evilfij

But not radio (maybe, was a later added option) or AC delete (which was never offered on the 991.2 GT3).

GT3 KSA

I asked if it is really worth the delta over the touring considering he has driven both cars that was all.

stout

Pretty sure this falls under "driving impressions" embargo until the 15th. Need to respect that. If someone breaks the embargo, that's a another matter.

When it comes to 911s, I am a coupe guy (roofline is part of the appeal to me), so I'd rather have a Touring out of the box for that reason alone. I do like open cars, too, but then I'm looking at things like 356, 914, 986/987/981, CGT, etc.

And tractors and Jeeps. But I digress...

You are welcome!

That emotional thing is what makes a car like this possible. I'm a coupe guy when it comes to 911s, but the emotional pull of certain cars for certain people is strong. Felt a lot of connections to the A1 and A2 GTIs I used to love as a kid in the first few months with our new Mk5 GTI years ago...it was like I had grown up, and so had the GTI. It's easy to get cynical (and for good reason, at times), but these connections are powerful.

I'm hindered on sharing driving impressions for now. Were it me with an existing RS, my first call would be to Sharkwerks. Not just because I like those guys—and no, I don't make a dime if you buy something from them—but because the best sounding flat six I have ever driven had their exhaust on it. It was possible to "drive it quiet" if you knew how to play it, and like a Cup car on the north coast. Have less experience with their post-997 stuff, but if they made that setup, I'd be tempted to do whatever it is they're doing for the 991 GT cars.

^ Very good analysis—spot on, actually.

As I understand it (which is a big caveat), all U.S. cars will be getting the mesh to replicate the back pressure of the particulate filters—with filters added to U.S. cars somewhere down the road if/when required.

As a 911 coupe guy, agreed—the 911R was better priced. Got to the bottom of this with someone from Porsche while there, and it's a matter of the body configuration: Gearbox aside, the 911R was a pretty easy car to make in development terms. The reason the Speedster is so much more expensive is the cost of developing the top system and spreading those costs over a business case with 1,948 cars rather than tens of thousands of cars.

In the U.S., yes due to rear camera/screen requirement. In Europe and presumably elsewhere, it can be had without PCM.

As far as I can tell, they are Satin Aluminum—which is slightly lighter than the silver paint and has no gloss. I preferred it over all other wheel colors at the launch. While wheel color is a super personal thing, I like the Satin Aluminum both because they are the most "mechanical/metal" finish, but also because my eye suggests the amount of bodywork at the rear of the Speedster needs as much wheel under it as possible, and big silver wheels help there.

I don't have info I can share on the above, but will say this re: conspiracy theories: I'd be surprised if VAG or any of its subsidiaries—or, for that matter, any other carmaker—tried to pull anything with emissions right now. The climate around that stuff here and abroad is highly sensitive, for obvious reasons. My guess is whatever is done is going to be by the book, and that may take time in each case.

Yep. Fair points, and you can certainly look at it that way. They're going to look at it (and market it) as "Speedster spec" weight vs "Touring spec" weight. To that end, there are things like PCM (some markets), floor mats, etc that need to "weighed" in trying to get a real weight comparison. Of course, that is fraught too, as you have to add PCCB to the Touring...

Body in white not same as a Cabrio. Asked about that in the interview for 000 (if that's what I do with it), and we went from the front to the back of the car. It's closer to a 911R or GT3 Touring without a roof, and the lower windshield was a serious commitment in terms of R&D, safety, etc.

While the theme is "911R without a roof), the 911R is a bad marker when it comes to weight.

I hate ADM, but have little to add to that discussion—I'm more interested in and better equipped to convey information on the cars as cars. Your analysis above may or may not hold true. As a coupe guy, the 911R would be more interesting to me. However, there are a lot of people who love convertibles, and I think a lot of us here on RL—particularly in track-oriented car forums—are coupe-oriented and possibly out of synch with that market. Hard to know.

Now this is the one thing I am not interested in. Decided a while ago that I have zero interest in being part of the video culture or the "selfie" culture when it comes to content. No knocks against it, as some are born with the talent and use it well to the entertainment of many, but just not my bag. Goal of 000 is smaller audience, and possibly some events that are very different in flavor to what's out there, or what is right for other organizations. Goal is to add things to the landscape rather than compete with what's already out there—and there are plenty of internet TV personalities. So I'll leave that to them!

