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Old 03-12-2013, 08:47 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by 9972RS View Post
is it just me or has Andreas Preuniger lost all credibility?

He sold us the 997 gt3. It didn't need PDK because it was heavy and un-necessary. The steering was amazing and allowed for excellent feedback. Centerlocks would allow for better track day cars. Except that your warranty would be void.

Now, he's selling us the 991gt3. The PDK is amazing, quickest shifts, etc. The electric steering allows for excellent road feel and feedback. The centerlocks were revised.

what a crock of ****. it's too bad all the car manufacturers are the same. I thought porsche would've kept the GT3 a drivers car. oh well, it's the lesser of two evils.
You sound surprised. Porsche is company. They need to make profit. If you believe everything he said then time for some reflection. He is certainly no crook. He is employed by Porsche and represents them in every interview, video, etc.

The Mezger engine does not mate with the PDK so was never a topic for the 997. Even if it did it might well be that the PDK was unnecessary because the 996/997 chassis had reached its limit.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:45 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by stout View Post
Oh....it's only March but I think FIGJAM may be the funniest thing I read on Rennlist in 2013...

Priceless. Thanks for the laugh. I needed that.

pete
lmao... No probs Pete, just achronyming with the best of them, haha...
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:27 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by savyboy View Post
Enrique- just burned out on the whole marketing vs reality BS. Porsche buyers pay a higher premium for a given technology than any other car buyers, they make more profit off of us than any other car company and we are treated like we have leprosy after we buy the car. I'm soured on all the misrepresentations (*lies*) from the marketing side and the disrespect from the management side. No reason to believe anything will change. We are walking wallets to VAG, nothing more. Not a business I want to support any longer. Other mfg's more honest/transparent/integrity.

Hey man, hope you are well and doing fine!

I agree Pete. Marketing propaganda does not translates to reality with Porsche anymore. Hope all is well in the snowy hills .. I believe Porsche brand has been diluted for several years now. I remember when Porsche dealers would sponsor track days, and would not void your warranty. God forbid if you mention the word track to a SA now days.

Did you add the machine on your avatar ? I hope you did ! I would like to acquire an open wheel race car. Down-force is an awesome sensation
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:14 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by F1CrazyDriver View Post
I agree Pete. Marketing propaganda does not translates to reality with Porsche anymore. Hope all is well in the snowy hills .. I believe Porsche brand has been diluted for several years now. I remember when Porsche dealers would sponsor track days, and would not void your warranty. God forbid if you mention the word track to a SA now days.

Did you add the machine on your avatar ? I hope you did ! I would like to acquire an open wheel race car. Down-force is an awesome sensation
I was invited to drive a McLaren 12C on track recently, by a local dealer. Couldn't make it to he event, but my respect went up a huge amount. Substance over symbolism

Avatar machine delay by a few months, hopefully May delivery. It's not a downforce car BTW, there are compromises to DF- stiff springs (so it doesn't bottom out at high speed) which reduces traction (too stiff) under approx 80 mph and hair trigger reactions at higher speeds if the car gets out of shape, wind gusts etc. BAC wanted the car to be grippy and predictable throughout the operational envelope.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:16 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by savyboy View Post
Enrique- just burned out on the whole marketing vs reality BS. Porsche buyers pay a higher premium for a given technology than any other car buyers, they make more profit off of us than any other car company and we are treated like we have leprosy after we buy the car. I'm soured on all the misrepresentations (*lies*) from the marketing side and the disrespect from the management side. No reason to believe anything will change. We are walking wallets to VAG, nothing more. Not a business I want to support any longer. Other mfg's more honest/transparent/integrity.

Hey man, hope you are well and doing fine!
Way back in 2002, upon the introduction of the $190,000 996 GT2, I wrote a column on the apparent profit margins on Porsche's sports cars...from $40,000~ Boxster to $70,000~ 911 to $115,000~ 911 Turbo to $190,000~ 911 GT2 given the content of each.

