991.1 GT3 COG: Our Meeting with PCNA/PAG plus Porsche's Official Announcement
08-08-2017, 12:48 AM
#137
I feel so ashamed that I was ever skeptical of how Porsche would respond. They are an even greater auto company than I could have ever imagined, and despite the ADM and stealership discussions, they will have my support of their cars indefinitely.
Also, thanks to everyone involved with organizing this. We are so lucky to ride on the backs of your collective efforts!
Also, thanks to everyone involved with organizing this. We are so lucky to ride on the backs of your collective efforts!
08-08-2017, 12:57 AM
#139
Rennlist Member
08-08-2017, 01:05 AM
#140
Rennlist Member
Cool! 
Looked all over for a 30% depreciated 3 year old, whored out 991 GT3..
That dream is now buried in the past for a good while.
Looked all over for a 30% depreciated 3 year old, whored out 991 GT3..
That dream is now buried in the past for a good while.
Last edited by TRAKCAR; 08-08-2017 at 12:24 PM.
08-08-2017, 01:12 AM
#141
Rennlist Member
Walliser indicated that there was no problem wth the top end rebuilds and that the debris from the failed DLC ends up in the filter. He said top end rebuild is fine, but from an operational and customer service perspective, I think they are learning it's more efficient to just swap the engine. We discussed how labor intensive the top end rebuilds have been.
Additionally, the terrifying picutres of scored cylinder walls were an artifact of manufacturing, and he confidently said that they were no related to the issue. He mentioned a "leopard pattern" of the scoring ( and it was entertaining watching him try to translate this from German) that has to do with how they cast, then drill the blocks. Carmen can add more here (his engine did in fact have the leopard pattern), but he said this is normal, and just rarely seen "in the flesh." How many people stare into the pistons of their 991 motor? End result, the top end rebuild is fine
As for the other issue, it depends upon when the rebuild was done. Some of the rebuilds did not get all of the updated parts, some of them did. We did not get a specific schedule. Perhaps the other COG members remember more, but this is my recollection.
Additionally, the terrifying picutres of scored cylinder walls were an artifact of manufacturing, and he confidently said that they were no related to the issue. He mentioned a "leopard pattern" of the scoring ( and it was entertaining watching him try to translate this from German) that has to do with how they cast, then drill the blocks. Carmen can add more here (his engine did in fact have the leopard pattern), but he said this is normal, and just rarely seen "in the flesh." How many people stare into the pistons of their 991 motor? End result, the top end rebuild is fine
As for the other issue, it depends upon when the rebuild was done. Some of the rebuilds did not get all of the updated parts, some of them did. We did not get a specific schedule. Perhaps the other COG members remember more, but this is my recollection.
08-08-2017, 01:15 AM
#142
Race Director
Wow great job guys (COG). I'm not a GT3 owner...just a new lowly GTS...however I really feel good about how Porsche treated the COG guys and Porsche's resolution to this issue.
This report makes me feel good to own a Porsche...even if it's the lowly GTS. LOL!
This report makes me feel good to own a Porsche...even if it's the lowly GTS. LOL!
08-08-2017, 01:48 AM
#144
Basic Sponsor
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At Smokies GT this past April Dundon made a presentation in which they insisted the finger follower premature wear issue was certain to affect all 991.1 GT3/RS/R engines, which appears to have been based on a premature assumption that was incorrect. Dundon didn't do the research like Porsche did to truly understand the root cause, which has to do with specific metalurgy problems on some of the finger followers combined with the hydraulic lifter/oiling design issue and a certain mix of environmental/use cases.
Sure, Dundon had a solution--an expensive one they would sell us--to their gain. Not that there's anything wrong with capitalism, but ultimately Dundon's claims we're based on, at the very least, incomplete and unjustified conclusions that were convenient to their marketing plan.
oh yeah, and I very much recall the air of superiority attitude of the Dundon rep who continuously suggested during his presentation that Porsche didn't really understand what was happening and Dundon (and he personally) did. Little did he know that Porsche had already figured it out and solved the issue before the 911 R even shipped much earlier.
