GT3 brake options for regular track abuse
10-02-2018, 02:57 PM
#31
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As most of you know it's very rare that we post anything on the forums and not being a sponsor here we don't feel it's necessary to step on other's toes however I wanted to quickly address this comment just to clear up any potential mis-information regarding the Girodisc product. Just over four years ago we were providing Exotics Racing with rotors for most of their cars, at the time we had not yet developed our own casting for diameters larger than 355mm and the majority of the vehicles there used rotors in the 380mm to 400mm range. For these cars we were forced to use a casting from another rotor supplier that was less than ideal, it utilized just 32 curved vanes (our current offering utilizes 72), had a rather large air gap and used a relatively basic G3000 metallurgy, this was still a quality casting poured here in America but the odds were certainly stacked against it as the equivalent AP rotor had either 72 or 84 vanes, a smaller air gap and a more complex alloyed metallurgy. Right around this time their fleet manager who we had worked with for several years was let go, the gentleman who came in was British and immediately claimed that the "Americans have no idea how to make brake rotors" and that everything needed to be changed over to AP.
During the time of the previous fleet manager I had personally visited Exotics and told them that they were discarding discs way too early in their life with just minor heat checking on the surface. I have visited several times since and know that they changed their protocol significantly with the new fleet manager and are willing to leave discs on far longer than they once used to. I'll be the first to admit that the large diameter AP rotors were better than what we had at the time but three to four times the life is a bit farfetched when a major contributor to the increase in life was because they were simply allowing the rotors to get severely heat checked before removing them, something that was never allowed under the previous fleet manager.
Regardless, that is all water under the bridge at this point as the rotors that we provided four years ago are a far cry from what we produce today. Over the course of the last four years we have spent a massive amount of time on product development while working with three different foundries here in the states and one in the UK that actually produces the rotors for AP. Ultimately we were able to develop a superior casting stateside which helps keep lead times in check and allow us to produce a 100% US made product, something we've always been proud of.
Our latest castings are poured by the largest casting house in North America, whose customers include several OEM’s from the US, Japan and Europe. We have been working with them for several years now in a quest to develop the longest lasting brake rotor castings in the world. The tooling, metallurgy and casting process is all proprietary to Girodisc. From there the raw castings are machined from start to finish at our facility here in Bellingham, Washington giving us total control over the quality.
I have no intention of turning this into a pissing match because I know Jeff well enough to know that he didn't mean any harm by his post and was simply relaying information that he received in the past. I do appreciate him mentioning that he was pretty sure we had made significant changes since those days but I just wanted to set the record straight. Girodisc and Essex have always had a very cordial and respectful relationship and that will not change anytime soon, we still even buy a few sets of pads from them every year.
We monitor these forums closely and I always appreciate the knowledge Jeff brings this forum in terms of technical expertise on brake systems as he is one guys in the industry whose opinion I generally respect. In particular he and I share the same opinions and experiences regarding the shortcomings of PCCB rotors for track use as we deal with the issue on a daily basis. Since we’re not a sponsor on here we don’t post at all so it’s nice to see Jeff presenting the same realities that we find regarding PCCB’s. It’s just unfortunate that the internet is riddled with such poor information on brake systems from both end users and 'manufacturers'.
On a more important note I hope you guys and your families all stay safe these next couple days with the hurricane bearing down on the area, also be sure to tell Daniel I said hello.
All the best,
Mike Owen
Girodisc Racing Brakes
During the time of the previous fleet manager I had personally visited Exotics and told them that they were discarding discs way too early in their life with just minor heat checking on the surface. I have visited several times since and know that they changed their protocol significantly with the new fleet manager and are willing to leave discs on far longer than they once used to. I'll be the first to admit that the large diameter AP rotors were better than what we had at the time but three to four times the life is a bit farfetched when a major contributor to the increase in life was because they were simply allowing the rotors to get severely heat checked before removing them, something that was never allowed under the previous fleet manager.
Regardless, that is all water under the bridge at this point as the rotors that we provided four years ago are a far cry from what we produce today. Over the course of the last four years we have spent a massive amount of time on product development while working with three different foundries here in the states and one in the UK that actually produces the rotors for AP. Ultimately we were able to develop a superior casting stateside which helps keep lead times in check and allow us to produce a 100% US made product, something we've always been proud of.
