Waiting on your GT3 to arrive? Prepare yourself.
11-13-2017, 09:32 AM
#76
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lol...maybe not the best example. But how long did porsche take to include Bluetooth, iPod integration, sat radio, oh, back up camera, touch screen, etc.
finally...right. So, people asked, and Porsche gave.
hopefully with threads like this, informed Porsche enthusiast buyers, maybe we can get Porsche to put a little more focus on the final product as it relates to paint finish.
they are an amazing company, but I don’t remember seeing these problem on 996 or 997...I can’t go that far back to new 993 as I didn’t start truly detailing until mid 90s and didn’t know what I was looking for back then
11-13-2017, 09:34 AM
#77
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
If I were to use the same logic, in 2006, a Porsche GT3 was $106k...regular 911 was around $80k...fast forward today and let me know what you think of Porsche wanting a “hand out”.
times change...that $600 full front clear bra installation you speak of was at best a precut that was 1/3 of the hood, small area of fenders behind headlights, a bumper installation with edges and seams everywhere, and that’s just the installation. Let’s not even talk about the film which had extreme orange peep, was yellow, would turn cloudy over time, and once you scratched or swirled it, forget about it healing itself. It WAS the nightmare installation that haunts many owners today.
times change, technology improves, and value goes up. You’re not getting that same $600 install for 3-4x today...you’re getting technology, aesthetics, durability, and much more than you ever got a few years ago.
the market decides what comes and goes...thank goodness for advancement...LED lights, pdk, centerlocks, pccb, etc. etc.
times change...that $600 full front clear bra installation you speak of was at best a precut that was 1/3 of the hood, small area of fenders behind headlights, a bumper installation with edges and seams everywhere, and that’s just the installation. Let’s not even talk about the film which had extreme orange peep, was yellow, would turn cloudy over time, and once you scratched or swirled it, forget about it healing itself. It WAS the nightmare installation that haunts many owners today.
times change, technology improves, and value goes up. You’re not getting that same $600 install for 3-4x today...you’re getting technology, aesthetics, durability, and much more than you ever got a few years ago.
the market decides what comes and goes...thank goodness for advancement...LED lights, pdk, centerlocks, pccb, etc. etc.
The bar has been risen greatly over the last 5 years.
11-13-2017, 09:35 AM
#78
Let’s all stop arguing for a second, as this thread still has some value...
It’s well known that any car will arrive from the factory with light scratches and swirls. What we need to find out is whether this current batch of GT3 is arriving in worse condition than other current Porsche’s.
Can any .2 gt3 owners that also own/have owned other Porsche’s provide some insight?
It’s well known that any car will arrive from the factory with light scratches and swirls. What we need to find out is whether this current batch of GT3 is arriving in worse condition than other current Porsche’s.
Can any .2 gt3 owners that also own/have owned other Porsche’s provide some insight?
11-13-2017, 09:56 AM
#79
Delete
11-13-2017, 10:25 AM
#80
Rennlist Member
No issues with my GR. But then again I didn’t spend two hours magnifying glass in hand trying to find fault in the car. Deliver day is a day of excitement and celebration. Not a day to be stressing over a possible swirl.
To give you some idea how meticulous Porsche is in inspecting the car before delivery, they found a SCRATCH on the inside fender lining when it came off the boat. It was reported on the PDI report and Porsche is sending a new lining from Germany to replace the scratched one. I would have never known of the scratch. Nevertheless, Porsche wanted it replaced.
To give you some idea how meticulous Porsche is in inspecting the car before delivery, they found a SCRATCH on the inside fender lining when it came off the boat. It was reported on the PDI report and Porsche is sending a new lining from Germany to replace the scratched one. I would have never known of the scratch. Nevertheless, Porsche wanted it replaced.
11-13-2017, 12:10 PM
#81
Burning Brakes
Glad your car arrived as expected... Good reports are as important as bad ones.
11-13-2017, 01:30 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
Hard to understand the intensity of some of the reactions here to what struck me as a helpful heads up type of post. Yes, there may be a possibility that JC would get some additional work from this, but that is probably negligible. I assume he gets most of his business based on referrals from former clients such as myself and from having a long track record of doing outstanding work. I've had nothing but good experiences with JC and he will be picking up my .2 GT3 from PEC on his enclosed trailer when it arrives in Jan/Feb. There aren't many detailers that provide that type of service. His prices are higher than average, but have always struck me as fair for what you get. To each their own, but I'm thankful companies like Detailed Designs are in business and contribute to forums like this.