As to the new GT3, I've got my personal feelings (hate that there is no manual option, skeptical of rear-steer in this platform, think CLs are stupid) and then what I need to remember in my line of work: Don't judge something until you drive it—especially when it's a Porsche. I've seen its products surprise me both ways, being less impressive than expected (997.1 GT3) and more impressive than expected (Boxster Spyder). I asked Preuninger about centerlocks and more in Geneva, and his answer to most of the questions was: Wait until you drive it. And that's when it'll either fly or it won't. That said, no manual = less interest in the GT3 for me, and, it would appear a lot of people. The thing I hate most, however, is that those who express their enjoyment of the process of shifting their own gears are termed luddites or against progress. I've been all for water-cooling, PSM, variable-ratio steering, PTV, PCCB, etc because they all enhance the drive and do their thing transparently. Also, they don't steal anything from the primary inputs I enjoy making. Electro-mechanical steering (I suspect it will get better, just as hydraulic did and PASM has), PDCC, and now forced PDK in the GT3, however, have left me cold. I liked the GT3 precisely because it was the back to basics choice, and preferred the 996.2 GT3 to all that came after it until the RS 4.0—which had very valuable chassis refinements and the whole car gelled so well that it showed me PASM etc. could be made to be every bit as sweet as that old simple GT3 that started the flame for me. And if you offered me either, I'd take the 4.0.

So maybe the new 3 will be alright. It's got a hell of a reputation to live up to in my book, though, and I could care less about its numbers so long as they represent progress. As to Porsche's current direction, I lament the fact that the Carrera GT, unlike the 959, did not signal the future of the rest of the model line. In the CGT, we saw a "conventional sports car" rendered with new materials technology rather than more gizmos and safety nets. As such, it was a superlative driver's car (also a dangerous one). I hope the Boxster Spyder wasn't the last simple, lightweight Porsche for a while, but we'll see. When I think about the customers, the competition, VAG, and the press, Porsche's job ain't easy.

pete
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:21 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by StirlingMoss View Post
You sound surprised. Porsche is company. They need to make profit. If you believe everything he said then time for some reflection. He is certainly no crook. He is employed by Porsche and represents them in every interview, video, etc.

The Mezger engine does not mate with the PDK so was never a topic for the 997. Even if it did it might well be that the PDK was unnecessary because the 996/997 chassis had reached its limit.
well, but he (997RS) has a fair point. I dont consider their - or APs communication very fair either. I hope he knows what he is talking about..because with todays internet..everything is transparent. Lets imagine the case where rear wheel steering, CL etc...make issues again..which I hope not..but is he then still credible for you? For me then certainly not anymore.

The issue of the CL Management for 997 owners ..gives us unfortunately reason for doubt. You cant tell me that its well managed..now GT3 owners will have to pay roughly 5K extra maintenance in 10 years..if not more. Is that a remarkable innovation? - or striving customer behaviour?

If in your daily life your plumber, car mechanic, gardener would do such a work..what would you do? I am big Porsche fan too..but they also make mistakes..like others too. But their name doesnt protect them form making mistakes and unfortunately, the number of these mistakes has been increasing lately....
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:18 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by stout View Post
Way back in 2002, upon the introduction of the $190,000 996 GT2, I wrote a column on the apparent profit margins on Porsche's sports cars...from $40,000~ Boxster to $70,000~ 911 to $115,000~ 911 Turbo to $190,000~ 911 GT2 given the content of each.

As to the new GT3, I've got my personal feelings (hate that there is no manual option, skeptical of rear-steer in this platform, think CLs are stupid) and then what I need to remember in my line of work: Don't judge something until you drive it—especially when it's a Porsche. I've seen its products surprise me both ways, being less impressive than expected (997.1 GT3) and more impressive than expected (Boxster Spyder). I asked Preuninger about centerlocks and more in Geneva, and his answer to most of the questions was: Wait until you drive it. And that's when it'll either fly or it won't. That said, no manual = less interest in the GT3 for me, and, it would appear a lot of people. The thing I hate most, however, is that those who express their enjoyment of the process of shifting their own gears are termed luddites or against progress. I've been all for water-cooling, PSM, variable-ratio steering, PTV, PCCB, etc because they all enhance the drive and do their thing transparently. Also, they don't steal anything from the primary inputs I enjoy making. Electro-mechanical steering (I suspect it will get better, just as hydraulic did and PASM has), PDCC, and now forced PDK in the GT3, however, have left me cold. I liked the GT3 precisely because it was the back to basics choice, and preferred the 996.2 GT3 to all that came after it until the RS 4.0—which had very valuable chassis refinements and the whole car gelled so well that it showed me PASM etc. could be made to be every bit as sweet as that old simple GT3 that started the flame for me. And if you offered me either, I'd take the 4.0.