Our latest castings are poured by the largest casting house in North America, whose customers include several OEM’s from the US, Japan and Europe. We have been working with them for several years now in a quest to develop the longest lasting brake rotor castings in the world. The tooling, metallurgy and casting process is all proprietary to Girodisc. From there the raw castings are machined from start to finish at our facility here in Bellingham, Washington giving us total control over the quality.
I have no intention of turning this into a pissing match because I know Jeff well enough to know that he didn't mean any harm by his post and was simply relaying information that he received in the past. I do appreciate him mentioning that he was pretty sure we had made significant changes since those days but I just wanted to set the record straight. Girodisc and Essex have always had a very cordial and respectful relationship and that will not change anytime soon, we still even buy a few sets of pads from them every year.
We monitor these forums closely and I always appreciate the knowledge Jeff brings this forum in terms of technical expertise on brake systems as he is one guys in the industry whose opinion I generally respect. In particular he and I share the same opinions and experiences regarding the shortcomings of PCCB rotors for track use as we deal with the issue on a daily basis. Since we’re not a sponsor on here we don’t post at all so it’s nice to see Jeff presenting the same realities that we find regarding PCCB’s. It’s just unfortunate that the internet is riddled with such poor information on brake systems from both end users and 'manufacturers'.
On a more important note I hope you guys and your families all stay safe these next couple days with the hurricane bearing down on the area, also be sure to tell Daniel I said hello.
All the best,
Mike Owen
Girodisc Racing Brakes
__________________
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services
Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs
Ferodo Racing Brake Pads
Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030
jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services
Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs
Ferodo Racing Brake Pads
Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030
jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
10-04-2018, 10:58 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
I run these on my 997.2... They are fantastic product. I have run 2 sets of the v2 dimpled PFC rotors and have now moved to these slotted v3 units. Cope amazingly well with heat, no warping or vibration and last much, much longer than the OEM discs. I am running my current set with RE10 pads and the stopping power is immense. Look forward to seeing how the go for longevity with the endure pads...
10-04-2018, 03:40 PM
#34
Nordschleife Master
This thread is confusing the heck out of me. So many choices. Surface Transforms, PFC, Girodisc, AP Racing..........Then there's the pads.......... They ALL look and sound good, with excellent reviews!
I'm actually relatively happy with the stock system. For now. Maybe except for paranoia about the teeny-tiny cracks with the OEM cross drilled rotors. May change my mind when I go with Hoosiers and need better brakes to complement the better tires. Then I'll read through this whole thread again.
I'm actually relatively happy with the stock system. For now. Maybe except for paranoia about the teeny-tiny cracks with the OEM cross drilled rotors. May change my mind when I go with Hoosiers and need better brakes to complement the better tires. Then I'll read through this whole thread again.
10-04-2018, 03:43 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
With Hoosiers you can get a soft pedal but OEM steel is pretty good.
FWIW I got about 16-20 days on my front rotors with RE-10 pads.
ST rotors will go a little longer then that before refurbishing.
Rears all last forever.
FWIW I got about 16-20 days on my front rotors with RE-10 pads.
ST rotors will go a little longer then that before refurbishing.
Rears all last forever.
10-04-2018, 08:46 PM
#36
This thread is confusing the heck out of me. So many choices. Surface Transforms, PFC, Girodisc, AP Racing..........Then there's the pads.......... They ALL look and sound good, with excellent reviews!
I'm actually relatively happy with the stock system. For now. Maybe except for paranoia about the teeny-tiny cracks with the OEM cross drilled rotors. May change my mind when I go with Hoosiers and need better brakes to complement the better tires. Then I'll read through this whole thread again.
I'm actually relatively happy with the stock system. For now. Maybe except for paranoia about the teeny-tiny cracks with the OEM cross drilled rotors. May change my mind when I go with Hoosiers and need better brakes to complement the better tires. Then I'll read through this whole thread again.
10-05-2018, 05:34 PM
#37
Former Vendor
This thread is confusing the heck out of me. So many choices. Surface Transforms, PFC, Girodisc, AP Racing..........Then there's the pads.......... They ALL look and sound good, with excellent reviews!
I'm actually relatively happy with the stock system. For now. Maybe except for paranoia about the teeny-tiny cracks with the OEM cross drilled rotors. May change my mind when I go with Hoosiers and need better brakes to complement the better tires. Then I'll read through this whole thread again.