11-13-2017, 01:32 PM
#83
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by CAlexio
THATS what you got out of his entire very-will written post??
Oh look, there’s a rabbit, go chase it!
pity that great vendors who are providing free information are being treated like this.
Oh look, there’s a rabbit, go chase it!
pity that great vendors who are providing free information are being treated like this.
I posted a ton prior to that directly relating to paint, prep, correction and sealing/wrapping, and didn’t have anything to add to that particular reply beyond the wheels which he brought up.
But since they brought it up I asked. I wasn’t being confrontational; I really want to know what the deal is with them. It’s still a street car, and even if you have an honest to goodness pit crew, and actually race the car in a manner in which tenths of seconds on your wheel swap times will count towards your results, then why isn’t there a racing fuel cap option? Cause that would be WAY more effective.
He brought up that CL’s are amazing modern tech and lumped them into a broad category of progress so I’m just wondering what that progress actually is?
11-13-2017, 02:37 PM
#84
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Something may have been lost in my video due to it being shot at night and in my shop.
The defects showing were neither minor in nature nor did they require any kind of magnification to see them. Because it was about 2am when I shot the video and all I had was LED lighting for the work and not studio lighting for shooting pro-level videos, I assisted with using a hand held light. The only thing required to see them after it was delivered was a decontamination wash. For any that may not know what that is, a decon wash is intended to remove products sitting on top of the clear coat that artificially mask the real condition of the paint/clear coat. There are a few very good reasons to remove these products.
·The filler will absolutely wash out over time anyways which leads to on-going details that continue to mask the defects and perpetuates a model of the paint never looking close to as good as it could and the private owner never knows what's possible. (for any that don't mind defects, this is a moot point) When, for many a proper paint correction service and quality on-going care can mean paint looks gorgeous without the need to take it somewhere for regular "buff n polish" services. With proper care, paint correction is a one-time experience for a car. There are very few exceptions to that.
·When any protection like a wax, sealant, and especially a coating, has products sitting between the protectant and paint it limits durability, looks and protection to a large degree. For a coating to have *anything* between it and the clear coat is to be a complete and utter waste of money and effort. This is one of the areas that makes me livid. There are countless pro's satisfied with using oily products that mask defects as a means to fit in a client's budget and ultimately it leads to poor protection and premature failure of the coating(neither of which the owner is being made aware of when their ear is tickled by the professional). A better approach is to explain why doing things the right way is important and the only way..... even possibly telling someone that the coating is not the right fit if they want "perfection" from the paint before installing a coating when the budget does not fit doing it the ethical way. These are some of the corner cutting techniques very few private owners understand due to the great nuances of these technologies. (This situation should not be confused with someone having light defects or paint that is in pretty good condition, being satisfied with the current appearance but also wanting additional gloss, easier cleaning and the protection a coating provides) At the end of the day, it's about whatever is done is done right for what it is and it's not about cutting corners, tickling ears and deceiving private owners into believing they are paying for one thing and are actually receiving something else.
·Some owners simply "want it done right". Without decontaminating, it's impossible to know what's going on with paint and if your LSP(last step protection) is giving someone the most it can. Some are OCD about this and some aren't. We tend to work for the OCD(I say that with compassion as someone facing the same....uhhh.....mindframe
). I recognize this isn't for everyone and I would never suggest it is for everyone. It's about putting the information out there for those that are into it.
If paint has not been decontaminated and it's new, there is a very good chance it may appear perfect. But over time, whatever is masking defects is going to get washed out. The decon wash, safely and chemically, removes the stuff that is short-lived and allows us to assess what's really going on so that our client may make a long term choice based upon the facts. Sometimes they come to us and look beautiful after a decon and sometimes they look terrible. I am just the messenger and can't control what's really going on.
You may be asking or critically questioning how filler masks defects?
