Possible additional run of GT3's?
03-01-2018, 07:03 PM
#76
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by subshooter
Yeah.....if I was running a business, I would make sure that I turned customers away at all costs because that is what high performing businesses do. I mean really.....what business actually wants to sell hundreds of $200k products? I wouldn't produce more products or raise the prices so that supply equals demand. I wouldn't want to satisfy my customers. Instead, I would just make a fake promise, a fake list, and then renege on the agreement. I would try to **** off as many buyers as possible so that they take their business to McLaren or Ferrari.
I still don't get Porsche's business model. American's should be running PAG. Why isn't Porsche bankrupt yet?!
I still don't get Porsche's business model. American's should be running PAG. Why isn't Porsche bankrupt yet?!
03-01-2018, 10:57 PM
#77
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Does anyone have a real sense of the margins on GT cars versus standard 911's, versus Porsche SUVs? It would be interesting to see which vehicles bring bigger profits. Is it possible Porsche doesn't make much on GT3's but the buzz around them brings additional sales? They may not have a reason to increase production. Obviously some other car makers do this with niche cars (Ford GT for example), but it's hard to say GT cars (especially the GT3/GT4) are truly niche products.
03-01-2018, 11:18 PM
#78
Originally Posted by SKY57
Make sense. Chinese market is full of long-wheel-base sedan and SUV's. Huge mark-up for years when the gen 2 Cayenne was introduced back in the day.
Funny 911 were selling at discount at the same time. I remember even 991.1 GT3 were sitting in the showroom.
Funny 911 were selling at discount at the same time. I remember even 991.1 GT3 were sitting in the showroom.
03-02-2018, 12:17 AM
#79
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03-02-2018, 12:32 AM
#80
Burning Brakes
How good is your source for that information? I find the claim quite dubious, because if so PAG could easily increase the price at which they sell cars to the dealers and immediately correct this imbalance. Why would they take a financial hit on the most in demand units which would most easily absorb a price increase across the board?
03-02-2018, 12:36 AM
#81
Seems to me they've accomplished that by setting the GT MSRP below what it should be, i.e., Porsche sets GT MSRP below what they know to be the true market value of the car.
What this slight of hand does is it allows the dealer to set an ADM "market adjustment." An amount which becomes pure dealer profit.
Why does Porsche hand the dealer the additional GT ADM profit when they could easily rake it in themselves by raising the MSRP (and invoice) on GT cars?
Dealers need the money to survive, perhaps?
03-02-2018, 01:58 AM
#82
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mcsmcs1 wrote:
What ipse dixit says is true, and its been this way since the first 996 GT3 came out. Think about it, a TON of performance stuff crammed into one car. More than probably any other car in the line up including the turbo. The motor alone is more expensive than any other motor in the line up. It comes straight from the Race dept hand made, it has titanium bits all through it. Its more labor intensive than any other car to make yet its priced less than a base turbo. In the case of the 996 it has a metzger motor while the rest of the lineup had the less expensive cheap mass produced motor in the 996 lineup. The cost of a 996 GT motor was like $45.000 and a 996 911 motor was like 6,000. Yet it was priced below a base turbo. The 996 GT body was seem welded instead of spot welded for rigidity. The rest of the 911 lineup was just spot welded. So I heard in the 996 days (we supported a LeMans effort in 2004) that Porsche may lose money on a GT3. They sell 3000 a year. Not much to recoup the motor development.
Now look at a SUV. Its a shared platform with all the other makers in the VW group. A mass produced engine with very little performance in it, slapped together just like an Audi, or a VW. Then Porsche adds some luxury stuff and a huge markup. LOTS of profit compared to a car that shares nothing with any other car across the corporation. Plus they sell a gazillion compared to any other car in its line up to spread out any costs they may have by making the SUV.
When Porsche just made 911s they didn't make much money. Then they added the Cayenne and in just a few years they were the most profitable car company in the world.
The GT3 has always been the smallest profit margin of any 911. BUT you have to wonder how much they make on the GT2's?
Believe it, if they made a TON of money on a GT3 we would all have 3 or 4 of them.
BTW this has nothing to do with PAG, this is ALL your North American Porsche dealer. just like Sonnen said. In fact one of the main reasons Porsche came out with the Touring model was to knock the air out of the 911 R market. It upset Porsche that the R wasn't being driven and was turning into a commodity instead of a car thats driven. Porsche makes cars to be driven (that was according to Andy P.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipse dixit
GT cars have lowest profit margin for PAG of all cars in the lineup.
