Percent of MSRP for 2009 987S
11-08-2009, 04:36 PM
#47
Race Director
“The cars were listed as used cause that's what the seller enters. I checked out enough to find out they were new cars with sometimes just a few miles over delivery miles. The number of miles listed in the ad was what caught my eye. To find a used car with sometimes less than 10 miles on its odometer is well rare. My research found too many of these and their existence told me all I need to know about the Boxster market at that time and told me that instead of dealing with used cars offered by private sellers who were clearly not current on the market value of their used Boxsters -- many no doubt sold on the idea that buying one was an "investment" -- I would be better off trying to buy a new one. Which I managed to do with around a $5K discount from MSRP.”
Again, a “used car” has to have a title which has been assigned to an individual. A deal can not advertise a car as “used” if it still have the COO and not a title. Also all Porsche come into the state with right around 10 miles on them already and if they have been sitting on a dealers lot for any amount of time then they’re going to have a lot more. Your research is flawed since by law a dealer can not sell a car as “used” unless the title has been issued to someone other than a dealer. There is no advantage to that for a dealer and no franchise Porsche dealer would risk breaking the law.
” Earlier this year when I was again in the new Porsche market my searches turned up a large number of 2008 "demos". I looked at some cars and again some had very low miles, down in the single digits in a few case, though a few had more miles, enough so to perhaps justify the demo label.”
The same thing applies here, once its punched as a demo then it’s a demo not anything else and sure there are still some 2008’s around which are punched as demos. That means the dealer got assistance from Porsche on their cost and the warranty has already started. The miles again will not be single digits, since they come in most of the time with more than single digits and if they have been sitting around they would have been moved around and test driven and so forth. You wont find a 2009 around with single digits right now.
“As for dealer markup there can always be mark up. I walked into a GMC/Buick dealer back when GMC dealers were closing left and right and came upon a new Buick with a huge ADM. Hey, if someone doesn't know the car market someone can pay that price for a car. I've seen ADM's tacked on to Porsches too.”
Buick’ going for higher then MSRP LOL sorry but not in this market. Porsche does not allow its franchised dealers to sell above MSRP. Now some dealers will punch the car and then mark it up but not anytime recently and with the proliferation of dealers over the past 10 years the only mark up has been on the really limited cars like GT3, GT2 etc. What a GMC dealer does is meaningless and we all know they’re not selling domestic cars with markup these days or in 2008.
“As for the 0.87 of MSRP for invoice that was a number passed around way back in 02 and I and other buyers used it with good results. It may be more. It may be less. If someone can come up with a better number then a shopper can use that number."
The depreciation formula is what it is. As I mentioned various factors can play a role, do play a role to soften the price slide or accelerate it. Try selling a Chrysler or Saturn or Pontiac used car now.”
There is no formula for depreciation and what appeared to work in 2002 really has no influence on what the market is like in 2009. We’re not talking about those domestic makes and their depreciation has nothing to do with the way a new Porsche might depreciate.
” Take your nice shiny new car to a car broker and have him quote you a price to buy your car right now cash and he'll quote you a price based on the current auction market price. My advice unless you want to be seriously depressed avoid doing this. Ignoring the smoke and mirrors that come into play when trading in a car for a new car what the broker quotes you is very close to what the car is worth.”
What kind of smoke and mirrors are you talking about? Do you think anyone in their right mind thinks they would buy a car, then drive it off the lot once its been titled and punched and expect to get what they paid for it right away?
” Many a car maker learned the hard way just what cars were worth when lease return cars were coming back and the residual was way below what had been used when the lease was written.”
That’s true except you got it backwards. Many of the manufacturer’s financial arms mispriced the markets in their residuals and the residual price of the lease was much higher than the cars real value in the open market. Many manufacturers put pressure on their financial subsidiaries to do that in order to move product. There is nothing new about that and not too much unlike a ponzi scheme for them they were able to keep it sustained by moving more and move product. When the sales dried up they got caught holding the bag. Fortunately for Porsche they have never had to get out of the leasing game and were pretty good at controlling price until 2009. What does this have to do with your original points or the point of the tread?
No offense but you have a number of facts wrong, good discussion though!
Thanks
Again, a “used car” has to have a title which has been assigned to an individual. A deal can not advertise a car as “used” if it still have the COO and not a title. Also all Porsche come into the state with right around 10 miles on them already and if they have been sitting on a dealers lot for any amount of time then they’re going to have a lot more. Your research is flawed since by law a dealer can not sell a car as “used” unless the title has been issued to someone other than a dealer. There is no advantage to that for a dealer and no franchise Porsche dealer would risk breaking the law.