Do you know what refraction and reflection is? (The following illustration exists in a vacuum for the sake of helping to explain this concept) Think of a perfect surface like a mirror. It returns a perfect image of what's in front of it due to reflection. If you introduce defects into the surface of the mirror the image it returns will begin looking distorted, scuffed up, cloudy, etc. due to the defects refracting light. At its core, refraction is caused by changes in the medium that light is transmitting off of(shooting from the hip). When the medium(in this case: clear coat) is smooth, it reflects and you see only what's reflected. When you see scratches, swirl marks, etc., you are actually seeing light refracted off of the defect in the medium(the clear coat).
Products that "fill" paint do exactly as it's named. It fills the microscopic voids that would otherwise allow refraction to occur. Have any of you ever seen your paint look incredible when wet and all those scratches you normally see aren't visible? That's because the water is doing the exact same thing. It's allowing light to reflect off the surface of the water and not refract off of the underlying defects. Filler-products are designed to accomplish a few things:
·First of all, improve the appearance of the surface.
·Most importantly for ones using them: Work FAST. Real paint correction....leveling the surface of the paint, is not naturally a fast process. But it is permanent in that once those defects are fixed, you can only cause new damage and if cared for properly, paint correction should be off your to-do list for a *very long time*, if ever again for that car.
·In some cases, products have something called durable fillers. These are advanced petroleum-based(silicone in most cases) products that will mask defects for months. These products are actually wonderful for some private owners. But that should be the owner's call and not a detailer who is using them to take shortcuts unbeknownst to their client.
Where do these fillers come from?
Waxes and sealants.
All-In-One(AIO) products.
Almost any polish or finishing product can naturally fill if the oils are not stripped away after use. Polishes MUST have oils/lubricants. But to use a polish and not strip away the oils after breaking it down, a user is doing a disservice to the car. The oils will mask the standing defects(which thermal expansion can do on paint just the same if someone generates significant enough heat). So, for many of us, we use products and solutions specifically designed to strip away polish oils while correcting paint. This allows us to always see and work on the clear coat and not be blissfully ignorant to what's really going on with our working surface.
On the other hand, there are polishes and glazes specifically engineered to mask defects and to be very easy to use. These are rich in silicones and are pretty much the only products I am aware of that any car manufacturer in the world uses. Put a silicone rich product on a rotary and in the hands of a relatively inexperienced person and they can make it look pretty stinking nice and super fast with little practice. Put a rotary with a product designed to level clear coat in the same guy's hands and the paint will look terrible. THIS is a major reason why decontamination is important on a new car. This is why my primary means of decontamination on a brand new car is chemically decontaminating and not using a mechanical decon(clay bar/decon pad: which will naturally marr and damage paint to a small measure). Most new cars have a layer of filler, not bonded contaminates. My goal is to strip the gooey garbage off the paint while not generating damage myself. The red gt3 in the OP is an example of that and the video below is also an example of that. We only hand washed the cars and chemically decontaminated them and what is shown is what the clear coat looked like the day it left the factory under all the filler.
Here are a few illustrations to show what I am describing.
Here's an OLD 2D cut away I made almost 10 years ago with filled paint:
Once decontaminated the paint is in its natural state.
Here's a revision of my render of modern paint defects, corrected paint and then the options for protection(these are covered by the revised and blown up section). The yellowish area signifies filler masking the condition.
For any that believe my original video to be overly critical with either the lighting or the distance, here's a 2018 gt3 in Graphite Metallic Blue car we only did a chemical decon and hand wash on this morning. My full-frame camera is at home so I had to shoot with my mobile phone. Believe me when I say that the camera does not do what you see in person with your eyes justice.
Hopefully this helps explain the nuances of the topic a bit better.
The defects showing were neither minor in nature nor did they require any kind of magnification to see them. Because it was about 2am when I shot the video and all I had was LED lighting for the work and not studio lighting for shooting pro-level videos, I assisted with using a hand held light. The only thing required to see them after it was delivered was a decontamination wash. For any that may not know what that is, a decon wash is intended to remove products sitting on top of the clear coat that artificially mask the real condition of the paint/clear coat. There are a few very good reasons to remove these products.
·The filler will absolutely wash out over time anyways which leads to on-going details that continue to mask the defects and perpetuates a model of the paint never looking close to as good as it could and the private owner never knows what's possible. (for any that don't mind defects, this is a moot point) When, for many a proper paint correction service and quality on-going care can mean paint looks gorgeous without the need to take it somewhere for regular "buff n polish" services. With proper care, paint correction is a one-time experience for a car. There are very few exceptions to that.
