991.2 GT3 manual concern
02-10-2018, 12:15 PM
#121
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Originally Posted by robmypro
Good post C.J. Didn’t Chris Harris drive the 991.1 GT3 and the 458 Speciale on track, and the times were almost identical? In fact, if i remember that video correctly, the lap time set by the Speciale was when it wasn’t raining, while the wipers were going the whole time in the GT3. Extremely capable cars for less that $200k.
Porsche Decided that in order to defeat the evil FERRARI TIFOSI that their ultimate weapon was THE TIRES. Where the evil FERRARI TIFOSI decided that they would try to win galactic supremacy through Fibonacci sequenced exhaust valve timing, porsche realized that THE RENNLISTER does not award grammy's for sound but yet does award pole position for laptimes.
Soundly defeated at Sebring, Thunderhill and COTA by Trakcar, Mooty, and the rest of the GT3RS rebellion, FERRARI has decided to TURBOCHARGE in order to take on all challenges.
02-10-2018, 12:23 PM
#122
Three Wheelin'
Not necessarily. I think they purposely build cars that are JUUUUUUST a smidge off, so you keep wanting and coming back for the next model.
Look at Porsche, there are sooooo many variants, sooooo many option boxes to tick or not. Yet none of them is exactly how we would want it. We are still left wanting this or that in the next model. That sells cars ...
Look at Porsche, there are sooooo many variants, sooooo many option boxes to tick or not. Yet none of them is exactly how we would want it. We are still left wanting this or that in the next model. That sells cars ...
02-10-2018, 05:07 PM
#123
a long time ago in a galaxy far away,
Porsche Decided that in order to defeat the evil FERRARI TIFOSI that their ultimate weapon was THE TIRES. Where the evil FERRARI TIFOSI decided that they would try to win galactic supremacy through Fibonacci sequenced exhaust valve timing, porsche realized that THE RENNLISTER does not award grammy's for sound but yet does award pole position for laptimes.
Soundly defeated at Sebring, Thunderhill and COTA by Trakcar, Mooty, and the rest of the GT3RS rebellion, FERRARI has decided to TURBOCHARGE in order to take on all challenges.
Porsche Decided that in order to defeat the evil FERRARI TIFOSI that their ultimate weapon was THE TIRES. Where the evil FERRARI TIFOSI decided that they would try to win galactic supremacy through Fibonacci sequenced exhaust valve timing, porsche realized that THE RENNLISTER does not award grammy's for sound but yet does award pole position for laptimes.
Soundly defeated at Sebring, Thunderhill and COTA by Trakcar, Mooty, and the rest of the GT3RS rebellion, FERRARI has decided to TURBOCHARGE in order to take on all challenges.
I am Spartacus!!!
02-10-2018, 07:08 PM
#127
I'm probably just jaded enough that can put it in black and white:
The Spyder is really the last manual car that you can rip and hoon in 3rd gear off the track- everything else besides maybe the R is not just geared for autobahn blasts but also has so much rear tire that the "edge" is insane. The Spyder and the R have just enough LACK of rear grip that the cars dance around a bit. Makes it more FUN. Too much grip can be a back thing. Sometimes you need a little squishy squish to get to the happy zone behind the wheel.
The GT4: people complained about gearing, about nose lift being absent, and not being able to order buckets at one point. Nobody complained about the gear throw, the brakes, the torque, the price tag, or the chassis under 9/10. Great road car. For 100k the GT4 and Spyder are the best 100k msrp cars porsche has made since the good ole days.
The GT3.1 people complained about the recall, the inability to order buckets at the time (later solved) the lack of torque, the lack of manual. Nobody complained about the sound, HP, the redline, the steering, the brakes, or the lap times that PDK helped produce.
The new manual GT3 has 60ft/lbs less torque than the GTS. The GTS has turbos. The Turbo has over 500 ft/lbs at 2750 rpm and will make any GT3 from any generation feel slow at 3k rpms.
The 458 (one of the previous posters) is very high end power and no torque. Yes it has some torque from being a v8 but not compared to a turbo. It's like driving the new GTS. What you hear from the Ferrari is a valve that opens at 3k RPM that makes it sound faster. 458's are slower in practical purposes than a GT3.2. But they sound more exotic. I'd say the new GTS is significantly faster than a 458 as well. But once again the 458 has some skinny tires and loud noises...so it's fun. VERY FUN.