” Earlier this year when I was again in the new Porsche market my searches turned up a large number of 2008 "demos". I looked at some cars and again some had very low miles, down in the single digits in a few case, though a few had more miles, enough so to perhaps justify the demo label.”
The same thing applies here, once its punched as a demo then it’s a demo not anything else and sure there are still some 2008’s around which are punched as demos. That means the dealer got assistance from Porsche on their cost and the warranty has already started. The miles again will not be single digits, since they come in most of the time with more than single digits and if they have been sitting around they would have been moved around and test driven and so forth. You wont find a 2009 around with single digits right now.
“As for dealer markup there can always be mark up. I walked into a GMC/Buick dealer back when GMC dealers were closing left and right and came upon a new Buick with a huge ADM. Hey, if someone doesn't know the car market someone can pay that price for a car. I've seen ADM's tacked on to Porsches too.”
Buick’ going for higher then MSRP LOL sorry but not in this market. Porsche does not allow its franchised dealers to sell above MSRP. Now some dealers will punch the car and then mark it up but not anytime recently and with the proliferation of dealers over the past 10 years the only mark up has been on the really limited cars like GT3, GT2 etc. What a GMC dealer does is meaningless and we all know they’re not selling domestic cars with markup these days or in 2008.
“As for the 0.87 of MSRP for invoice that was a number passed around way back in 02 and I and other buyers used it with good results. It may be more. It may be less. If someone can come up with a better number then a shopper can use that number."
The depreciation formula is what it is. As I mentioned various factors can play a role, do play a role to soften the price slide or accelerate it. Try selling a Chrysler or Saturn or Pontiac used car now.”
There is no formula for depreciation and what appeared to work in 2002 really has no influence on what the market is like in 2009. We’re not talking about those domestic makes and their depreciation has nothing to do with the way a new Porsche might depreciate.
” Take your nice shiny new car to a car broker and have him quote you a price to buy your car right now cash and he'll quote you a price based on the current auction market price. My advice unless you want to be seriously depressed avoid doing this. Ignoring the smoke and mirrors that come into play when trading in a car for a new car what the broker quotes you is very close to what the car is worth.”
What kind of smoke and mirrors are you talking about? Do you think anyone in their right mind thinks they would buy a car, then drive it off the lot once its been titled and punched and expect to get what they paid for it right away?
” Many a car maker learned the hard way just what cars were worth when lease return cars were coming back and the residual was way below what had been used when the lease was written.”
That’s true except you got it backwards. Many of the manufacturer’s financial arms mispriced the markets in their residuals and the residual price of the lease was much higher than the cars real value in the open market. Many manufacturers put pressure on their financial subsidiaries to do that in order to move product. There is nothing new about that and not too much unlike a ponzi scheme for them they were able to keep it sustained by moving more and move product. When the sales dried up they got caught holding the bag. Fortunately for Porsche they have never had to get out of the leasing game and were pretty good at controlling price until 2009. What does this have to do with your original points or the point of the tread?
No offense but you have a number of facts wrong, good discussion though!
Thanks
The cars had no license plate and were not treated like used cars displayed out in amongst the other used cars, but were on the new car floor. Even pristine used cars -- I looked at a used 02 Carrera with just a thousand miles on it that could have passed for new -- ignoring the licence plate and miles on the odometer -- and it was parked out in the used car area snow and ice over it like all the other used cars. (Salesman told me the used Carrera's story: Car bought by a person who also ordered a Turbo and was driven by her until her Turbo arrived. When the Turbo arrived she traded in the Carrera. Must be nice...)
For the "used" cars I never bothered to try to buy any of these cars so they may have been found to new as I suspected they were, new in that they had never been registered.
I'll note my 02 Boxster, the one I ended up buying, was stored in an underground parking faciity located under the dealer's building. A parking facility that I didn't even know about until I followed the saleman down and down some more thinking why was he taking me to the basement? Once there though he pointed out many new cars I could select from. The few cars up on the showroom were just the tip of the iceberg.
And more recently -- earlier this year -- I visited a dealer looking for a Cayman and he told me of one but I told him I had not seen it on the lot. Told me it as in a barn nearby. We got in Cayenne and drove a block or so, through a gate he had to unlock and stopped at well nearly a barn like building. Inside were 20 or more kind of dusty but otherwise brand new Porsches: Boxsters, Caymans and even Carreras. All new. All dusty. All for sale. And with red tag signs indicating the new sale price or discount price.