·When any protection like a wax, sealant, and especially a coating, has products sitting between the protectant and paint it limits durability, looks and protection to a large degree. For a coating to have *anything* between it and the clear coat is to be a complete and utter waste of money and effort. This is one of the areas that makes me livid. There are countless pro's satisfied with using oily products that mask defects as a means to fit in a client's budget and ultimately it leads to poor protection and premature failure of the coating(neither of which the owner is being made aware of when their ear is tickled by the professional). A better approach is to explain why doing things the right way is important and the only way..... even possibly telling someone that the coating is not the right fit if they want "perfection" from the paint before installing a coating when the budget does not fit doing it the ethical way. These are some of the corner cutting techniques very few private owners understand due to the great nuances of these technologies. (This situation should not be confused with someone having light defects or paint that is in pretty good condition, being satisfied with the current appearance but also wanting additional gloss, easier cleaning and the protection a coating provides) At the end of the day, it's about whatever is done is done right for what it is and it's not about cutting corners, tickling ears and deceiving private owners into believing they are paying for one thing and are actually receiving something else.
·Some owners simply "want it done right". Without decontaminating, it's impossible to know what's going on with paint and if your LSP(last step protection) is giving someone the most it can. Some are OCD about this and some aren't. We tend to work for the OCD(I say that with compassion as someone facing the same....uhhh.....mindframe
). I recognize this isn't for everyone and I would never suggest it is for everyone. It's about putting the information out there for those that are into it.If paint has not been decontaminated and it's new, there is a very good chance it may appear perfect. But over time, whatever is masking defects is going to get washed out. The decon wash, safely and chemically, removes the stuff that is short-lived and allows us to assess what's really going on so that our client may make a long term choice based upon the facts. Sometimes they come to us and look beautiful after a decon and sometimes they look terrible. I am just the messenger and can't control what's really going on.
You may be asking or critically questioning how filler masks defects?
Do you know what refraction and reflection is? (The following illustration exists in a vacuum for the sake of helping to explain this concept) Think of a perfect surface like a mirror. It returns a perfect image of what's in front of it due to reflection. If you introduce defects into the surface of the mirror the image it returns will begin looking distorted, scuffed up, cloudy, etc. due to the defects refracting light. At its core, refraction is caused by changes in the medium that light is transmitting off of(shooting from the hip). When the medium(in this case: clear coat) is smooth, it reflects and you see only what's reflected. When you see scratches, swirl marks, etc., you are actually seeing light refracted off of the defect in the medium(the clear coat).
Products that "fill" paint do exactly as it's named. It fills the microscopic voids that would otherwise allow refraction to occur. Have any of you ever seen your paint look incredible when wet and all those scratches you normally see aren't visible? That's because the water is doing the exact same thing. It's allowing light to reflect off the surface of the water and not refract off of the underlying defects. Filler-products are designed to accomplish a few things:
·First of all, improve the appearance of the surface.
·Most importantly for ones using them: Work FAST. Real paint correction....leveling the surface of the paint, is not naturally a fast process. But it is permanent in that once those defects are fixed, you can only cause new damage and if cared for properly, paint correction should be off your to-do list for a *very long time*, if ever again for that car.
·In some cases, products have something called durable fillers. These are advanced petroleum-based(silicone in most cases) products that will mask defects for months. These products are actually wonderful for some private owners. But that should be the owner's call and not a detailer who is using them to take shortcuts unbeknownst to their client.
Where do these fillers come from?
Waxes and sealants.
All-In-One(AIO) products.
Almost any polish or finishing product can naturally fill if the oils are not stripped away after use. Polishes MUST have oils/lubricants. But to use a polish and not strip away the oils after breaking it down, a user is doing a disservice to the car. The oils will mask the standing defects(which thermal expansion can do on paint just the same if someone generates significant enough heat). So, for many of us, we use products and solutions specifically designed to strip away polish oils while correcting paint. This allows us to always see and work on the clear coat and not be blissfully ignorant to what's really going on with our working surface.
