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Here's a table from EVO. Same car, same day, same driver. After 10 crash stops from 100 mph, the iron brakes were still stopping shorter than the ceramics. It was only after 14-15 crash stops that the ceramics were better.
In the end, they said that the tyres had more to do with the stopping distance than the brakes.
And a quote from Marino Franchitti
‘The first impression with carbon brakes is the complete lack of stopping power until they come up to temperature – you have very little bite initially, whereas conventional rotors have close to optimal stopping power from cold. Also, while they come up to temperature there’s a point where they just grab and lock up very easily"
In generally cold climates I think the ceramics are less of a must then in hot climates.
And they maybe a bit scare driving to the track in freezing temps.
On the very heavy on brakes tracks where it is hot, steel just cant cope.
Most all tracks I have driven aren't has hard on brakes then is Sebring and VIR for example.
Eventually after 30 minutes you have to back off, or the pedal will get softer and softer until you will back off.
Also, the front tires gain a lot more PSI because they just get too hot as well..
Most tracks and most climates are OK, but the few that are not, really demand Ceramic rotors if you want to hammer the brakes all day long as if its a cold day..
So when I went from steel to ST rotors it was an instant .5 seconds due to weight and stopping power, but the thing that blew me away was that the brakes and front tires were still able to go for a fast lap at the end of the session, something not possible on steel brakes.
Cost is another story of course but the refurbishing cost of the ST rotors @$600 a corner and half price of the cost of PCCB, make it a nice middle of the road option for me.
In generally cold climates I think the ceramics are less of a must then in hot climates.
And they maybe a bit scare driving to the track in freezing temps.
On the very heavy on brakes tracks where it is hot, steel just cant cope.
Most all tracks I have driven aren't has hard on brakes then is Sebring and VIR for example.
Eventually after 30 minutes you have to back off, or the pedal will get softer and softer until you will back off.
Also, the front tires gain a lot more PSI because they just get too hot as well..
Most tracks and most climates are OK, but the few that are not, really demand Ceramic rotors if you want to hammer the brakes all day long as if its a cold day..
So when I went from steel to ST rotors it was an instant .5 seconds due to weight and stopping power, but the thing that blew me away was that the brakes and front tires were still able to go for a fast lap at the end of the session, something not possible on steel brakes.
Cost is another story of course but the refurbishing cost of the ST rotors @$600 a corner and half price of the cost of PCCB, make it a nice middle of the road option for me.
Agreed, a nice middle ground.
BTW, I was expecting to see the new PSCBs to appear as an option on the GT cars because they seemed like a perfect middle ground. But since their launch on the Cayenne, they seem to have disappeared off the radar. Not even offered on the Panamera. I wonder whats happened to them.
IMHO, the PCCB is just a money maker for Porsche and other auto manufacturers. They have that cool factor as they are used in F1 and other top spec race series. But for the average sports car driver and track rat, they only cost you more money in the long run with no real benefit to safety or lap times. When I was growing up it was mag wheels everyone wanted. Sure magnesium is lighter than steel and aluminum, but didn't really offer the average gear head any real benefit. Neither do PCCB.
Could not not imagine a 911 without ceramics but I don’t do track time. The wheels are always pristine and this was a very reasonable option IMO plus they are astecially pleasing vs the reds.
Agreed, a nice middle ground.
BTW, I was expecting to see the new PSCBs to appear as an option on the GT cars because they seemed like a perfect middle ground. But since their launch on the Cayenne, they seem to have disappeared off the radar. Not even offered on the Panamera. I wonder whats happened to them.
i have been searching for the PSCB’s as a few friends are ordering new Pors he’s and they are nowhere to be found!
If the ceramics were marginally more costly to replace the discussion would be very different. Furthermore the well documented issues with the Gen I PCCBs set the conventional wisdom despite major improvements in the technology and manufacturing over 15 years. If you are using your GT car as a race car, then yes the iron rotors are the only way to go.
all I've ever needed to know about PCCB's and track use is that they are not an option on Cupcar's a car for which reducing rotational mass is an obsession and saving weight in general an obsession. PCCB's are great for street use and under normal use will last virtually forever - for track use I just can't stomach the cost to replace them when they wear out (you can literally buy an entire Honda Accord SE Hybrid for less money that just the parts for a 4 wheel PCCB's service).
PCCB's are a very very expensive track option that IMHO don't really deliver that much benefit over a good set of steel brakes.
They aren't on cup cars because the regs don't allow them. Same for most series until you get to F1 and LMP1.
I personally prefer the feel/modulation of irons to PCCB. Have had them on street cars in sub zero temps, right out of the car wash, etc and never had any issue w stopping power, just don't feel like they are worth the cost and risk. In almost all circumstances tire grip is the limiting factor, each will lock the wheel and engage ABS until the most extreme circumstances (which I would argue most here will never approach, especially w track pads and proper fluid.)