^ Exactly. No one does this better, that I have seen, than Petevb.

Yes, that is correct. The Speedster has same spring rates as the GT3 Touring because of the brace—which was made possible by its top design/cartridge.

Correct.

Which is not surprising at all. Tried to compare that in a haze at a stopover in Munich, but gave up. It's the right comparison. Difference to note is the rigidity gained in the Speedster, which I think comes at a cost of the new structural member's weight. IIRC, it's metal and not terribly heavy but not flyweight either. Trying to remember if it was 18kg or 18lbs, or 15-20 something, I think. Can work on getting the right number and materials. I guess no one else asked, as the answer wasn't canned.

stout

While we are waiting in this trough for the driving impressions embargo to be lifted, I spotted the Speedster configuration thread and posted the below after spending time with the Speedster. Not meant to suggest it's the right spec for someone else, but it's the way I would go...

After spending a couple of days around the Speedster in Sardinia, and a day behind the wheel while watching others on the road, here's what I'd order if no PTS:

PKIA5592
http://www.porsche-code.com/PKIA5592


Primary reasoning: I think silver really suits this car (I haven't bought a silver car for almost 20 years...), as will metallics (and normally I am a "uni" car). Metallics play up the character lines on the rear panels, and also "de-bulk" some areas due to the highlights fading to darkness. As for the interior, I'd actually skip the two-tone and red stitching in favor of classic black with black stitching, but go off the deep end on leather (a bit) because the car didn't feel like a lightweight to me on the road, and should feel expensive given its price point. Fire extinguisher and red belts and red 12 o'clock marker to add hints of sport/safety equipment, a nod to the original Speedster's primary usage in CA.

If PTS really is available and can be obtained, I'd think about 1980s Linen Metallic or some other "silver/champagne" color that picks up the warmth of vintage silvers of the 356/550 era. If LTS is offered, I'd be thinking about green leather on a straight silver of some sort (like the old 356s) or possibly Linen Metallic or similar on big grain Ascot Brown from the CGT.

YMMV!

Archimedes

As someone who thinks the rear end of the Speedster is a total mess, I have to agree that it looks best in Silver in those pics, by far. Silver masks some of the bulbous ingongruity of everything and looks the best.

soulsea

emphasis mine

I appreciate that this is the official explanation.

May I ask if you personally believe that these accommodations and their development costs truly justify the msrp of this car?
Do they really represent the delta between the base msrps of a GT3RS and the Speedster?

Understand that such costs are going to be higher than other models because they have to be spread across such a low volume car, but in my humble opinion, albeit an ignorant one as I do not have knowledge of manufacturing accounting, it seems an obvious conclusion that Porsche decided to grab the money for themselves instead of the flippers. Which is fine, but then lets call it what it is rather than the a pillar and bracing cost us so much that we had to charge $100k more base price for a car over the 3RS, which not for nothing, resolves to $194,800,000 ... that must be some bracing.

Given your circumstances this is more of a rhetorical question to make a point ... the rest of your information is very illuminating a greatly appreciated, and like others I am jonesing to hear your driving impressions.

Edit to clarify: This isn't a value post. As per your post quoted above, you opened the door with referencing cost, so I'm am responding directly to that.

BusDriver

Could you find out more on the elimination of the centrifugal pendulum dampener. Should make the engine more responsive.

Enjoying this thread!
Looking forward to your driving impressions soon.

stout

These are good questions, and I'll tackle them in order.