I'm actually relatively happy with the stock system. For now. Maybe except for paranoia about the teeny-tiny cracks with the OEM cross drilled rotors. May change my mind when I go with Hoosiers and need better brakes to complement the better tires. Then I'll read through this whole thread again.
10-05-2018, 07:26 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
10-21-2019, 09:33 PM
#39
Final answer....
Ok, I’ve read and read, I’m either looking at girodisc or AP j-hooks, need new front rotors, iron, to replace to stock rotors, and hats (?). Not sure if I said that right, anyway, new front set your. Have pads already.
so, any final thoughts between the 2, I understand AP may cost a bit more. Also, should I upgrade braided metal brake lines while I’m in there? Need any helpful replies in the next 15 hours, have to do this quick before VIR. Thanks all. Peace.
so, any final thoughts between the 2, I understand AP may cost a bit more. Also, should I upgrade braided metal brake lines while I’m in there? Need any helpful replies in the next 15 hours, have to do this quick before VIR. Thanks all. Peace.
10-21-2019, 10:12 PM
#40
No need to change the OEM system at all other than pads and fluids initially and rotors when lipped and cracked (when the cracks that nucleate from the cross drilled holes reach about 4mm)
If you are going to use aggressive high coefficient of friction brake pads, you will go through brake rotors quickly irrespective of the brand and whether they are cross drilled or have j hooks etc.
With steelies the difference in specific heat capacity between a top brand and lesser brand is small. So it’s actually best to go with similar mass and top hats at the best price.
Probably the most important decision is picking the right pads for your intended use, circuit or activity (sprints, endurance, climbs, autox, HPDE). In all of these it’s about initial bite and modulation from there.
You certainly want a pad that delivers good decisive, repeatable and consistent initial bite followed by good feel from there, the former important for the threshold component of braking the latter for the trail component.
Good tires (it’s the tires that deliver stopping distance not the brakes), relevant pads and high T low compressibility brake fluids are the recipe.
If you look after the OEM callipers you’ll find they are excellent.
If you are going to use aggressive high coefficient of friction brake pads, you will go through brake rotors quickly irrespective of the brand and whether they are cross drilled or have j hooks etc.
With steelies the difference in specific heat capacity between a top brand and lesser brand is small. So it’s actually best to go with similar mass and top hats at the best price.
Probably the most important decision is picking the right pads for your intended use, circuit or activity (sprints, endurance, climbs, autox, HPDE). In all of these it’s about initial bite and modulation from there.
You certainly want a pad that delivers good decisive, repeatable and consistent initial bite followed by good feel from there, the former important for the threshold component of braking the latter for the trail component.
Good tires (it’s the tires that deliver stopping distance not the brakes), relevant pads and high T low compressibility brake fluids are the recipe.
If you look after the OEM callipers you’ll find they are excellent.
10-21-2019, 11:07 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
10-21-2019, 11:09 PM
#42
Thanks groundhog. I have only stock pads and rotors up to now, 7000 miles on a 2018 991.2 gt3, I’m in blue/white. Only 10 hpde tracks days and the front rotors today failed inspection for next week at VIR. Cracks are developing, emanating from the cross drill holes. Tech lead said maybe he’d let them go for 2 days at NJMP, but not 3 at VIR, which (apparently) can be hard on brakes. I’m not going to debate it, not worth it for lots of reasons, especially safety.
So while I’m sure stock equipment is solid, I’d expect more than 10 days out of the rotors. Pads are probably just at 50% and could go another session, but I’ll change those too with the wheels off. Anyway, I seem to have exceeded the stock rotor capabilities, so plan to upgrade to either AP j-hooks or GiroDiscs, just not sure which. Was hoping some folks here could weigh in, I’ll speak to Clark at Apex in the morning.
Also, while I have the front wheels off, should I upgrade the brake lines to metal braided too?
Tires are mpsc2, endless brake fluid changed in May. Tires can make it through VIR but then will probably swap them out too next spring when I take the snows off.
Anyone else have any advice?
So while I’m sure stock equipment is solid, I’d expect more than 10 days out of the rotors. Pads are probably just at 50% and could go another session, but I’ll change those too with the wheels off. Anyway, I seem to have exceeded the stock rotor capabilities, so plan to upgrade to either AP j-hooks or GiroDiscs, just not sure which. Was hoping some folks here could weigh in, I’ll speak to Clark at Apex in the morning.
