
This article is so far beyond hypocritical that we need a new term. How can you rationally juxtapose this direct quote "Well you know what, Franz, then take all that power and torque out of the car and let me enjoy all that I can" with the availability of a regular, brand new, nonGT3 991 with a manual trans?
Just buy the slower (you all admit you would trade lap times for a third pedal) manual, regular 991 and qwitcherbichin already.
Just buy the slower (you all admit you would trade lap times for a third pedal) manual, regular 991 and qwitcherbichin already.
Anyway.. My silly little off-the-wall prediction is that there wi be some gt3 america version, or maybe some regular 991-based lightened RS AMERICA version with a MT. It will instantly be worth $1,000,000 second hand, and we will talk ab it as nauseum how little sense it makes that this car costs so much and yet is slower than a lowly gt3. :-)
Last edited by CAlexio; 08-30-2013 at 05:58 PM.
08-30-2013, 05:56 PM
#72
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
The argument about being slower with a manual transmission on the track has me wondering : yes,you'll be faster with PDK-S,but the question is-how much faster? Will it not depend on the driver anymore?
That YouTube video comparing the RS 4.0 to the 991 GT3 really had me thinking...
That YouTube video comparing the RS 4.0 to the 991 GT3 really had me thinking...
08-30-2013, 05:58 PM
#73
Three Wheelin'
I'd argue this is a perfect illustration of Porsche's current mistake: they almost went bankrupt because they stopped listening to what the customer wanted.
In the 80s Porsche decided the 928 was the way forward- these were "better" cars than the 911 that they were supposed to replace in every measurable way, and all engineering resources were diverted to these cars while the 911 was allowed to languish.
The only problem was that while the 928 was "better" it wasn't nearly as much fun as the 911. When the 928 was no longer the latest and greatest it didn't sell, and by the early 90s the 911 was going on two decade old technology. When Porsche finally admitted their mistakes they had to hurriedly re-engineer the 911 at serious cost, to the point of adapting the multi-link rear suspension of the 993 to pick up the same old trailing arm attachment points of the original 911 designed back in the 60s!
In the 80s Porsche decided the 928 was the way forward- these were "better" cars than the 911 that they were supposed to replace in every measurable way, and all engineering resources were diverted to these cars while the 911 was allowed to languish.
The only problem was that while the 928 was "better" it wasn't nearly as much fun as the 911. When the 928 was no longer the latest and greatest it didn't sell, and by the early 90s the 911 was going on two decade old technology. When Porsche finally admitted their mistakes they had to hurriedly re-engineer the 911 at serious cost, to the point of adapting the multi-link rear suspension of the 993 to pick up the same old trailing arm attachment points of the original 911 designed back in the 60s!
This whole discussion is just a long-running re-run starting with "I hate the 911, the 356 was so much better; I hate the 964 with it's computer controlled ABS, the 80's 911 was so much better. The 993 is too soft and cushy, the 996 has water cooling, the 997 GT3 has PASM, the 991 has electronic steering, rear steer and PDK" and on and on.
The only thing funny is the fact that the current crop of technology haters think the invasion of their particular sacred recipe is original.
I'll be truly impressed by the first 991 GT3 hater that can show me he unplugged his ABS relay on his first trackday because he wanted to "feel" his brakes.
Right, the $15k-$20k markup over the taureg for the base model cayenne without a/c is all cost...
08-30-2013, 06:03 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
I'd argue this is a perfect illustration of Porsche's current mistake: they almost went bankrupt because they stopped listening to what the customer wanted.
In the 80s Porsche decided the 928 was the way forward- these were "better" cars than the 911 that they were supposed to replace in every measurable way, and all engineering resources were diverted to these cars while the 911 was allowed to languish.
The only problem was that while the 928 was "better" it wasn't nearly as much fun as the 911. When the 928 was no longer the latest and greatest it didn't sell, and by the early 90s the 911 was going on two decade old technology. When Porsche finally admitted their mistakes they had to hurriedly re-engineer the 911 at serious cost, to the point of adapting the multi-link rear suspension of the 993 to pick up the same old trailing arm attachment points of the original 911 designed back in the 60s!
Had Porsche listened to their customers in the 80s and put resources into fun rather than comfort and speed they would not have nearly hit the wall in the 90s.
There will always be plenty in line for the latest and greatest, but that fickle crowd will move on to the next latest and greatest just as quickly as it came. Ignore the real enthusiast who's looking for a driving experience, as porsche did in the 80s, at your peril.
I do, in fact, and I know that Porsche's massive profit margins are driven largely by exactly that! Paint to sample, deviant stitching, choose your own seat belt color, etc.
In the 80s Porsche decided the 928 was the way forward- these were "better" cars than the 911 that they were supposed to replace in every measurable way, and all engineering resources were diverted to these cars while the 911 was allowed to languish.
The only problem was that while the 928 was "better" it wasn't nearly as much fun as the 911. When the 928 was no longer the latest and greatest it didn't sell, and by the early 90s the 911 was going on two decade old technology. When Porsche finally admitted their mistakes they had to hurriedly re-engineer the 911 at serious cost, to the point of adapting the multi-link rear suspension of the 993 to pick up the same old trailing arm attachment points of the original 911 designed back in the 60s!
Had Porsche listened to their customers in the 80s and put resources into fun rather than comfort and speed they would not have nearly hit the wall in the 90s.
There will always be plenty in line for the latest and greatest, but that fickle crowd will move on to the next latest and greatest just as quickly as it came. Ignore the real enthusiast who's looking for a driving experience, as porsche did in the 80s, at your peril.
I do, in fact, and I know that Porsche's massive profit margins are driven largely by exactly that! Paint to sample, deviant stitching, choose your own seat belt color, etc.
08-30-2013, 06:11 PM
#75
Race Director
Unfortunately, all too true, and not just because fewer people are buying them. There is a dim future for MT's in new cars in a world of CAFE standards (37mpg-2016 and 54mpg-2025) populated by hybrids, electrics, and batteries.
Points, rotors, dwell meters, timing lights, carbs, etc. have all gone the way of the dodo and so will MT's. I don't like the prospect, but the fight for the MT is a rear guard action at best. For everyone who loves manuals, I'm afraid disappointment is inevitable.
Points, rotors, dwell meters, timing lights, carbs, etc. have all gone the way of the dodo and so will MT's. I don't like the prospect, but the fight for the MT is a rear guard action at best. For everyone who loves manuals, I'm afraid disappointment is inevitable.