Here's a table from EVO. Same car, same day, same driver. After 10 crash stops from 100 mph, the iron brakes were still stopping shorter than the ceramics. It was only after 14-15 crash stops that the ceramics were better.
In the end, they said that the tyres had more to do with the stopping distance than the brakes.
And a quote from Marino Franchitti
‘The first impression with carbon brakes is the complete lack of stopping power until they come up to temperature – you have very little bite initially, whereas conventional rotors have close to optimal stopping power from cold. Also, while they come up to temperature there’s a point where they just grab and lock up very easily"
What car? That could make all the difference in the world. But again, panic braking is almost irrelevant, as tires are the limiting factor. What is relevant is brake pedal feel at speed and the PCCBs are simply better in that department and they don't fade.
IMHO, the PCCB is just a money maker for Porsche and other auto manufacturers. They have that cool factor as they are used in F1 and other top spec race series. But for the average sports car driver and track rat, they only cost you more money in the long run with no real benefit to safety or lap times.
Is that why Porsche always uses a PCCB car when they want to turn a fast lap time in one of their models? Or why many of their factory race drivers swear by the PCCBs, as do guys like Randy Pobst? Because they want to look cool?
The only downside to PCCB is cost. Always kinda funny hearing folks complain about the cost of PCCB when they spent thousands wrapping their steering tunnel in leather, lighting the doorjam, changing the color of stitching on their leather coated dashboard, etc.
Is that why Porsche always uses a PCCB car when they want to turn a fast lap time in one of their models? Or why many of their factory race drivers swear by the PCCBs, as do guys like Randy Pobst? Because they want to look cool?
The only downside to PCCB is cost. Always kinda funny hearing folks complain about the cost of PCCB when they spent thousands wrapping their steering tunnel in leather, lighting the doorjam, changing the color of stitching on their leather coated dashboard, etc.
if only it were 10k to do the brakes - it's a lot more and if you do all 4 it's closer to 30k for a full brake job. Just cause I can afford the car doesn't mean I want to spend 30k on consumables for very little noticeable difference.
in 997 I always ran iron brakes, never got the ceramic thing...used black track wheels so I never cleaned them
on Touring I bought a speced car, I daily drive it...after 300 miles I found a set of almost new pccb and pads for less than pccb cost from Porsche new...had them put on ( have to space out red caliper). I can tell them are on the car...noticeably lighter feeling....and my wheels are clean...as I don’t wash my cars
on on RS I ordered iron...as I dont like yellow caliper...going to put a set of take off pccb on it and sell iron...I think yellow caliper is cheesy....but that’s me
they are not $30k a set....$12,100 an axle for rotor from suncosdt...and under $4k an axle with pads on pre owned
I’ll do 5-10 track days a year...so every two years I get a new set
if I decide to track heavy I’ll put ST on RS
to each his own, I love ceramics...those of u that don’t...keep hating them...I’ll buy your take off rotors
If PCCBs were $1.5-2K/corner to run or replace, I’d bite the bullet and track with PCCBs. However at $6K per corner, I simply can’t afford it. I’d run ST CCB but the initial $12K buy-in equals 3-4yrs of girodiscs (as you simply replace the rings after the first buy)! Those who say the difference in braking performance is marginal btw PCCBs and cast iron rotors, have likely never tracked both on the same car/circuit. My 997TTS came with PCCBs which I tracked at Monticello and NJMP after which I switched to Girodiscs and ran the same tracks. On track, the primary advantage of PCCBs were (1) firmer initial bite for the same pedal pressure, and (2) better consistency in braking performance from pit out to checkered flag in a 24 mins DE session.
Was I faster with PCCBs? Not necessarily as I “re-learned” my brake pedal application and adjusted my driving style to account for the difference in braking response and performance. I will say this though, the PCCBs were more confidence inspiring out the box but were simply cost prohibitive and failed the cost/benefit analysis.
$25363.03 parts cost from Suncoast for all four corners + 9.25% California sales tax + shipping + labor to install
25363.03 * 1.0925 = $27709.11 + UPS 3 day select delivery @ $319.49 = $28,028.60
or you can buy an entire Honda Accord EX Hybrid for $27,620 MSRP.
it's $30,000 to do a GT3 PCCB brake job on all four corners.
Local Performance shop bills 1 hour per wheel = 4 hours labor for the pad/rotor swap - 4 hours labor
1 hour for Centerlock wheels to follow Porsche's documented procedure 1 hour labor
1 hour labor to flush the brakes + fluid cost = 1 hour labor
6 hours billed at $185.00/hour at a local competent performance shop = $1,110.00 labor cost to swap the PCCB's
28,028.60 parts/shipping/tax + $1,100 = $29136.6 + brake fluid per-liter cost.
4 PCCB's pads + rotors + hardware + shipping + brake fluid flush = $29,136.60.
Porsche dealer would be worse on the labor costs - way way worse.
03-25-2019, 05:24 PM