How good is your source for that information? I find the claim quite dubious, because if so PAG could easily increase the price at which they sell cars to the dealers and immediately correct this imbalance. Why would they take a financial hit on the most in demand units which would most easily absorb a price increase across the board?
Originally Posted by ipse dixit
GT cars have lowest profit margin for PAG of all cars in the lineup.
How good is your source for that information? I find the claim quite dubious, because if so PAG could easily increase the price at which they sell cars to the dealers and immediately correct this imbalance. Why would they take a financial hit on the most in demand units which would most easily absorb a price increase across the board?
Now look at a SUV. Its a shared platform with all the other makers in the VW group. A mass produced engine with very little performance in it, slapped together just like an Audi, or a VW. Then Porsche adds some luxury stuff and a huge markup. LOTS of profit compared to a car that shares nothing with any other car across the corporation. Plus they sell a gazillion compared to any other car in its line up to spread out any costs they may have by making the SUV.
When Porsche just made 911s they didn't make much money. Then they added the Cayenne and in just a few years they were the most profitable car company in the world.
The GT3 has always been the smallest profit margin of any 911. BUT you have to wonder how much they make on the GT2's?
Believe it, if they made a TON of money on a GT3 we would all have 3 or 4 of them.
BTW this has nothing to do with PAG, this is ALL your North American Porsche dealer. just like Sonnen said. In fact one of the main reasons Porsche came out with the Touring model was to knock the air out of the 911 R market. It upset Porsche that the R wasn't being driven and was turning into a commodity instead of a car thats driven. Porsche makes cars to be driven (that was according to Andy P.)
03-02-2018, 02:44 AM
#83
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mcsmcs1 wrote:
What ipse dixit says is true, and its been this way since the first 996 GT3 came out. Think about it, a TON of performance stuff crammed into one car. More than probably any other car in the line up including the turbo. The motor alone is more expensive than any other motor in the line up. It comes straight from the Race dept hand made, it has titanium bits all through it. Its more labor intensive than any other car to make yet its priced less than a base turbo. In the case of the 996 it has a metzger motor while the rest of the lineup had the less expensive cheap mass produced motor in the 996 lineup. The cost of a 996 GT motor was like $45.000 and a 996 911 motor was like 6,000. Yet it was priced below a base turbo. The 996 GT body was seem welded instead of spot welded for rigidity. The rest of the 911 lineup was just spot welded. So I heard that Porsche may lose money on a GT3. They sell 3000 a year. Not much to recoup the motor development.
Now look at a SUV. Its a shared platform with all the other makers in the VW group. A mass produced engine with very little performance in it, slapped together just like an Audi, or a VW. Then Porsche adds some luxury stuff and a huge markup. LOTS of profit compared to a car that shares nothing with any other car across the corporation. Plus they sell a gazillion compared to any other car in its line up to spread out any costs they may have by making the SUV.
When Porsche just made 911s they didn't make much money. Then they added the Cayenne and in just a few years they were the most profitable car company in the world.
The GT3 has always been the smallest profit margin of any 911. BUT you have to wonder how much they make on the GT2's?
Believe it, if they made a TON of money on a GT3 we would all have 3 or 4 of them.
BTW this has nothing to do with PAG, this is ALL your North American Porsche dealer. just like Sonnen said. In fact one of the main reasons Porsche came out with the Touring model was to knock the air out of the 911 R market. It upset Porsche that the R wasn't being driven and was turning into a commodity instead of a car thats driven. Porsche makes cars to be driven (that was according to Andy P.)
What ipse dixit says is true, and its been this way since the first 996 GT3 came out. Think about it, a TON of performance stuff crammed into one car. More than probably any other car in the line up including the turbo. The motor alone is more expensive than any other motor in the line up. It comes straight from the Race dept hand made, it has titanium bits all through it. Its more labor intensive than any other car to make yet its priced less than a base turbo. In the case of the 996 it has a metzger motor while the rest of the lineup had the less expensive cheap mass produced motor in the 996 lineup. The cost of a 996 GT motor was like $45.000 and a 996 911 motor was like 6,000. Yet it was priced below a base turbo. The 996 GT body was seem welded instead of spot welded for rigidity. The rest of the 911 lineup was just spot welded. So I heard that Porsche may lose money on a GT3. They sell 3000 a year. Not much to recoup the motor development.