Also, while I have the front wheels off, should I upgrade the brake lines to metal braided too?
Tires are mpsc2, endless brake fluid changed in May. Tires can make it through VIR but then will probably swap them out too next spring when I take the snows off.
Anyone else have any advice?
10-22-2019, 12:13 AM
#43
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
10-22-2019, 12:35 AM
#44
Thanks groundhog. I have only stock pads and rotors up to now, 7000 miles on a 2018 991.2 gt3, I’m in blue/white. Only 10 hpde tracks days and the front rotors today failed inspection for next week at VIR. Cracks are developing, emanating from the cross drill holes. Tech lead said maybe he’d let them go for 2 days at NJMP, but not 3 at VIR, which (apparently) can be hard on brakes. I’m not going to debate it, not worth it for lots of reasons, especially safety.
So while I’m sure stock equipment is solid, I’d expect more than 10 days out of the rotors. Pads are probably just at 50% and could go another session, but I’ll change those too with the wheels off. Anyway, I seem to have exceeded the stock rotor capabilities, so plan to upgrade to either AP j-hooks or GiroDiscs, just not sure which. Was hoping some folks here could weigh in, I’ll speak to Clark at Apex in the morning.
Also, while I have the front wheels off, should I upgrade the brake lines to metal braided too?
Tires are mpsc2, endless brake fluid changed in May. Tires can make it through VIR but then will probably swap them out too next spring when I take the snows off.
Anyone else have any advice?
So while I’m sure stock equipment is solid, I’d expect more than 10 days out of the rotors. Pads are probably just at 50% and could go another session, but I’ll change those too with the wheels off. Anyway, I seem to have exceeded the stock rotor capabilities, so plan to upgrade to either AP j-hooks or GiroDiscs, just not sure which. Was hoping some folks here could weigh in, I’ll speak to Clark at Apex in the morning.
Also, while I have the front wheels off, should I upgrade the brake lines to metal braided too?
Tires are mpsc2, endless brake fluid changed in May. Tires can make it through VIR but then will probably swap them out too next spring when I take the snows off.
Anyone else have any advice?
. Basically, when the cracks normal to the cross drilled holes are around 4mm in length its time to get rid of them, you will also find the rotors are heavily lipped e.g. if you run your finger to the outter edge of the rotor you will feel a lip right at the edge. With brakes pads for track use, when the brake pads have the same thickness as the metal backing plates its time for them to go as well.
brake fluid - all the major brands make good race fluids e.g. Castrol SRF, Motul RBF600/660, AP racing various - the most important thing to do is to bleed regularly (before and after a track day for example - and as neccessary) - also with race fluids, as a minimum change once a year.
brake pads - I'd suggest something like Pagid RSL29, these are an endurance type pad with good bite and modulation.
With steel rotors you won't go wrong with OEM, Giro or AP.
10-22-2019, 01:25 AM
#45
Wmond - if in doubt throw it out . Basically, when the cracks normal to the cross drilled holes are around 4mm in length its time to get rid of them, you will also find the rotors are heavily lipped e.g. if you run your finger to the outter edge of the rotor you will feel a lip right at the edge.
With brakes pads for track use, when the brake pads have the same thickness as the metal backing plates its time for them to go as well.
brake fluid - all the major brands make good race fluids e.g. Castrol SRF, Motul RBF600/660, AP racing various - the most important thing to do is to bleed regularly (before and after a track day for example - and as neccessary) - also with race fluids, as a minimum change once a year.
brake pads - I'd suggest something like Pagid RSL29, these are an endurance type pad with good bite and modulation.
With steel rotors you won't go wrong with OEM, Giro or AP.
. Basically, when the cracks normal to the cross drilled holes are around 4mm in length its time to get rid of them, you will also find the rotors are heavily lipped e.g. if you run your finger to the outter edge of the rotor you will feel a lip right at the edge.With brakes pads for track use, when the brake pads have the same thickness as the metal backing plates its time for them to go as well.
brake fluid - all the major brands make good race fluids e.g. Castrol SRF, Motul RBF600/660, AP racing various - the most important thing to do is to bleed regularly (before and after a track day for example - and as neccessary) - also with race fluids, as a minimum change once a year.
brake pads - I'd suggest something like Pagid RSL29, these are an endurance type pad with good bite and modulation.
With steel rotors you won't go wrong with OEM, Giro or AP.