How many R and RS owners would have shelled out thousands (or tens of thousands) to Dundon to solve (or at least monitor for) a problem that didn't exist but that Dundon claimed they knew did exist based on convenient but flawed conclusions?
If we are to fault Porsche for anything it's not coming forward earlier with what they had learned in their research and proposing this solution sooner. Having said that I am happy with the outcome and I think we should all rejoice.
Sure, Dundon had a solution--an expensive one they would sell us--to their gain. Not that there's anything wrong with capitalism, but ultimately Dundon's claims we're based on, at the very least, incomplete and unjustified conclusions that were convenient to their marketing plan.
oh yeah, and I very much recall the air of superiority attitude of the Dundon rep who continuously suggested during his presentation that Porsche didn't really understand what was happening and Dundon (and he personally) did. Little did he know that Porsche had already figured it out and solved the issue before the 911 R even shipped much earlier.
How many R and RS owners would have shelled out thousands (or tens of thousands) to Dundon to solve (or at least monitor for) a problem that didn't exist but that Dundon claimed they knew did exist based on convenient but flawed conclusions?
If we are to fault Porsche for anything it's not coming forward earlier with what they had learned in their research and proposing this solution sooner. Having said that I am happy with the outcome and I think we should all rejoice.
Sorry you were frightened, wasn't the intent of the Smokies presentation. I think the assertions you present in your post are unfounded, assumptive, derogatory and unfair. The one I'll address is this. I actually remember saying explicitly that I'm sure Porsche does understand the issue as they have infinite resources compared to anyone in the aftermarket and had changed the 991.2 valve train to a solid lash. If you heard otherwise, not sure how...
You're entitled to your opinion of me and of Dundon, but to characterize our intent solely to take advantage of everyones fear and to "grab the money" means you really don't understand what we're about nor spent anytime to discuss this issue with me at all. How much money have we gained from this issue and our efforts... The CAN engine health monitor prototypes were just ordered from the mfg, and the prototype solid lash fingers are also inbound. I've been spending my own money, time and energy on these solutions knowing full well that there was a risk that Porsche offers an extended warranty. Of course the investment was not altruistic, but the wide brush you paint with is a bit lacking in shading.
Dundon's Smokies GT presentation was educational, yes. I appreciated it at the time. But it left me (and others I presume) with an exaggerated sense of doom and gloom that was, ultimately a sales pitch for Dundon's engine monitoring solution, which we now know is ultimately unwarranted, at least for RS's and R's.
I don't think Jamie was misrepresenting his view of the facts, and I think he sincerely believed everything he said. It's just that ultimately, they assumed the only cause of the premature wear was due to the design/architecture and hadn't considered the possibility of a flaw in the manufacture and metallurgy of SOME the finger followers themselves. I remember him saying that DLC coated is better but that it's not a solution and the DLC coating will prematurely wear too because of a fundamental design flaw of the top end of the engine.
As engineers, I think they have a duty to explore all reasonably plausible causes before jumping tonconclusion such as they did, conclusions that not only have the effect of allowing them to promote a product, but more worrying, conclusions that they broadcast to the world that likely contributed to the drop in market values 991.1 GT3's and the actions of some 991.1 GT3 owners who may have sold prematurely to unload what they were lead to believe was an unfixable engine, and those who sold lost money because of it.
I don't think Jamie was misrepresenting his view of the facts, and I think he sincerely believed everything he said. It's just that ultimately, they assumed the only cause of the premature wear was due to the design/architecture and hadn't considered the possibility of a flaw in the manufacture and metallurgy of SOME the finger followers themselves. I remember him saying that DLC coated is better but that it's not a solution and the DLC coating will prematurely wear too because of a fundamental design flaw of the top end of the engine.
As engineers, I think they have a duty to explore all reasonably plausible causes before jumping tonconclusion such as they did, conclusions that not only have the effect of allowing them to promote a product, but more worrying, conclusions that they broadcast to the world that likely contributed to the drop in market values 991.1 GT3's and the actions of some 991.1 GT3 owners who may have sold prematurely to unload what they were lead to believe was an unfixable engine, and those who sold lost money because of it.