RS.1 people complained about the funky torque profile (dip at 4200rpm) the scoops on the side, the ADM, the diminishing returns ("why should I pay 100k more for an RS?") and that realistically the lap times were actually so similar it comes down to driver on a GT3 vs RS comparo. Nobody complained about the gearbox, the amazing grip, how much easier it was to drive on track because of rear steering, the brakes, or the carbon bits. The GT3RS has SO MUCH TIRE. Same tire sizes as 918!! That in combo with the rear steering means you have to be 2x posted speed limit to feel dangerous. The car is so capable that below 140mph there is zero doubt the car can do as intended. Technically it's a tour de force. But it still has holes in the torque curve compared to mclaren ($$$$) ferrari ($$$$) AMG GTR (same relative price) z06, etc.
But that's because those are all forced induction v8's! Of course a FI V8 will have more motor. That's the whole ethos of those cars: throw more power at it.
The new GT3 manual has a dual mass flywheel. If it had the R's single mass flywheel it would be more fun. It's geared to do 200. So, yes at 80mph it might be a little undramatic in 4th gear. If it had skinnier or less grippy rear tires, it would be more fun but also easier to crash. Trade offs.
There is no perfect car for 175,000. Every car will have a weakness or a lack of practicality or frailty or something. But as a whole GT3's really do so many things well it's the best compromise for the enthusiast Driver's. Space, power, build quality, track durability, etc.
A perfect car would be at least 500,000
The Spyder is really the last manual car that you can rip and hoon in 3rd gear off the track- everything else besides maybe the R is not just geared for autobahn blasts but also has so much rear tire that the "edge" is insane. The Spyder and the R have just enough LACK of rear grip that the cars dance around a bit. Makes it more FUN. Too much grip can be a back thing. Sometimes you need a little squishy squish to get to the happy zone behind the wheel.
The GT4: people complained about gearing, about nose lift being absent, and not being able to order buckets at one point. Nobody complained about the gear throw, the brakes, the torque, the price tag, or the chassis under 9/10. Great road car. For 100k the GT4 and Spyder are the best 100k msrp cars porsche has made since the good ole days.
The GT3.1 people complained about the recall, the inability to order buckets at the time (later solved) the lack of torque, the lack of manual. Nobody complained about the sound, HP, the redline, the steering, the brakes, or the lap times that PDK helped produce.
The new manual GT3 has 60ft/lbs less torque than the GTS. The GTS has turbos. The Turbo has over 500 ft/lbs at 2750 rpm and will make any GT3 from any generation feel slow at 3k rpms.
The 458 (one of the previous posters) is very high end power and no torque. Yes it has some torque from being a v8 but not compared to a turbo. It's like driving the new GTS. What you hear from the Ferrari is a valve that opens at 3k RPM that makes it sound faster. 458's are slower in practical purposes than a GT3.2. But they sound more exotic. I'd say the new GTS is significantly faster than a 458 as well. But once again the 458 has some skinny tires and loud noises...so it's fun. VERY FUN.
RS.1 people complained about the funky torque profile (dip at 4200rpm) the scoops on the side, the ADM, the diminishing returns ("why should I pay 100k more for an RS?") and that realistically the lap times were actually so similar it comes down to driver on a GT3 vs RS comparo. Nobody complained about the gearbox, the amazing grip, how much easier it was to drive on track because of rear steering, the brakes, or the carbon bits. The GT3RS has SO MUCH TIRE. Same tire sizes as 918!! That in combo with the rear steering means you have to be 2x posted speed limit to feel dangerous. The car is so capable that below 140mph there is zero doubt the car can do as intended. Technically it's a tour de force. But it still has holes in the torque curve compared to mclaren ($$$$) ferrari ($$$$) AMG GTR (same relative price) z06, etc.
But that's because those are all forced induction v8's! Of course a FI V8 will have more motor. That's the whole ethos of those cars: throw more power at it.
The new GT3 manual has a dual mass flywheel. If it had the R's single mass flywheel it would be more fun. It's geared to do 200. So, yes at 80mph it might be a little undramatic in 4th gear. If it had skinnier or less grippy rear tires, it would be more fun but also easier to crash. Trade offs.
There is no perfect car for 175,000. Every car will have a weakness or a lack of practicality or frailty or something. But as a whole GT3's really do so many things well it's the best compromise for the enthusiast Driver's. Space, power, build quality, track durability, etc.