Now look at a SUV. Its a shared platform with all the other makers in the VW group. A mass produced engine with very little performance in it, slapped together just like an Audi, or a VW. Then Porsche adds some luxury stuff and a huge markup. LOTS of profit compared to a car that shares nothing with any other car across the corporation. Plus they sell a gazillion compared to any other car in its line up to spread out any costs they may have by making the SUV.
When Porsche just made 911s they didn't make much money. Then they added the Cayenne and in just a few years they were the most profitable car company in the world.
The GT3 has always been the smallest profit margin of any 911. BUT you have to wonder how much they make on the GT2's?
Believe it, if they made a TON of money on a GT3 we would all have 3 or 4 of them.
BTW this has nothing to do with PAG, this is ALL your North American Porsche dealer. just like Sonnen said. In fact one of the main reasons Porsche came out with the Touring model was to knock the air out of the 911 R market. It upset Porsche that the R wasn't being driven and was turning into a commodity instead of a car thats driven. Porsche makes cars to be driven (that was according to Andy P.)
I don’t get why Porsche doesn’t just increase the MSRP on the GT3 and RS so those prices matches the Turbo and Turbo S, (15K increase) but produce more GT cars than they do now, to meet demand minus one car, not demand minus 800 cars.
I’d be happy to pay higher MSRP, which would likely hold its value more consistently long-term, than ADM.
03-02-2018, 02:58 AM
#84
Burning Brakes
mcsmcs1 wrote:
What ipse dixit says is true, and its been this way since the first 996 GT3 came out. Think about it, a TON of performance stuff crammed into one car. More than probably any other car in the line up including the turbo. The motor alone is more expensive than any other motor in the line up. It comes straight from the Race dept hand made, it has titanium bits all through it. Its more labor intensive than any other car to make yet its priced less than a base turbo. In the case of the 996 it has a metzger motor while the rest of the lineup had the less expensive cheap mass produced motor in the 996 lineup. The cost of a 996 GT motor was like $45.000 and a 996 911 motor was like 6,000. Yet it was priced below a base turbo. The 996 GT body was seem welded instead of spot welded for rigidity. The rest of the 911 lineup was just spot welded. So I heard that Porsche may lose money on a GT3. They sell 3000 a year. Not much to recoup the motor development.
Now look at a SUV. Its a shared platform with all the other makers in the VW group. A mass produced engine with very little performance in it, slapped together just like an Audi, or a VW. Then Porsche adds some luxury stuff and a huge markup. LOTS of profit compared to a car that shares nothing with any other car across the corporation. Plus they sell a gazillion compared to any other car in its line up to spread out any costs they may have by making the SUV.
When Porsche just made 911s they didn't make much money. Then they added the Cayenne and in just a few years they were the most profitable car company in the world.
The GT3 has always been the smallest profit margin of any 911. BUT you have to wonder how much they make on the GT2's?
Believe it, if they made a TON of money on a GT3 we would all have 3 or 4 of them.
BTW this has nothing to do with PAG, this is ALL your North American Porsche dealer. just like Sonnen said. In fact one of the main reasons Porsche came out with the Touring model was to knock the air out of the 911 R market. It upset Porsche that the R wasn't being driven and was turning into a commodity instead of a car thats driven. Porsche makes cars to be driven (that was according to Andy P.)
What ipse dixit says is true, and its been this way since the first 996 GT3 came out. Think about it, a TON of performance stuff crammed into one car. More than probably any other car in the line up including the turbo. The motor alone is more expensive than any other motor in the line up. It comes straight from the Race dept hand made, it has titanium bits all through it. Its more labor intensive than any other car to make yet its priced less than a base turbo. In the case of the 996 it has a metzger motor while the rest of the lineup had the less expensive cheap mass produced motor in the 996 lineup. The cost of a 996 GT motor was like $45.000 and a 996 911 motor was like 6,000. Yet it was priced below a base turbo. The 996 GT body was seem welded instead of spot welded for rigidity. The rest of the 911 lineup was just spot welded. So I heard that Porsche may lose money on a GT3. They sell 3000 a year. Not much to recoup the motor development.
Now look at a SUV. Its a shared platform with all the other makers in the VW group. A mass produced engine with very little performance in it, slapped together just like an Audi, or a VW. Then Porsche adds some luxury stuff and a huge markup. LOTS of profit compared to a car that shares nothing with any other car across the corporation. Plus they sell a gazillion compared to any other car in its line up to spread out any costs they may have by making the SUV.
When Porsche just made 911s they didn't make much money. Then they added the Cayenne and in just a few years they were the most profitable car company in the world.
