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If you are replacing rotors and pads alone (like me), does anyone have a direct comparison in terms of longevity, quality etc of AP vs Girodisc? Giro disc is somewhat less expensive and Clark pointed out that that a potential unknown re APs is that if a steel tarriff really does happen imported rotor rings may be much more than US rotors, but that is a guess. I'm interested in as much of an apples to apples comparison as possible re quality and longevity. I was pretty sold on AP until price and the tariff issue came up. Thoughts from people who have used both re: quality and longevity preferably with the same or similar pads? I'm a 15 track-day/year guy...
I don't think it is likely you will find someone who can provide a direct comparison, folks tend to commit to one brand/solution so you will likely hear good things about both. AP Racing and Essex have an impeccable reputation and as stated by the fine folks at Essex their products are in demand on the used parts market at a substantial percentage of the new value which is a pretty big testament.
If you are replacing rotors and pads alone (like me), does anyone have a direct comparison in terms of longevity, quality etc of AP vs Girodisc? Giro disc is somewhat less expensive and Clark pointed out that that a potential unknown re APs is that if a steel tarriff really does happen imported rotor rings may be much more than US rotors, but that is a guess. I'm interested in as much of an apples to apples comparison as possible re quality and longevity. I was pretty sold on AP until price and the tariff issue came up. Thoughts from people who have used both re: quality and longevity preferably with the same or similar pads? I'm a 15 track-day/year guy...
We don't have any indication from AP Racing that the prices on their disc rings are going to change this year. That is no different than any other year during the 30 years we've been doing business with them.
The only direct comparison we have between Giro and AP Racing is with a customer called Exotics Racing. They used Girodisc for a while, but after testing AP Racing on a few of their cars, they switched to AP Racing on their entire fleet of 50+ cars. I worked very closely with their fleet manager at the time, and he shared brake mileage logs with us. They were seeing three to four times as many track miles out of the AP Racing discs as they were out of the Girodiscs on the same car, same conditions, etc. This was across several cars over the period of several months. In their defense, I believe Girodisc may have changed their disc supplier/manufacturer since then, but that's the data we have on record.
The AP Racing discs are generally known at all levels of racing as some of the most durable, if not the most durable and highest quality option available. Here's an example of one of our 991 GT3 customers getting the equivalent of 70 days out of a disc set on his discs! https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...g-j-hook-discs
Finally, check out the graphic below for where AP Racing accomplishments in 2017, which puts them in elite territory. AP Racing brakes aren't the least expensive on the market, but a few bucks extra buys you the best and everything that comes with it.
__________________
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs Ferodo Racing Brake Pads Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030 jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
good to see you on here JRitt. I remember you from the Z forums and when you worked at that other place and gave me the .eps file for their logo so I could refinish the calipers correctly!
Mike
good to see you on here JRitt. I remember you from the Z forums and when you worked at that other place and gave me the .eps file for their logo so I could refinish the calipers correctly!
Mike
Thanks! That feels like a million and three years ago! One of the coolest things about the automotive enthusiast community is that it tends to be a lifelong pursuit. In some cases I find myself helping the same folks with their third or fourth car in the past 15 years. It's always fun reconnecting with people and hearing about their automotive journey...the ones that were loved, lost, and sold (cars, not women).
I'll be taking delivery of me new 991.2 GT3 soon-- and looking at basic mods for regular track abuse... The first being brakes (i spec'd oem irons which i want to pack away from day 1). At the very least i was simply considering AP J hooks (which i have used on another car and very happy).. however i am also considering the essex ap radi-CAL setup or possibly the cup brakes.
It seems the radi-CAL setup weighs within 1.5lbs of the oem pccb's whch sounds impressive-- however the AP weight savings comes from roughly 50:50 calipers + discs, whereas with oem pccb's most of the weight advantage (all of it) is from discs alone. I am not considering pccb's just using them as a yardstick looking at weight.
Does anyone know what the cup brake setup weighs?
I am thinking of pairing lighter brakes with BBS FI-R's
Consider converting from stock iron to CCB is one of the options.
Rotors are made to the same exact offset and dimension for a direct bolt on (no mod.) installation.
Same conversion is exclusively offered by RaciingBrake to those heavily tracked communities such as GTR, Mustang GT350, Dodge Hellcat, and Camaro Z28 & ZL1 (G6) with very satisfactory result - More consistent braking performance and lower maintenance/replacemetn cost over conventional iron.
Originally Posted by td195f
Have you tried Racing Brakes Sintered Metal Pads? I've been running the Streetable Track Pad (XC-40 Compound) because I occasionally take my Z/28 out on the street. Mostly a track toy. I'm very happy with the pads. They have built a layer of metal on the rotor filling in most of the holes and have smoothed out the surface. Brake function is excellent. I run most of my track days on a high speed track (Watkins Glen) and pad wear is good. I will be swapping to the Track/Race Compound (XC-41) before my next track day to try. Pads are expensive but it appears rotors may never need replacement. I've got over 4000 miles on my original rotors with the majority of the miles on track.