So maybe the new 3 will be alright. It's got a hell of a reputation to live up to in my book, though, and I could care less about its numbers so long as they represent progress. As to Porsche's current direction, I lament the fact that the Carrera GT, unlike the 959, did not signal the future of the rest of the model line. In the CGT, we saw a "conventional sports car" rendered with new materials technology rather than more gizmos and safety nets. As such, it was a superlative driver's car (also a dangerous one). I hope the Boxster Spyder wasn't the last simple, lightweight Porsche for a while, but we'll see. When I think about the customers, the competition, VAG, and the press, Porsche's job ain't easy.

pete
Thoughtful and well stated. I'd like to comment on one thing you wrote. Personally, as a long time (decades) MT driver I've never considered anyone who relishes the pleasures of shifting for themselves a luddite or against progress, and have never used those terms. However, as someone who adopted PDK in my Carrera S 4 years ago I have read hundreds of comments about how PDK is for poseurs, people who can't shift a MT, the Cars and Coffee crowd, the Starbucks crowd, people who want one hand free for their lattes, etc. I'm sure you've read some of those comments as well.

My take is that some who appreciate PDK have begun to push back with a little name calling of their own. Luddite is as inaccurate in describing MT drivers as poseur, for example, is to describe a PDK owner, but it's just human nature to respond and what goes around sometimes comes around. I wouldn't be too wounded by the use of the term luddite. If you go back through all the posts and comments on this subject I suspect you'll find the people knocking PDK owners still have a very sizeable lead.

BTW, I love what you've started to do with Panorama.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:46 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by stout View Post
Way back in 2002, upon the introduction of the $190,000 996 GT2, I wrote a column on the apparent profit margins on Porsche's sports cars...from $40,000~ Boxster to $70,000~ 911 to $115,000~ 911 Turbo to $190,000~ 911 GT2 given the content of each.

As to the new GT3, I've got my personal feelings (hate that there is no manual option, skeptical of rear-steer in this platform, think CLs are stupid) and then what I need to remember in my line of work: Don't judge something until you drive it—especially when it's a Porsche. I've seen its products surprise me both ways, being less impressive than expected (997.1 GT3) and more impressive than expected (Boxster Spyder). I asked Preuninger about centerlocks and more in Geneva, and his answer to most of the questions was: Wait until you drive it. And that's when it'll either fly or it won't. That said, no manual = less interest in the GT3 for me, and, it would appear a lot of people. The thing I hate most, however, is that those who express their enjoyment of the process of shifting their own gears are termed luddites or against progress. I've been all for water-cooling, PSM, variable-ratio steering, PTV, PCCB, etc because they all enhance the drive and do their thing transparently. Also, they don't steal anything from the primary inputs I enjoy making. Electro-mechanical steering (I suspect it will get better, just as hydraulic did and PASM has), PDCC, and now forced PDK in the GT3, however, have left me cold. I liked the GT3 precisely because it was the back to basics choice, and preferred the 996.2 GT3 to all that came after it until the RS 4.0—which had very valuable chassis refinements and the whole car gelled so well that it showed me PASM etc. could be made to be every bit as sweet as that old simple GT3 that started the flame for me. And if you offered me either, I'd take the 4.0.

So maybe the new 3 will be alright. It's got a hell of a reputation to live up to in my book, though, and I could care less about its numbers so long as they represent progress. As to Porsche's current direction, I lament the fact that the Carrera GT, unlike the 959, did not signal the future of the rest of the model line. In the CGT, we saw a "conventional sports car" rendered with new materials technology rather than more gizmos and safety nets. As such, it was a superlative driver's car (also a dangerous one). I hope the Boxster Spyder wasn't the last simple, lightweight Porsche for a while, but we'll see. When I think about the customers, the competition, VAG, and the press, Porsche's job ain't easy.

pete

I'm writting this from my phone while on the train going home so sorry for the grammar/misspelling.