A perfect car would be at least 500,000
I was thinking of trading the gt2 and .2 3RS for a CGT.
would you suggest the trade?
02-10-2018, 10:32 PM
#128
Drifting
So I just drove a fellow Rennlister's new 991.2 GT3 with manual transmission. And I drove a 991.1 GT3RS PDK a few weeks ago.
The GT3.2 is still being broken in, so I couldn't take it over 4k. That said, here are my thoughts:
The GT3.2 in stiff suspension mode is about equal to the .1 GT3RS in soft suspension mode. I was surprised how soft and compliant the new .2 is. I can see myself driving around with the dampening button on at all times.
The car has plenty of low-end torque, for what the car is (high-revving track car). But it definitely wants to scream through the gears. You can just feel it. It calls out to be floored in every gear. Are the gears too tall? No. I don't think so. You just need to manage your expectations going in. This car is designed and built for a specific application. If you buy it thinking it's a low-end torque stoplight-to-stoplight monster, then you're going to be disappointed. But if you understand it's a savage high-revving, NA, track weapon that wants to scream at 9,000 RPM... then you'll be just fine.
Around town, at 3,500 RPM, it's fine. Hell, the car is so compliant and tame at city speeds and low RPM, it's fine for a daily driver. When I posted a thread a while back asking if the GT3 would be right for me since I live in San Francisco and I wanted a sports car to take out on fun twisty back roads, everybody said no, it's too harsh and blah blah blah. Well I learned a lesson by driving the RS and the GT3.2: don't listen to people on the internet. They're all 95% wrong most of the time haha. I'm glad I stuck with my GT3 order. It's not as harsh and loud and crass as everyone said. I can't wait for mine to arrive!
The other thing is now I'm kinda torn between the transmissions. It's immediately obvious when you first get in these cars (and you've driven both) that the PDK is night-and-day faster. It just shifts so fast. It's undeniable. I'm no race car driver. I can drive a stick fine, but I know I can't row through the gears like a pro. But it will be engaging on the street, where I'll spend 99% of my time. The PDK is like driving a video game. And because it's so fast, I found myself shifting gears just for the hell of it. I'm gonna stick with the manual transmission though.
tl;dr
The manual is good. Gears aren't too tall in my opinion. Car has plenty of low-end torque for driving around town at 4k RPM. And having taken a .1 RS to redline, I can presume the .2 GT3 will blow my mind as well if it's supposed to be similar (if not better).
The GT3.2 is still being broken in, so I couldn't take it over 4k. That said, here are my thoughts:
The GT3.2 in stiff suspension mode is about equal to the .1 GT3RS in soft suspension mode. I was surprised how soft and compliant the new .2 is. I can see myself driving around with the dampening button on at all times.
The car has plenty of low-end torque, for what the car is (high-revving track car). But it definitely wants to scream through the gears. You can just feel it. It calls out to be floored in every gear. Are the gears too tall? No. I don't think so. You just need to manage your expectations going in. This car is designed and built for a specific application. If you buy it thinking it's a low-end torque stoplight-to-stoplight monster, then you're going to be disappointed. But if you understand it's a savage high-revving, NA, track weapon that wants to scream at 9,000 RPM... then you'll be just fine.
Around town, at 3,500 RPM, it's fine. Hell, the car is so compliant and tame at city speeds and low RPM, it's fine for a daily driver. When I posted a thread a while back asking if the GT3 would be right for me since I live in San Francisco and I wanted a sports car to take out on fun twisty back roads, everybody said no, it's too harsh and blah blah blah. Well I learned a lesson by driving the RS and the GT3.2: don't listen to people on the internet. They're all 95% wrong most of the time haha. I'm glad I stuck with my GT3 order. It's not as harsh and loud and crass as everyone said. I can't wait for mine to arrive!
The other thing is now I'm kinda torn between the transmissions. It's immediately obvious when you first get in these cars (and you've driven both) that the PDK is night-and-day faster. It just shifts so fast. It's undeniable. I'm no race car driver. I can drive a stick fine, but I know I can't row through the gears like a pro. But it will be engaging on the street, where I'll spend 99% of my time. The PDK is like driving a video game. And because it's so fast, I found myself shifting gears just for the hell of it. I'm gonna stick with the manual transmission though.
tl;dr
The manual is good. Gears aren't too tall in my opinion. Car has plenty of low-end torque for driving around town at 4k RPM. And having taken a .1 RS to redline, I can presume the .2 GT3 will blow my mind as well if it's supposed to be similar (if not better).
