crayon991

I'll be taking delivery of me new 991.2 GT3 soon-- and looking at basic mods for regular track abuse... The first being brakes (i spec'd oem irons which i want to pack away from day 1). At the very least i was simply considering AP J hooks (which i have used on another car and very happy).. however i am also considering the essex ap radi-CAL setup or possibly the cup brakes.

It seems the radi-CAL setup weighs within 1.5lbs of the oem pccb's whch sounds impressive-- however the AP weight savings comes from roughly 50:50 calipers + discs, whereas with oem pccb's most of the weight advantage (all of it) is from discs alone. I am not considering pccb's just using them as a yardstick looking at weight.

Does anyone know what the cup brake setup weighs?

I am thinking of pairing lighter brakes with BBS FI-R's

JRitt@essex

First, thanks for considering our Essex/AP Racing brake components! In all honesty, you'd be very hard pressed to tell the difference between the unsprung weight savings in the discs alone vs. in the calipers + discs. If you were a pro driver and your car was a 1,400 lbs. Lotus Seven with 130 HP, then you may be more sensitive to such a difference. In a 500 HP, 3100 lb. car, you aren't going to feel the difference in weight between the discs vs. the entire unsprung corner. The mass does all add up though, which is why the 30+ lbs. weight savings of our Radi-CAL brake kit is a very nice addition when combined with lightweight wheels. Our full kit will also allow you to preserve your stock calipers prior to them being BBQ'd on track!

I think the one thing many of our customers value most about our product is the service and support they receive as part of the package. If you plan to track your car frequently, which it sounds like you do, you aren't going to find a better-supported brake product than our Radi-CAL setup or 2-piece discs. We have a full-time staff of 23 people, have been in business since 1982, long-standing relationships with our suppliers, a big warehouse in NC full of spare parts, and a reputation for jumping through hoops to support our customers. Brakes aren't something that you simply install and forget about, like a racing seat for example. You're constantly burning through them, needing spares, may have questions on pad choice, etc. That's an area where we shine, and where many of our competitors fall on their face. I can't imagine you're going to have the service and spares support with Cup Brakes that you will with our system. With a track day looming, all you'll need to do with our product is make one five minute phone call to us (or one of our resellers) to get the correct fluid, pads, iron discs, hardware, etc. that you need for your car. With other setups, you frequently have to hunt and scour for information and pricing, and when you find it, you typically have to wait quite a while to actually get your hands on anything. It's a time-consuming hassle, and potentially creates downtime for your car, missed track days, etc. People highly underestimate that factor.

Hopefully some of our pad, disc, and brake kit customers will chime in here with some comments on this aspect of our product experience. Our product support structure saves our customers a lot of time, headaches, and money. We offer proper answers and solutions almost immediately, which is tough to find in the brake business. Thanks again for your consideration, and always feel free to contact us with questions or concerns!

orthojoe

Well, you chose the right company to go with, that's for sure. I can't say enough good things about Essex, Jeff, his staff, and their distributors like clark at apex.

If you track occasionally, the AP rotors alone should be good enough and will last a very long time

If you track a lot, get the AP calipers. They will save you from the grief of laborious pad changes and cracked ceramic pucks.

crayon991

thanks for the info.

If anyone knows what the cup brake setup weighs, or has views on the cup brake performance, it would be good to know too

Mech33

brownan

Frankly I'd save a pile of money and just replace the OEM rotors with something (AP, etc) and leave the calipers. Change pads (I like Pagid but there are plenty of others) and the fluid (SRF) and let it ride. There should be more than ample braking capability.

Palting

Thinking of doing exactly this. Start with just the rotors first, then maybe calipers later. Found the correct GiroDisc rotors to go with the stock steel calipers, but cannot seem to find the correct J hook AP rotors to go with the stock calipers. May have to give the distributors a call when I'm ready to switch.

crayon991

The BBS FI-R wheel will save about 3-3.5kg per corner, the Essex brakes will save that again (actually more) meaning I am looking around ~ 15lbs weight savings per corner. Previous experience tells me that will pay dividends (when chasing tenths) around a track. Down here in Australia we pay a huge premium for these cars (at least 50% more than you pay in the States, after FX conversion) suffice to say the AP/Essex package adds about 5% to the cost of the car... If they yield a performance benefit, more robust and easier to change pads - to me its a no brainer.

If I was doing casual track days alone I would likely just swap in AP rotors.

Also looking at lithium battery and lightweight exhaust—however that’s where I will stop with this car.

I was interested in what the cup brakes weigh hence this post (cup brakes might also open up some interesting wheel and tyre choices later too)

JRitt@essex

Please note that the decision to go with the AP Racing calipers must be made at the beginning of the process. You can't buy our 2-piece discs in the OEM size and then add the calipers later. The OEM discs, and our direct replacements for them, are very tall in radial depth (height of the disc face)...about 62mm tall vs. the discs in our complete brake system which are 54mm tall. That means our discs that fit with the OEM calipers and the discs in our complete brake kit are completely different and not interchangeable. If you go with the OEM replacement discs first, you would have to sell them on the used market and purchase a complete AP Racing kit.

It's therefore prudent to think the situation through before taking any action.