I have huge respect for the Dundon team and I don't think they deserve any criticism. Jamie is a fellow GT3 owner and was among the first to provide details about the finger follower wear issue. He participated in discussions with the COG and was extremely helpful in helping us prepare for our meeting. His presentation at the Smokies Event was extremely informative, and I don't think his solution is off base. It was just a different approach, as Porsche was able to develop a solution based on current engine architecture. When we asked Dr. Walliser about the solid lash lifters in the .2 he said the new car is always better than the last one. In addition, Jamie never said that Porsche would not stand behind the issue. He simply presented his solution.
Agree 100 pct!! Had a long chat with Jamie today and they are taking all of this in stride. They are fabulous engineers, great people and have done a lot to help push smokies further with their contributions and sponsorships. They were also invaluable in providing the COG with technical insight as we prepared for the big day.
The whole team at Dundon is top shelf.
The whole team at Dundon is top shelf.
So Dundon was making an effort to figure this out. Why diss them? Who else was other than Porsche and they weren't talking until ....
Porsche probably had ZERO interest in offering an extended warranty until an action group (COG) was formed and made them act.
The documented Macca and Dundon homework played a big part in helping publicize the issue. Have to give credit where it's due.
Porsche probably had ZERO interest in offering an extended warranty until an action group (COG) was formed and made them act.
The documented Macca and Dundon homework played a big part in helping publicize the issue. Have to give credit where it's due.
Agree 100%! Jamie and Dundon are good, super talented people, so let's not turn this into a negative for those guys. They have been huge supporters here. I see a place for their solution on the performance side. Carmen got RS cams put into his GT3, and he said it woke the car right up. So a performance solution with improved followers seems strong to me, especially given Dundon's reputation for high quality work.
Credit to Macca and others for bringing the issue to light
Proud of the COG for obtaining the result they set out for!
__________________
Dundon Motorsports
Gig Harbor, WA
253-200-4454
jamie@dundonmotorsports.com
www.dundonmotorsports.com
Facebook.com/dundonmotorsports
Instagram @dundon_motorsports
Dundon Motorsports
Gig Harbor, WA
253-200-4454
jamie@dundonmotorsports.com
www.dundonmotorsports.com
Facebook.com/dundonmotorsports
Instagram @dundon_motorsports
Last edited by Jamie@dundonmotorsports; 08-08-2017 at 02:25 AM.
08-08-2017, 01:54 AM
#145
Race Director
Thread Starter
Deleted. Photo added to OP.
Last edited by robmypro; 08-10-2017 at 02:40 PM.
08-08-2017, 02:09 AM
#148
As a member of the COG I feel Porsche had known about this problem for some time as they changed the 911R to the new and improved motor, even though it is a 4.0Ltr it has the same architecture as our motors. Every time they plug your car in to the PIWIS they see exactly how your engine is doing as well as how it was driven. This is where they discovered that it was low RPM's that were initiating the problem. Daily drivers were the culprit and they clearly stated they had not tested sufficiently in these RPM ranges. This problem was however more complicated. This is where they found pitting in the finish that accelerated the wear process.
Remember first you must identify the problem and then find a solution to fix it. This all took time and Porsche decided on the best way to handle their customers confidence in the brand. I am sure it is cheaper to just replace the motor instead of having many mechanics with different skill levels do the work. They had total control by having the manufacture just build the engine to spec.
Remember first you must identify the problem and then find a solution to fix it. This all took time and Porsche decided on the best way to handle their customers confidence in the brand. I am sure it is cheaper to just replace the motor instead of having many mechanics with different skill levels do the work. They had total control by having the manufacture just build the engine to spec.
Last edited by SmokinGTS; 08-08-2017 at 02:26 AM. Reason: any
08-08-2017, 02:18 AM
#149
One more, Porsche by law must inform the owners of their cars anytime the terms and conditions change on their warranty. All GT3 owners will get a letter explaining the new terms.