Same conversion is exclusively offered by RaciingBrake to those heavily tracked communities such as GTR, Mustang GT350, Dodge Hellcat, and Camaro Z28 & ZL1 (G6) with very satisfactory result - More consistent braking performance and lower maintenance/replacemetn cost over conventional iron.
Thanks. Have you sold many sets to 991.2 track customers? I was quite keen to stick with iron (after doing quite a bit of research) but perhaps you can convince me otherwise.
The only direct comparison we have between Giro and AP Racing is with a customer called Exotics Racing. They used Girodisc for a while, but after testing AP Racing on a few of their cars, they switched to AP Racing on their entire fleet of 50+ cars. I worked very closely with their fleet manager at the time, and he shared brake mileage logs with us. They were seeing three to four times as many track miles out of the AP Racing discs as they were out of the Girodiscs on the same car, same conditions, etc. This was across several cars over the period of several months. In their defense, I believe Girodisc may have changed their disc supplier/manufacturer since then, but that's the data we have on record.
As most of you know it's very rare that we post anything on the forums and not being a sponsor here we don't feel it's necessary to step on other's toes however I wanted to quickly address this comment just to clear up any potential mis-information regarding the Girodisc product. Just over four years ago we were providing Exotics Racing with rotors for most of their cars, at the time we had not yet developed our own casting for diameters larger than 355mm and the majority of the vehicles there used rotors in the 380mm to 400mm range. For these cars we were forced to use a casting from another rotor supplier that was less than ideal, it utilized just 32 curved vanes (our current offering utilizes 72), had a rather large air gap and used a relatively basic G3000 metallurgy, this was still a quality casting poured here in America but the odds were certainly stacked against it as the equivalent AP rotor had either 72 or 84 vanes, a smaller air gap and a more complex alloyed metallurgy. Right around this time their fleet manager who we had worked with for several years was let go, the gentleman who came in was British and immediately claimed that the "Americans have no idea how to make brake rotors" and that everything needed to be changed over to AP.
During the time of the previous fleet manager I had personally visited Exotics and told them that they were discarding discs way too early in their life with just minor heat checking on the surface. I have visited several times since and know that they changed their protocol significantly with the new fleet manager and are willing to leave discs on far longer than they once used to. I'll be the first to admit that the large diameter AP rotors were better than what we had at the time but three to four times the life is a bit farfetched when a major contributor to the increase in life was because they were simply allowing the rotors to get severely heat checked before removing them, something that was never allowed under the previous fleet manager.
Regardless, that is all water under the bridge at this point as the rotors that we provided four years ago are a far cry from what we produce today. Over the course of the last four years we have spent a massive amount of time on product development while working with three different foundries here in the states and one in the UK that actually produces the rotors for AP. Ultimately we were able to develop a superior casting stateside which helps keep lead times in check and allow us to produce a 100% US made product, something we've always been proud of.
Our latest castings are poured by the largest casting house in North America, whose customers include several OEM’s from the US, Japan and Europe. We have been working with them for several years now in a quest to develop the longest lasting brake rotor castings in the world. The tooling, metallurgy and casting process is all proprietary to Girodisc. From there the raw castings are machined from start to finish at our facility here in Bellingham, Washington giving us total control over the quality.
I have no intention of turning this into a pissing match because I know Jeff well enough to know that he didn't mean any harm by his post and was simply relaying information that he received in the past. I do appreciate him mentioning that he was pretty sure we had made significant changes since those days but I just wanted to set the record straight. Girodisc and Essex have always had a very cordial and respectful relationship and that will not change anytime soon, we still even buy a few sets of pads from them every year.
We monitor these forums closely and I always appreciate the knowledge Jeff brings this forum in terms of technical expertise on brake systems as he is one guys in the industry whose opinion I generally respect. In particular he and I share the same opinions and experiences regarding the shortcomings of PCCB rotors for track use as we deal with the issue on a daily basis. Since we’re not a sponsor on here we don’t post at all so it’s nice to see Jeff presenting the same realities that we find regarding PCCB’s. It’s just unfortunate that the internet is riddled with such poor information on brake systems from both end users and 'manufacturers'.
On a more important note I hope you guys and your families all stay safe these next couple days with the hurricane bearing down on the area, also be sure to tell Daniel I said hello.
Thanks. Have you sold many sets to 991.2 track customers? I was quite keen to stick with iron (after doing quite a bit of research) but perhaps you can convince me otherwise.
Not a lot.
Your research should go beyond this forum; visit Corvette ZR1 or Camaro Z28 forums where cars are equipped with CCM brake by default, and hear what they said about the performance, replacement etc. compare to conventional iron and how many are switching to iron.
Learn and accept the merits (as well as shortcoming) of the new CCB technology, rather than believing those posts by some forum sponsors who offer only iron brakes.
We offer both iron and CCB and we only present subject data and fact, and leave consumers as you to make your own decision.
Just sold the first set of CCM rotors to a Jeep G-C Trackhawk owner* converting from iron. The rotor is a monstrous 400x36mm.
The largest OE brake ever equipped in North America for Trackhawk (707HP) - Also is The Most Powerful SUV on earth.