The GT3 has always been the smallest profit margin of any 911. BUT you have to wonder how much they make on the GT2's?
Believe it, if they made a TON of money on a GT3 we would all have 3 or 4 of them.
BTW this has nothing to do with PAG, this is ALL your North American Porsche dealer. just like Sonnen said. In fact one of the main reasons Porsche came out with the Touring model was to knock the air out of the 911 R market. It upset Porsche that the R wasn't being driven and was turning into a commodity instead of a car thats driven. Porsche makes cars to be driven (that was according to Andy P.)
03-02-2018, 03:02 AM
#85
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That was during the 996 days, I should have clarified. And it was something I heard from a guy connected to a Customer LeMans effort in 2004 we were involved in, through Porsche Motor sport. The point being that the margins on these cars are very slim
It had mostly to do with the extra labor to produce the cars, and the motors.
The reason they do these cars is for attention to their motorsport programs, not to really make any significant money which they dont.
But Drifting I have no idea why they dont raise the prices so that we dont have to have to play the games. I would as you pay more so that we dont have to do this. As it is we pay as much as a turbo anyway after all the stupid games.
It had mostly to do with the extra labor to produce the cars, and the motors.
The reason they do these cars is for attention to their motorsport programs, not to really make any significant money which they dont.
But Drifting I have no idea why they dont raise the prices so that we dont have to have to play the games. I would as you pay more so that we dont have to do this. As it is we pay as much as a turbo anyway after all the stupid games.
03-02-2018, 03:15 AM
#86
Burning Brakes
That was during the 996 days, I should have clarified. And it was something I heard from a guy connected to a Customer LeMans effort in 2004 we were involved in, through Porsche Motor sport. The point being that the margins on these cars are very slim
It had mostly to do with the extra labor to produce the cars, and the motors.
But Drifting I have no idea why they dont raise the prices so that we dont have to have to play the games. I would as you pay more so that we dont have to do this. As it is we pay as much as a turbo anyway after all the stupid games.
It had mostly to do with the extra labor to produce the cars, and the motors.
But Drifting I have no idea why they dont raise the prices so that we dont have to have to play the games. I would as you pay more so that we dont have to do this. As it is we pay as much as a turbo anyway after all the stupid games.
03-02-2018, 03:17 AM
#87
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LOL
if the raise the price you will pay more ADM
60k on top of 300k is less (20%) than 60k on 150k (40%)
PAG making less margins on GTs...
this is the WORST BS RL sentence ever
you guys are born to be fooled
if the raise the price you will pay more ADM
60k on top of 300k is less (20%) than 60k on 150k (40%)
PAG making less margins on GTs...
this is the WORST BS RL sentence ever
you guys are born to be fooled
03-02-2018, 03:34 AM
#88
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mcsmcs1 I agree, if PAG or PCNA would raise the price to a turbo level and we could just walk in and buy one like a Turbo or Turbo S I would be happy to pay more. But like the last guy said,
the ADMS would go up because of the reduced numbers. BUT this is probably my last Porsche. For instance my wife wanted a small SUV because my BMW X5M gets lousy milage (why do I have a BMW? Because Porsche in SoCal played games with the Cayenne when I wanted one and my BMW guy sold me a X5M for the price of a Cayenne S) and she wanted a Subaru and I said we would get a Macan. But after this I let her go to the Suby dealer and buy one.
In the old days they only built so many to qualify for racing. I dont know if that still applies but Porsche has said in the past they would build as many as they could sell, but that was BEFORE VW took over in 2009. So who knows? I KNOW they are pissing off a lot of former Porsche buyers and current Porsche owners.
the ADMS would go up because of the reduced numbers. BUT this is probably my last Porsche. For instance my wife wanted a small SUV because my BMW X5M gets lousy milage (why do I have a BMW? Because Porsche in SoCal played games with the Cayenne when I wanted one and my BMW guy sold me a X5M for the price of a Cayenne S) and she wanted a Subaru and I said we would get a Macan. But after this I let her go to the Suby dealer and buy one.
In the old days they only built so many to qualify for racing. I dont know if that still applies but Porsche has said in the past they would build as many as they could sell, but that was BEFORE VW took over in 2009. So who knows? I KNOW they are pissing off a lot of former Porsche buyers and current Porsche owners.
03-02-2018, 03:36 AM
#89
Yeah, I'm sure some people think that they are losing money on the GT3. haha I'd bet they make more profit total dollar value profit on a GT3 than on a Macan or Cayenne even though the % profit is lower.