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AGO (10-17-2021)
02-10-2018, 10:51 PM
#129
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
02-10-2018, 10:57 PM
#130
Race Director
Originally Posted by race7117
I am a member of the RS Rebellion!!!!
I am Spartacus!!!
I am Spartacus!!!
Originally Posted by C.J. Ichiban
I'm Spartacus
02-10-2018, 11:55 PM
#132
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as close to perfect as I can fathom:
F12 TDF- noise, power, rare, pretty paint schemes, funky interior, LOUD NOISE V12
997 RS 4.0
675LT Spider
720S- cannot wait for future LT version
FGT 2018? yet to be seen
SLS AMG Black Series- rare, loud, preposterous doors, carbon stuff, big *** NA engine, huge tires, ceramic brakes- and is basically suicidal for tires
Carrera GT
Singer for those of you who like that stuff
RUF CTR2 if you like that stuff
Ruf Yellowbird CTR
911R- manual, sought after, single mass flywheel, stripes, loud noises, rare
CLK DTM
LFA Nurburgring
then I go down a rabbit hole:
Audi Sport Quattro swb
Lancia 037
1973 RS Lightweight Series 1
F12 TDF- noise, power, rare, pretty paint schemes, funky interior, LOUD NOISE V12
997 RS 4.0
675LT Spider
720S- cannot wait for future LT version
FGT 2018? yet to be seen
SLS AMG Black Series- rare, loud, preposterous doors, carbon stuff, big *** NA engine, huge tires, ceramic brakes- and is basically suicidal for tires
Carrera GT
Singer for those of you who like that stuff
RUF CTR2 if you like that stuff
Ruf Yellowbird CTR
911R- manual, sought after, single mass flywheel, stripes, loud noises, rare
CLK DTM
LFA Nurburgring
then I go down a rabbit hole:
Audi Sport Quattro swb
Lancia 037
1973 RS Lightweight Series 1
02-11-2018, 01:53 AM
#133
as close to perfect as I can fathom:
F12 TDF- noise, power, rare, pretty paint schemes, funky interior, LOUD NOISE V12
997 RS 4.0
675LT Spider
720S- cannot wait for future LT version
FGT 2018? yet to be seen
SLS AMG Black Series- rare, loud, preposterous doors, carbon stuff, big *** NA engine, huge tires, ceramic brakes- and is basically suicidal for tires
Carrera GT
Singer for those of you who like that stuff
RUF CTR2 if you like that stuff
Ruf Yellowbird CTR
911R- manual, sought after, single mass flywheel, stripes, loud noises, rare
CLK DTM
LFA Nurburgring
then I go down a rabbit hole:
Audi Sport Quattro swb
Lancia 037
1973 RS Lightweight Series 1
F12 TDF- noise, power, rare, pretty paint schemes, funky interior, LOUD NOISE V12
997 RS 4.0
675LT Spider
720S- cannot wait for future LT version
FGT 2018? yet to be seen
SLS AMG Black Series- rare, loud, preposterous doors, carbon stuff, big *** NA engine, huge tires, ceramic brakes- and is basically suicidal for tires
Carrera GT
Singer for those of you who like that stuff
RUF CTR2 if you like that stuff
Ruf Yellowbird CTR
911R- manual, sought after, single mass flywheel, stripes, loud noises, rare
CLK DTM
LFA Nurburgring
then I go down a rabbit hole:
Audi Sport Quattro swb
Lancia 037
1973 RS Lightweight Series 1
02-11-2018, 09:38 AM
#134
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Originally Posted by BrntRubber
And if you could only have 2 of those for the rest of your days?
02-11-2018, 10:11 AM
#135
Rennlist Member
There is no perfect car for 175,000. Every car will have a weakness or a lack of practicality or frailty or something. But as a whole GT3's really do so many things well it's the best compromise for the enthusiast Driver's. Space, power, build quality, track durability, etc.
A perfect car would be at least 500,000
A perfect car would be at least 500,000
There are plenty of perfect cars for everyone for way under 175k provided that 1) they free themselves from the marketing-, ego-, social-signalling-, peer-pressure to always have the models anointed as "must-have" by the sales-pushing complex (car-makers, journalists, dealers, etc.). and 2) they are willing to make modest drive-train/suspension/alignment modifications to suit their driving preferences and back-roads.