FTS

Marc:

Welcome to the forums, I hope the new business flurishes quickly, we certainly enjoyed what you guys have done with the Turner cars; best of luck.

mooty

Simply put, a Porsche is alot easier to make fast on the track than a BMW is. You can make a BMW into a seriously fast track/race car, but at that point it's so far removed from a street car that it's unreal. A Porsche can be a seriously fast track/race car with many fewer mods, that is why, in near road form, the Porsche is far superior.
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took the words right out of my mount, but more eloquently.

cgomez

For reference purposes, a OEM Cayman S (PASM) with GT3 Cup control arms is as fast around Watkins Glen and LimeRock with similar drivers as a E46M3 with:

BBK Brembos (BMW OEM brakes are good for 1/2 a lap!)
Coilovers DAs
Swaybars
etc..

My 997S with just the extra camber is even faster, and by far more comfortable as a daily driver than such M3 and far much more fun at the track.

The P-Cars are true sportcars, the M3 is still a sedan (a wel setup'd one though).

However, the term "truck" is relative.... My 997S is very fast "Truck" compared to my Lotus Elise. Despite the latter being "slower" it is the MOST fun at the track of the two.

mooty

you too? i thought i was hard on brakes.
another rennlister got very pissed off (to put it mildly) last weekend at LS when his MZ4 cpe had binder issues.




noted. i didn't say trucks are slow, i was referring to the "feel".
btw, at LS my buddy dusted me in his elise by almost 2 seconds......
it was the last session, else i would have gone out to seek revenge LOL.
he's on RA1 with nitrons.

gps-marc

yeah, well, you can make the M3/Z4M brakes work on the track with PFC pads and serious ducting, we did in in our SCCA T2 car at 3500lb. That car had Ohlins 3 way adjustable shocks, and SCCA mandated T2 springs and sway bars. The thing would get around some tracks pretty quickly, 2.11's at the Glen, and 1.38's at Road Atlanta on Toyos...but, it was a plowing pig.

tkarwin

From the comments I am assuming the original poster will be using race tires when out on the track. I had the chance to drive a Cayman S w/ Michelin PS2s, the stock tire for the car, emediately followed by driving the Pilot Sport Cup tire. Both cars had PASM and I felt that the car with the cup tires felt a little overwhelmed by the drip they provided. I would recommend a coilover setup if you plan to yuse more than a street tire. Besides, the Cayman needs to be lowered (for looks) even with PASM!

pstoppani

I run H&R springs with PASM and find it quite suitable; especially since it is my daily driver which I don't really want optimized for the track. With this setup, the car is superb at the track and superb on the street.

nkhalidi

This point is amazingly strong, and it's worth being quoted again. I had an E46 M3 with full TCK/Koni suspension and Stoptechs. I loved the BMW's 50/50 weight distribution and handling beyond the limit of adhesion, but little else. At Sebring, I beat my fastest r-comp M3 time with my then-bone-stock, street-tire 997S.

The lack of LSD hasn't been an issue for me, but Sebring only has one really tight turn, and I don't notice the absence.

The Cayman S is a fantastic car for both street and track; I would've ordered one if I could get it with a 3.8 motor.

Jastx

I'm surprised to see M Car owners not even mentioning the new M Coupe and MZ4. The latest issue of Autoweek has an interesting comparison of the M Coupe and the Cayman S on the road and on the track. Their opinion differs from the other magazine comparos I have seen on the two...they found the M Coupe to be much better on the track than the Cayman but the Cayman better on the road.

teamsketch

Also coming from an E46 M3 I too was upset about the lack of an LSD. So far in the dry it has not made much of a difference (no track use yet), but in the wet it is a whole different story. I had gotten used to drifting the M3 fairly consistently around right hand turns. Now with the Cayman I find the mid engine layout and the lack of an LSD to be a recipe for disaster when trying to "throw and catch". I may stick to my E36 M3 for that style of driving until quaife releases a gear driven LSD that is less than the other options currently available.

On another note I am also looking at upgrading the springs on my PASM Cayman. Does anyone know the spring rates for stock vs. H&R or others?

nkhalidi

1) Autoweek never mentioned either car's brakes. Objectively, the Porsche's brakes are FAR superior to the BMW's. See the above post about someone cooking an MZ4's brakes within 2 laps.

2) That analysis is likely based on tossing the cars around beyond the limit of adhesion, where the BMW is inherently easier to control (front engine, rear drive) and more predictable while sliding. If anyone were to drive more than 10 laps in either car, I'm quite sure he'd opt for the Porsche over the BMW.

3) Almost nobody's mentioned the Z4 M Coupe because BMW hard parts are objectively inferior to Porsche hard parts. Hard parts mean wheel bearings, brakes, steering mechanisms, clutches, wheels, etc. I had 22k miles on my M3 when I sold it; it had gone through two sets of front wheel bearings, a set of rear wheel bearings, completely new brakes, new bushings everywhere, the list goes on. Simply put, the BMW was an excellent, fun, fast street car. It's not a track car.

I'd argue that NO modern BMWs are decent track cars when stock, whereas every new Porsche sports car can go to the track, click off at least 10 worry-free laps in bone-stock condition, and go home none worse for the wear. Try that in a new BMW.

That said, if I could get a TCK Z4 M Coupe with big brakes, carbon body panels, etc. from the factory, I'd buy one. But I can't, and I'm not willing to heavily modify another car for the track. Porsche makes it easy for us: want something harder-core than a Carrera S? Buy a GT3. Not enough? Get a GT3 RS. Still not? Go for a Cup. Need even more speed? GT3 RSR. And if you still need more, call a race team, because at that point you're expected to win Le Mans.

elh0102

Well, the subjective part is easy. For me, the new M Coupe is an ugly car. But since I am big on performance over aesthetics, I would still consider one if it were a hands down better performer, but it's not. In stock form, it is probably a bit more neutral in its balance than my E46 M3, but I believe it would still have considerably too much understeer for me. And I'm through rebuilding cars for casual track use; just not worth it. I believe either a Cayman S or a Carrera S would suit my needs without modification.

pstoppani

That Autoweek article was quite weak (pun intended); they didn't provide anything other than opinion for the track driving; no lap times for crying out loud! They provide figures for everything else! I would say their opinion does match that of other articles that the M Coupe is more involving at the track; due to it's character flaws Which is fine, but at least the other mags show that the Cayman S is actually faster, if less involving. Get an older 911 if you want involving