My two main points, and I believe Pete's point of view and mine share common ground are the following. I'm not interested in buying a GT3 that has lost its core values. (unless they are on the Cup/RSR car sure). The GT3 does not hold a candle to my Model S in terms of technology. I LOVE technology, and embrace it.( My model S makes ANY new 911 feel prehistoric. The model S set the tone for what future cars should be like) The CORE essence of the existence of a GT3 (and a GT2) is very simple. Pont 1) Able to purchase a street legal race car of the Cup / RSR. That is THE reason why Porsche made the vehicle. The GT3 / GT2 where made for those customers whom wanted that Cup/RSR experience that they could drive to the track and back home. It is picking the right tool for the right job. Give me a hammer to hammer down a nail. Don't give me a hammer with fancy philips screw driver on the handle. I have another philips screw driver that does the JOB better than this dual purpose you created.
Point 2) If your CORE reason for bringing back the GT3 15 years ago was to give me the Cup/RSR feel and you, Porsche CREATED that fan base, I expect you to honor it.
You created a machine for the intent use of the weekend track warriors, and MARKETING and KNOWLINGLY knowing that these customer that you are targeting with this machine will TAKE this car to the track and push every component to the limit. I expect Porsche to give me the safest components ( not CL) and a machine that is a slightly water down version of the Cup/RSR. I expect you fully well to know what i'm doing with this machine and honor your warranty and listen to the fan base you created back with the Mk1 GT3.
What Porsche has done is taken the GT3 and stripped it of its core to be able to sell it to EVERYONE who has the $. They created a magical image thanks to them providing and RESPECTING the values of those people whom developed the image of what a GT3 is today. But they have now destroyed it with this 911. They have told their original core customer base of a GT3 owner, (that Porsche created) and told them to F off, made it into a DD car to grasp a bigger market. They are attracting poseurs to a model that was not intended for your rich jockeys' to show off at the golf course about their latest and greatest toy.
It reminds of me how Porsche 30+ years ago created a devoted fan base for the 911. Then you said F you, the 944 is replacing it. All 911 Porschepheliastes went crazy. The rich jockey's didnt care. As long as it is a premium brand they could show off, they were fine with that. Same today. You took a Cup/RSR car and made it street legal known as the GT3/2. Now you have made diluted the GT3 to just a hyped up 911 C2s with very little ties to what it was originally was suppose to originate from but you still market it as a track car. When I tell you I took it to the track my Porsche warranty is void. and it no longer as those ties to the Cup/RSR.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:36 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by F1CrazyDriver View Post
It reminds of me how Porsche 30+ years ago created a devoted fan base for the 911. Then you said F you, the 944 is replacing it. All 911 Porschepheliastes went crazy. The rich jockey's didnt care. As long as it is a premium brand they could show off, they were fine with that. Same today.
In general, Enrique, I understand where you are coming from. First, just a point of historical clarification. The 944 was never considered as a replacement for the 911. That role was assigned to the 928! Managing Director Ernst Fuhrmann thought that was the way to go...and Ferry Porsche was apparently not opposed. It is believed that Peter Schutz, Ernst replacement as CEO, and other influential board members didn't allow that to happen. I lived through that era and followed it closely! We all know where the 928 ended up...back to the future as the new 'Panamera'! But I digress.

Take our your references to 'rich jockey's' (sounds awful like 'Occupy America' speak) and I am with you, brother! I must tell you that some of the BIGGEST proponents of the purest-type 991 gt3 are very wealthy Porsche enthusiasts in these United States! Who do you think are ordering these cars? This is not a 'class struggle or warfare', it is (in my opinion) a fundamental misjudgment by PAG, PCNA & their lawyers of a niche market segment that had, until now, a 'halo' effect on their entire model lineup in the US! The average 991 'Carrera' and 'S' buyer in America revels in the fact that a 911 very similar to theirs - a gt3 - is out on the track every weekend mixing it up with the best from Italy, Japan, etc! Now, they will see less, not more, gt3's doing that and eventually they will start to wonder 'why'! That is not smart policy...or thoughtful marketing, both on the short or the long run!

I believe PCNA will try to make it up to us in the upcoming US spec gt3 RS! They will try to make the RS bullet-proof (re: improved CL, etc.) before they release it next year. These kind of embarrassing failures (plus the liability) is what they are trying to avoid by making the base 991 gt3 less recreational track-friendly, while all the 'new' components are rigorously tested! And it will have proper sport bucket seats (with airbags). Nevertheless, the 991 gt3 'unveiling' at Geneva (for what was said & was not said; what is included & what is not) has left a sour taste in the mouth of many of their former staunch Porsche customers & supporters here in this country! And you & many others in this RL forum have expressed yourselves very eloquently on the subject matter!

Saludos,
Eduardo
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:04 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by jumper5836 View Post
Disappointing. Was looking forward to owning one of these some day but it looks like my buck stops with a 997.

I don't give a flying crap that it gains on a long straight and I get more goose bumps doing it myself. I don't get goose bumps watching it happen on tv, in the passengers seat or with two hands on the wheel. Complete utter garbage.
Amen brother...

If you can't heel-toe you may as well drive a bus...