On the other hand, there are polishes and glazes specifically engineered to mask defects and to be very easy to use. These are rich in silicones and are pretty much the only products I am aware of that any car manufacturer in the world uses. Put a silicone rich product on a rotary and in the hands of a relatively inexperienced person and they can make it look pretty stinking nice and super fast with little practice. Put a rotary with a product designed to level clear coat in the same guy's hands and the paint will look terrible. THIS is a major reason why decontamination is important on a new car. This is why my primary means of decontamination on a brand new car is chemically decontaminating and not using a mechanical decon(clay bar/decon pad: which will naturally marr and damage paint to a small measure). Most new cars have a layer of filler, not bonded contaminates. My goal is to strip the gooey garbage off the paint while not generating damage myself. The red gt3 in the OP is an example of that and the video below is also an example of that. We only hand washed the cars and chemically decontaminated them and what is shown is what the clear coat looked like the day it left the factory under all the filler.
Here are a few illustrations to show what I am describing.
Here's an OLD 2D cut away I made almost 10 years ago with filled paint:
Once decontaminated the paint is in its natural state.
Here's a revision of my render of modern paint defects, corrected paint and then the options for protection(these are covered by the revised and blown up section). The yellowish area signifies filler masking the condition.
For any that believe my original video to be overly critical with either the lighting or the distance, here's a 2018 gt3 in Graphite Metallic Blue car we only did a chemical decon and hand wash on this morning. My full-frame camera is at home so I had to shoot with my mobile phone. Believe me when I say that the camera does not do what you see in person with your eyes justice.
Hopefully this helps explain the nuances of the topic a bit better.
11-13-2017, 03:11 PM
#85
OP is advertising, sure.
But when I picked up my car in Germany from the ED showroom I made them take the car out back to address paint swirls, pain runners and scratches.
And I’m not a show car kinda guy, nor take a good look at new car paint or ever detailed one. Generally I’m a ignorance is bliss, drive it hard guy but this was incredibly bad.
Car came back an out later much better and I did paint fix before wrapping it.
But when I picked up my car in Germany from the ED showroom I made them take the car out back to address paint swirls, pain runners and scratches.
And I’m not a show car kinda guy, nor take a good look at new car paint or ever detailed one. Generally I’m a ignorance is bliss, drive it hard guy but this was incredibly bad.
Car came back an out later much better and I did paint fix before wrapping it.
Was it that simple to tell them to "fix it"?
11-13-2017, 06:25 PM
#86
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
11-13-2017, 06:36 PM
#87
JC, sorry if this was addressed earlier, but are you guys able to remove the center-locks and work on the wheels?
11-13-2017, 07:32 PM
#88
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
11-14-2017, 08:25 AM
#89
I am sorry to report this thread is spot on.
Having finally seen some GT3's in person the paint is no bueno.
Of course it depends on your threshold for perfection and if you have an eye or even CARE about such a thing.
Still I know paint will never be perfect for long so count me in the camp of people who won't spend a crazy amount of money getting it concours ready but just enough that it doesnt bother me when I come in for close embraces and quiet time with my car.
Having finally seen some GT3's in person the paint is no bueno.
Of course it depends on your threshold for perfection and if you have an eye or even CARE about such a thing.
Still I know paint will never be perfect for long so count me in the camp of people who won't spend a crazy amount of money getting it concours ready but just enough that it doesnt bother me when I come in for close embraces and quiet time with my car.
11-14-2017, 09:34 AM
#90
Race Director
While I was all board with the OP, once I washed the video, I was a bit...underwhelmed. Those issues appear to me to be similar what you'd find on most new cars from any number of manufacturers. Sure, the sanding marks are nasty, but overall, Its not as egregious (based on that video) as what I was expecting.
As for a high level of quality, what did you expect. Every manufacturer in the world just cares about money, its their whole purpose of being. Porsche knows that 99.9% of owners may grumble a bit, but they aren't giving the car back and will be online to pay ADM when the next latest greatest whatever shows up.
All cars, regardless of price or fancy manufacturing videos or promises of QC, have issues, often serious ones. Don't like it....nobody cares.
As for a high level of quality, what did you expect. Every manufacturer in the world just cares about money, its their whole purpose of being. Porsche knows that 99.9% of owners may grumble a bit, but they aren't giving the car back and will be online to pay ADM when the next latest greatest whatever shows up.
All cars, regardless of price or fancy manufacturing videos or promises of QC, have issues, often serious ones. Don't like it....nobody cares.