What I learned was dealers were overstocked with cars and to the point they were finding "creative" ways to offer them at a discount without at least on the surface appearing to offer them at a discount, I decided I could probably swing a good deal on a new car, which I did.
More recently, earlier this year when I was shopping for a new car, Cayman, there were too many "demos" being listed and with very very low miles. Too low of miles to be a real demo based on my experience.
Dealers have gotten away from even supplying new Porsches as loaners to save money and no dealer will stock a fleet of "demos" cause while a shopper will certainly take a demo for a ride he'll want an undriven car to buy or will order a car. The dealer gradually sees its demo fleet racking up the miles and lowering their resale value.
Anyhow, the cars I was serious about were all punched. (In one case, I was just about to the buy the car and asked and the salesman made a big show of going off for this info and then coming back and admitting the car was indeed punched. I had already suspected as much given the discount and based on my looking at cars at other dealers where the salesman were much more forthcoming with the car's status: punched or not punched.)
The cars were punched by the factory, to get the warranty clock running cause the dealer reported the car sold. Dealers apparently do this for why I do not know but a WAG is to improve their sales numbers to qualify for more cars or some factory to dealer incentive tied with the number of cars the dealer has "sold", or reported sold.
Sure no one buys a car then turns around to get its resale value cause that's not what's on the new car buyer's mind. But it doesn't change fact that the car depreciates considerably the moment it is bought and driven away. The seller/bank has the deposit and of course legal recourse should the buyer not be able to pay for the car so this knowledge of what a car loses in value at its time of sale is not often known. But it doesn't make it any less a fact.
Getting back on track earlier this year there were exceptional deals to be had on left over 08 cars. I was offered new 08 Cabs at $30K off sticker. Similar discounts on other models.
I bought an 08 Cayman S in early April this year and found in mid May when I was once again in the car market cause the Cayman was destroyed that while there were still some 08 Caymans available the lower priced cars had gone. There were some $70K+ Caymans heavily discounted down nearly $20K but optioned not the way I wanted.
When I rejected the 08s many dealer offered me a 09 Cayman S at a pretty good discount. I was tempted by one dealer who found me an 09 Cayman S, in SY, with DFI engine, 6-speed manual, located at what I believe to be some storage yard in AZ. Said all I had to do was say the word and he'd have car trucked up here for me.
Was still awaiting settlement check from the other driver's insurance company so I declined to say the word.
When the money did arrive I had gotten the Turbo bug and ended up buying a Turbo instead of another Cayman S.
I still see some leftover 08s on lots. Caymans, Boxsters, and Carreras. One dealer has many, but appears to have stopped shouting about them. I hear this dealership is being offered for sale but there are no takers. Owner is very very rich and can afford to wait until he can find a buyer or until market can pick up so he and his dealership management not hard pressed to firesale these left over cars off the lot.
But still I think one could swing a real good deal if he were in the market.
Lastly, I like to remember this: Everything a car salesman tells you is intended to get you to pay as much for the car as possible and to buy as soon as possible.
I do not sell cars for a living or a hobby. I'm just offering my experiences in seeking out what I feel to be good deals on recent offerings to others.
In buying several cars since 07 I have managed to buy way under sticker and have believed I've done about as well as I can. I'm sure others can do better though. I know that I did better than some -- helped in some way by their posting their experiences which added in some way to my price knowledge -- and worse than others. But when I sign on the dotted line I'm happy with what I've bought the car for, knowing I've done as good as I could have given what I know at the time.
Sincerely,
Macster.
11-09-2009, 11:43 AM
#48
License plates are meaningless, there are laws and PCNA rules which determine what a used car is and what is a demo. A used car is a car which has been titled to someone other than a dealer. No dealer is going to risk playing games with that law or the PCNA rules, there is nothing to be gained in that. A DEMO is a car which a dealer has punched, the miles up to a certain level is irrelevant, the warranty starts and PCNA treats it as a demo adding or taking away any incentives to the dealer.
Storage facilities have no bearing whatsoever on how a car is classified. I have no idea what you mean with the statement…
“What I learned was dealers were overstocked with cars and to the point they were finding "creative" ways to offer them at a discount without at least on the surface appearing to offer them at a discount,”
Some dealers have stock and some don’t, where they store them again has no bearing whatsoever on how the car is legally listed as demo or used.
Many dealers punch new cars and put them in service as a loaner, in fact PCNA has a special classification for a “service loaner” and there are both special incentive money for the dealer on those cars and rules for amortizing the depreciation for later sale so as to establish a legal cost basis for the car. When a dealer punches a car as a “service loaner” he needs to use it as one and there has to be miles and time on it in order for him to be able to write it down and sell it later.