Xbox generation crap... marketing specs taking over the world... could not care less about millisecond this, or millisecond that... the digital world has afforded us many quality of life improvements, shifting is not one of them

what's next ? no more oversteer?
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:18 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by speef View Post
what's next ? no more oversteer?
Yes, no doubt. The Lotus Exige S already have this with the latest Bosch traction wizardry.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:27 AM
  #72  
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Z356 and above posters, I respect your knowledge, experience and point of view immensely. But here I will depart. Weve all been watching the 911 get larger, more luxurious, faster and infused with more and more technology since 1965. So whats different? We (who have cared to follow the new GT3s development closely) have known about the PDK and the non Mezger engine now for 6 months. So whats different? Heck, a decade ago the blokes on Ferrarichat.com would never have anticipated a future with zero manual F car offerings, but today they have no manual options (and the 458 doesn't look half bad from where I sit).

I have never bought a new 911 (couldn't justify nor afford). Im a bit of a purist (look at my list of current and past cars - how many here have owned a 993RS or a 996.1 GT3?) so I feel justified in my opinion. Ill pin my colours to the board and say I booked in for the new 991 GT3, 6 months ago and I knew it would have PDK only (look at my past posts and you will be aware of what I stated last year). Why? Because the standard 911 has become too flabby, large and comfortable and the 991 GT3 was the closest product in the range I could see that would have he perfect blend of usability, performance and cachet. Essentially I figured the 991 GT3 would put the dial back a bit to how the standard 991 should be out of the box for me. Will I sell my 993 6speed (highly modified, lightened and improved) stead - heck no! What would I do Tarmac rallys in or enjoy on the track to test my skills (manual, no traction control, raw feel)? I want the best of both worlds so the 991 GT3 compliments my air cooled old skool 993 just perfectly.

Wheres this going? Maybe the new 991 GT3 is the old 1972 911S. Maybe you were all expecting the 1973 911RS. If so I think you really need to look at the 911 GT3 in the context of the current automotive world. Porsche is now VW, dual clutch cars are now more common than manual ones, technology has helped us go faster, safer, more reliably and using less fuel. Of course this is the new GT3 and of course it was always going to be like this. Why the surprise? Why the sullen looks? There will be another product for you (hopefully the 991 GT3RS or 960). Or you could vote with your wallet and buy and "old skool" 997.1 GT3 or 996.2 GT3. Heck, even go buy a 964 or 993 and spend a tonne of cash lightening it up, adding hp and making it your dream track machine....

I, like most of the future 2000 odd 991 GT3 owners, will not track the car every weekend. Sure Ill likely do the odd DE and some fast back roads. It will handle better than anything we have seen before. It may even surprise those here by being an exceptionally entertaining "automatic" sports car. It will look purposeful, sound wonderful, cover ground with some relative comfort and hey you might even get you wife on board with the PDK. So what? AP didn't make repeated comments to various different highly regarded international press of "wait till you try this and call me if you don't agree" just to put his ***** on the line for a day and watch them getting crushed over the coming months - of course they will all try the car and of course they will crush his ***** if he wasn't on the mark! That's why they are among other things, critics!

What I wanted to say is simply why all the surprise, really? We are all smart car enthusiasts and we all knew this was coming. There are few surprises here. AP says this is the greatest GT3 ever and it possibly is. Walter Rohl will lap the ring in some ridiculous time, get out and say the electric steering and PDK is sublime and the way of the future, and it probably is. The only vote the consumer makes is with his wallet and Im afraid regardless of the feelings on this board those 2000 units ,(or whatever number they produce), will all be sold.

So, if moving with the new GT3 isnt for you, hold onto your "old" 911 (GT3/RS or whatever) and vote by keeping your money in your pocket. Heck, celebrate by buying some lightweight seats and plan to own that car for another decade or two. That's what I did and Ive owned my 993 for 13 years (loved every moment of it and looked at the newer models and constantly said - no air cooled, not light enough, too large, too fat, etc etc etc). At some stage you feel you want to get back "into the game" but it has to be a car that has moved on enough to make you feel it will provide a noticeable difference to what you have , and have had for a long time, a car that meets your practical lifestyle and your passions at the apex, and for me the 991 GT3 is precisely that machine at this precise time. If I were a hardcore track junkie Id own an ex cup-car, if I wanted more bling Id buy a F car. This car is many different things to many different people - I just think too many on this board had this car pegged to be something it isn't and could never be - because time doesn't stand still.....

One mans opinion...
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:34 AM
  #73  
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Respect! Fully agree with that post.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:52 AM
  #74  
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+1.
great post, macca.

it will be a great roadcar.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:47 PM
  #75  
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+3 Great post Macca.

It will be a great road car and likely embarrass not just a few "track cars".
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