Our Essex Designed 2-piece AP Racing J Hook Discs can be found in the links below, and are available directly through us or through our reseller network:

Iron replacements for GT3/GT3RS/GT2RS in OEM size (380/380mm):
Front= https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...1gt3iron-front
Rear= https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...91gt3iron-rear

PCCB replacements for GT3/GT3RS/GT2RS in OEM sizes (410/390mm):
Front= https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...1gt3PCCB-front
Rear= https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...pccb-rear39032

If you search your year/make/model on our website, you'll come up with all of the parts we offer for your car. Below are the search results for an iron equipped 997.1 or 997.2 GT3/GT3RS:
https://www.essexparts.com/my-vehicl...x34,%20R380x30)

Palting

Thanks for the reply, excellent info. I guess I do have to think this through a bit more.

JRitt@essex

The complete kit vs. discs alone debate comes down to a handful of key points:

Convenience- It literally takes about two minutes to swap the pads in the AP Racing calipers once you have the wheels off. You turn two hex head bolts, pop out the old pads, wipe the sides of the pistons off, push them back in, and drop in the new pads. With the OEM calipers you have to disconnect the brake lines, take the caliper off, push the pistons back, insert new pads, reinstall the caliper, reconnect the brake lines, and bleed the brakes. Unless you have aftermarket caliper studs, you're also re-torquing a bolt into a soft aluminum spindle. The AP Racing calipers only need to come off with disc replacements (which won't be frequent), and the AP calipers sit on ARP studs that will last forever.

Durability- The AP Racing calipers have ventilated stainless pistons vs. the OEM ceramic-tipped ones. The stainless pistons will essentially hold up forever, regardless of what you do with the car or how hard you thrash it. The AP calipers have high temperature seals designed for racetrack abuse, and they take an almost unbelievable amount of punishment before they need to be replaced. The OEM pistons will crack, dust boots will melt, pistons seals will degrade, leak, and need rebuilt, etc. The OEM painted caliper finish will degrade over time, change color, get messed up by brake fluid, etc. The AP calipers will essentially look the same regardless of what you do with them. You still don't want to get brake fluid on the painted logos though.

Knockback- The AP calipers have anti-knockback springs behind the pistons which help counteract pad knockback, and eliminate the need to tap the brakes before a turn after exiting a series of turns.

Unsprung weight reduction- The AP Racing calipers are far lighter than the OEM units, and our system shaves over 30 lbs. off of the OEM iron setup.

Preservation of OEM calipers- If you replace the OEM calipers, they'll be fresh when you sell your car and move on to the next one. You won't have to explain to the buyer why they are burnt orange, have fried dust boots, leaking fluid, etc. You also won't need to rebuild them, replace the pistons, etc. before trying to sell. People forget that this is going to cost a chunk of money. You're looking at a couple thousand dollars in parts and labor to either purchase or refresh OEM calipers.

Resale value / ROI- On the used market our complete systems tend to sell for 60-70% of their original MSRP. Much of that value is tied up in the Radi-CAL calipers. If you buy our system for $11k, you can expect to get $7k back for them when you pull them off the car and sell them. You also won't have any cash outlay if your OEM calipers are fresh in a box in your garage (vs. rebuilding them if you've been beating them). So instead of spending $2k+ to refresh or buy OEM parts when you sell your car, you have $7k or more coming to you. During your ownership of the brake kit you also get to enjoy all of its performance benefits, slower usage of discs and pads because it runs cooler, unsprung weight benefits, etc. The 2-piece discs don't tend to hold quite as much value as the full caliper kit, because they are more of a consumable than the calipers.

If you're doing more than the occasional casual track day, the complete brake kit starts to make a whole lot of sense when you run the numbers. You have to think long-term when doing the math. Most of our customers find that over the course of a couple years of track use, our complete kits pay for themselves in consumable usage alone. That doesn't even take into account the ROI when they're sold on the used market. Nobody wants to dump a bunch of money into a car right before they hand over the keys to the next owner. It's much nicer to collect a check for the car and a $7k bonus check for the brakes!

chillindrdude

if the process is the same as the GT4, i don't disconnect the brake line for pad changes. i do unbolt the bracket/carrier (from the spindle) that holds the brake line.

but i agree, it is a pain, and danger of cross threading is always at the front of mind.

PorscheRuminator

If you are replacing rotors and pads alone (like me), does anyone have a direct comparison in terms of longevity, quality etc of AP vs Girodisc? Giro disc is somewhat less expensive and Clark pointed out that that a potential unknown re APs is that if a steel tarriff really does happen imported rotor rings may be much more than US rotors, but that is a guess. I'm interested in as much of an apples to apples comparison as possible re quality and longevity. I was pretty sold on AP until price and the tariff issue came up. Thoughts from people who have used both re: quality and longevity preferably with the same or similar pads? I'm a 15 track-day/year guy...

Mr. Turtles

Hi Palting, I ordered the AP Racing from Clarke at Apex for my 3.2. The price is slightly higher than Girodisc when you order the first time (i.e. with the hats) but then future replacement rings are the same price for AP and Giro. Tell him your calling from Reenlist to get a discount. I've been told by the guys I track with that they like the AP and have gotten great life out of them with the Frodo DS1.11 so I'm going that way (you may have to try all the pads to see what you like as they all have different characteristics). I also had PFC 11 and didn't see a big difference. Pretty sure you can't go wrong with either rotors though.

Happy track days!

Palting

Hi Mr. Turtles! It was nice meeting you and seeing your red beast at Watkins! Clark from Apex did email me, but Essex is making me think twice with their suggestion that it's better to get the whole racing AP kit from the get go rather than just rotors.