There are still 08 Cayman’s around which are heavily discounted and optioned cars. There are 09 Cayman S’s around all of them come standard with DFI motors and 6 speed gear boxes. NONE are in “storage” yards, they are all in other dealer’s inventory and any Porsche dealer can go into the PPN system and see which dealer has what in inventory, just like I do for clients all the time. Every single car that comes into the country is in a dealer’s inventory from the moment it hits the ground. When they come to port a dealer can elect to have it stay at port for a period of time if he has space issues but its part of his inventory. There is no PCNA facility in Az. All anyone has to do is walk into a dealer and if they don’t have the car he wants he can find the car around the country work a DX with the dealer who has it in inventory and have it trucked to his dealership.
“I like to remember this: Everything a car salesman tells you is intended to get you to pay as much for the car as possible and to buy as soon as possible.”
Just like every other profession in the world there are good people and crappy people who do the job. Some sales people operate under that principle and some don’t and throwing that blanket statement out is naive and uninformed.
Since getting into the business a year ago and having been a rennlisters for many years I have helped dozens of people here get better deals, locate which dealer has the car they want and helped in many ways to clear up wrong statements and opinions which are just not true about how PCNA works, what the rules are governing demo/used/cpo and all other cars. Some of the opinions you present here are just flat out not correct in their factual content.
Storage facilities have no bearing whatsoever on how a car is classified. I have no idea what you mean with the statement…
“What I learned was dealers were overstocked with cars and to the point they were finding "creative" ways to offer them at a discount without at least on the surface appearing to offer them at a discount,”
Some dealers have stock and some don’t, where they store them again has no bearing whatsoever on how the car is legally listed as demo or used.
Many dealers punch new cars and put them in service as a loaner, in fact PCNA has a special classification for a “service loaner” and there are both special incentive money for the dealer on those cars and rules for amortizing the depreciation for later sale so as to establish a legal cost basis for the car. When a dealer punches a car as a “service loaner” he needs to use it as one and there has to be miles and time on it in order for him to be able to write it down and sell it later.
There are still 08 Cayman’s around which are heavily discounted and optioned cars. There are 09 Cayman S’s around all of them come standard with DFI motors and 6 speed gear boxes. NONE are in “storage” yards, they are all in other dealer’s inventory and any Porsche dealer can go into the PPN system and see which dealer has what in inventory, just like I do for clients all the time. Every single car that comes into the country is in a dealer’s inventory from the moment it hits the ground. When they come to port a dealer can elect to have it stay at port for a period of time if he has space issues but its part of his inventory. There is no PCNA facility in Az. All anyone has to do is walk into a dealer and if they don’t have the car he wants he can find the car around the country work a DX with the dealer who has it in inventory and have it trucked to his dealership.
“I like to remember this: Everything a car salesman tells you is intended to get you to pay as much for the car as possible and to buy as soon as possible.”
Just like every other profession in the world there are good people and crappy people who do the job. Some sales people operate under that principle and some don’t and throwing that blanket statement out is naive and uninformed.
Since getting into the business a year ago and having been a rennlisters for many years I have helped dozens of people here get better deals, locate which dealer has the car they want and helped in many ways to clear up wrong statements and opinions which are just not true about how PCNA works, what the rules are governing demo/used/cpo and all other cars. Some of the opinions you present here are just flat out not correct in their factual content.
11-15-2009, 01:46 PM
#49
Race Director
My comments about the storing were intended to show that one can't go by what one sees on the lot for an accurate count of how many cars a dealer might have for sale. And how many cars and how fast or not as the case may be they're moving is important to help develop a feel for the market and thus a price.
BTW, I see where a local Porsche dealership (Carlsen of Redwood City, CA) has just put out an ad offering for sale ($54,995 for an 08 Cayman S demo (and $39995 for an 08 Boxster demo) so if the OP is still reading this there are stil some 08 demos to be had.
Sincerely,
Macster.
BTW, I see where a local Porsche dealership (Carlsen of Redwood City, CA) has just put out an ad offering for sale ($54,995 for an 08 Cayman S demo (and $39995 for an 08 Boxster demo) so if the OP is still reading this there are stil some 08 demos to be had.
Sincerely,
Macster.
11-18-2009, 11:31 AM
#50
There are a number of 08 demo's left all over the country. Many dealers just dont have the real estate to show every single car on their primary lot. We have a huge warehouse and lot just around the corner. Real estate in prime selling areas is expensive. They sure have all the inventory on line. Talking about 2008's there is no mystery, sure the dealers would like to unload them but they're probably at this point willing to wait for the right buyer.