As most of you know it's very rare that we post anything on the forums and not being a sponsor here we don't feel it's necessary to step on other's toes however I wanted to quickly address this comment just to clear up any potential mis-information regarding the Girodisc product. Just over four years ago we were providing Exotics Racing with rotors for most of their cars, at the time we had not yet developed our own casting for diameters larger than 355mm and the majority of the vehicles there used rotors in the 380mm to 400mm range. For these cars we were forced to use a casting from another rotor supplier that was less than ideal, it utilized just 32 curved vanes (our current offering utilizes 72), had a rather large air gap and used a relatively basic G3000 metallurgy, this was still a quality casting poured here in America but the odds were certainly stacked against it as the equivalent AP rotor had either 72 or 84 vanes, a smaller air gap and a more complex alloyed metallurgy. Right around this time their fleet manager who we had worked with for several years was let go, the gentleman who came in was British and immediately claimed that the "Americans have no idea how to make brake rotors" and that everything needed to be changed over to AP.
During the time of the previous fleet manager I had personally visited Exotics and told them that they were discarding discs way too early in their life with just minor heat checking on the surface. I have visited several times since and know that they changed their protocol significantly with the new fleet manager and are willing to leave discs on far longer than they once used to. I'll be the first to admit that the large diameter AP rotors were better than what we had at the time but three to four times the life is a bit farfetched when a major contributor to the increase in life was because they were simply allowing the rotors to get severely heat checked before removing them, something that was never allowed under the previous fleet manager.
Regardless, that is all water under the bridge at this point as the rotors that we provided four years ago are a far cry from what we produce today. Over the course of the last four years we have spent a massive amount of time on product development while working with three different foundries here in the states and one in the UK that actually produces the rotors for AP. Ultimately we were able to develop a superior casting stateside which helps keep lead times in check and allow us to produce a 100% US made product, something we've always been proud of.
Our latest castings are poured by the largest casting house in North America, whose customers include several OEM’s from the US, Japan and Europe. We have been working with them for several years now in a quest to develop the longest lasting brake rotor castings in the world. The tooling, metallurgy and casting process is all proprietary to Girodisc. From there the raw castings are machined from start to finish at our facility here in Bellingham, Washington giving us total control over the quality.
I have no intention of turning this into a pissing match because I know Jeff well enough to know that he didn't mean any harm by his post and was simply relaying information that he received in the past. I do appreciate him mentioning that he was pretty sure we had made significant changes since those days but I just wanted to set the record straight. Girodisc and Essex have always had a very cordial and respectful relationship and that will not change anytime soon, we still even buy a few sets of pads from them every year.
We monitor these forums closely and I always appreciate the knowledge Jeff brings this forum in terms of technical expertise on brake systems as he is one guys in the industry whose opinion I generally respect. In particular he and I share the same opinions and experiences regarding the shortcomings of PCCB rotors for track use as we deal with the issue on a daily basis. Since we’re not a sponsor on here we don’t post at all so it’s nice to see Jeff presenting the same realities that we find regarding PCCB’s. It’s just unfortunate that the internet is riddled with such poor information on brake systems from both end users and 'manufacturers'.
On a more important note I hope you guys and your families all stay safe these next couple days with the hurricane bearing down on the area, also be sure to tell Daniel I said hello.
All the best,
Mike Owen
Girodisc Racing Brakes
Nice post and interesting read, Mike. Thanks for taking the time to chime in!
I think it would be a huge mistake to go with anything other than the AP Radi-cal steel brake system. I've literally been beating the snot out of these brakes all season and they haven't missed a beat. I turned sub-2 minute laps at Watkins Glen consistently for over 45 minutes and they kept performing without issue...160+ mph down to 95 mph in 300 feet...over, and over, and over again.
I used to run Stoptech brakes and the AP system is on a different planet compared to the Stoptech's. I had to rebuild the Stoptech calipers at least once a season, sometimes more often.
Check out the previous threads by Essex that go over the specific characteristics of carbon ceramic rotors versus AP's steel rotors.
IMO, there's absolutely NO reason to go with ceramic rotors. I have other cars with CCB's and it's almost embarrassing how much better the AP system is compared to the CCB's.
I think it would be a huge mistake to go with anything other than the AP Radi-cal steel brake system. I've literally been beating the snot out of these brakes all season and they haven't missed a beat. I turned sub-2 minute laps at Watkins Glen consistently for over 45 minutes and they kept performing without issue...160+ mph down to 95 mph in 300 feet...over, and over, and over again.
I used to run Stoptech brakes and the AP system is on a different planet compared to the Stoptech's. I had to rebuild the Stoptech calipers at least once a season, sometimes more often.
Check out the previous threads by Essex that go over the specific characteristics of carbon ceramic rotors versus AP's steel rotors.
IMO, there's absolutely NO reason to go with ceramic rotors. I have other cars with CCB's and it's almost embarrassing how much better the AP system is compared to the CCB's.
Awesome! Great to hear Alec...Glad they are kicking some tail for you. Thank you very much for the kind words and vote of confidence!
Did someone say track abuse ?
I run ST rotors from Autoquest, plug & play and they have been pretty awesome so far without the PCCB cost. https://www.autoquestcars.com/custom-11
09-08-2018, 12:41 AM