If we are getting into my personal beliefs, as a coupe guy when it comes to 911s, there's no way I could justify the MSRP of this car—for me. But your first question is a bit more nuanced, and leads to your next question...if I understand it correctly. And, in that case, the answer is I truly don't know as Porsche rarely shares its back end costs (true for a lot of companies). They sold a lot of 991.1 GT3 RS, and a fair few 991.2 GT3 RS as well. More than the Speedster, I think, and the car was still a coupe like its basis. Yes, a lot of new panels, aero, wheel well stuffing, etc, but still modifications to an existing body in white (GT3, which itself is based on a mix of Carrera 4, Turbo, etc). I don't know what it costs to develop a 22-pound clamshell, complete top system safe to 192+ mph that's much more user friendly than the 997 Speedster top, new A-pillars and windshield that meet roll-over requirements, etc. So, I'm ill equipped to answer that. Is the above helpful? I am not so sure, which gets into the why I don't love "value" discussions. I will say this: The MSRP of this car makes a lot more sense to me than the last Speedster, which drove the same as a better looking and mechanically identical 997.2 Carrera GTS (I drove them back to back for a long road test for Excellence). IIRC, the delta on the 997.2 Carrera GTS to 997.2 Speedster was big $$ also. Just looked...it was $204,000 base price for a run of 356 cars versus $113,850 for a GTS Cabriolet—so that's ~1.79x the price. (Interestingly, a 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet is currently $133,000, making the Speedster ~2.06x; mitigating factors include a lot more cars with what I suspect are better panels and a GT3 engine.)

((Please note, I am an English major, and jet-lagged, so it might be good to double check my math.))

If people are really approaching this car on a value basis, I don't know as I'll be of much help. There are plenty of outlets interested in telling people what stuff should be worth. I am a driver...that's really all that interests me in a car, followed in a distant second by what I think about how a car looks/sounds/is to live with/etc. Put it that way, and those looking for value might be surprised by how much they'd like a car that no one ordered: A base 991.2 Carrera Cabriolet 7MT with 4WSS+, GT steering wheel, and not much else. Given how closely the base Carrera and the Carrera T drive, and some of the raves about the T we've seen from GT3 drivers here on RL as well as my own raves, I suspect some people would be genuinely surprised by how much fun they'd have in a base Carrera Cab. And they might use it…a lot. And leave it places. But, for others, there's "specialness" about cars—however they define that—and the Speedster is going to tick those boxes with things like rarity, an NA flat six, a 6MT, the bodywork, the brakes, the wheels, etc.

I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer to the above. There's just what one person likes or doesn't like in the end.

And yes, I am jonesing to share my take on the driving of the Speedster, too!

Right on, and can look more into. No promises, as I am back in the states, but I do have some followup to do and will include this.

I did ask about the "lightweight dual-mass" flywheel in this car, and learned or re-learned some things about that. Short of it is this flywheel is lighter than previous attempts, and along with other rotating mass tweaks goes some way toward replicating the overall rotating mass of the 911R. So why not add a SMF to a 991.2 GT3 for the benefit? Answer is harmonics with the .2 GT3 engine...and while you can do it and it will feel great when you drive out of the shop, it won't be so happy a few thousand miles (?) later when one of the main bearings is compromised by the harmonics.

Will have more on the revvviness of this engine when I can share my driving impressions…

stout

All good, and no worries!

I did my best with it above. Maybe useful perspective, maybe not. Just my take.

soulsea

And it honestly wasn't a value question as that would be a buyer's perspective ... it was a price justification question from the pov of the manufacturer, which I still find suspect.

I really appreciate your honest and authentic answer to my question.

Even with jet lag, you sir are a class act.

Cheers!

Waxer

The price is the price regardless of how they arrived at it. Main question is really whether all this is relevant to the average GT buyer..i.e can we actually get one? I suspect not.

Good info Pete.

evilfij

Stout,

I don’t think this is a driving impression but can you share your view of the grey top windscreen if any of the cars had it? It’s a new option I am not familiar with and some pictures or impression of it would be helpful in deciding to order or not.

Targa Tim

Just finished reading these 9 pages, Thanks very much Pete!

Really looking forward to your driving report.

As for value, only the buyer himself will know if it is worth it or not.

I think it is about $50K more expensive than I anticipate, but I will buy one anyway.

At this price, Speedster is the preferred sport car for me in comparison to what the current Ferrari, Lambo or McLaren is offering, as I have stopped chasing for horsepower long time ago.

BrntRubber

I agree fully on pricing and the other offerings. Cars have too much hp these days

Ch01

If someone should not take his allocation, please contact me. My Porsche center is rather small, got only one allocation that was given to other customer already 2 years on the waiting list... It would be fantastic if this forum could help true enthusiasts...

Thanks in advance.