987.2S (Mostly) Track Car Suspension
06-29-2020, 06:02 PM
#31
I would have guess you need more than $600 in new parts. (Top mounts with monoball at the very least, and adjustable drop links and rear toe arms if you don't already have them.)
The cost should include corner balance also ($300-500 on top of alignment?), which is needed for all shocks that are height adjustable.
Just be mindful that monoballs + spring rate > 400/500 lbs makes the car bone jarring unless you are on really smooth road. It's definitely "drivable" but it's not enjoyable.
(I had 450/500-ish then 600/800 with JRZ RS Pros and the only "driving" I did was to and back from the shop when I am too lazy to load it on the trailer. And this is despite keeping stock rubber bushing on my GT3 LCAs.)
Also monoballs wear out frequently (not to say rubber mounts don't - just that when monoballs go your car is immediately not driveable) so budget in additional shop cost too. The monoballs themselves are very cheap.
Hope this helps and enjoy!
The cost should include corner balance also ($300-500 on top of alignment?), which is needed for all shocks that are height adjustable.
Just be mindful that monoballs + spring rate > 400/500 lbs makes the car bone jarring unless you are on really smooth road. It's definitely "drivable" but it's not enjoyable.
(I had 450/500-ish then 600/800 with JRZ RS Pros and the only "driving" I did was to and back from the shop when I am too lazy to load it on the trailer. And this is despite keeping stock rubber bushing on my GT3 LCAs.)
Also monoballs wear out frequently (not to say rubber mounts don't - just that when monoballs go your car is immediately not driveable) so budget in additional shop cost too. The monoballs themselves are very cheap.
Hope this helps and enjoy!
I would recommend saving up to do everything at once. At a minimum, you will need new end links to adjust the rear toe as stock will be insufficient on a lower car. You’ll also need front and rear adjustable drop links (tarett makes extended ones that are specific to Ohlins/MCS/JRZ dampers). You’ll also want the top hats as mentioned above to complete the package (i know JRZ has a package that comes with the metal top hats, not sure about the others).
The only items that I would say are optional are the front tie rods and the front and rear sway bars. But when you start adding it all up, those parts are a drop in the bucket compared to the whole package and really round it off. Because the whole thing is disassembled anyway, you won’t really see any increase in labor costs so it is just parts. Plus, it will save you from having to take everything apart in the future if you want to upgrade to a more adjustable setup. For me it was the ‘while you’re in there syndrome’ and I just wanted to rip off the band aid because I knew that it would be more costly in terms of labor to make incremental upgrades than doing it all at once.
Of course, it is easy to spend other people’s money and when you start adding it all together with labor, corner balance and alignment you will likely be over $10k no matter which dampers you choose. That being said, the results speak for themselves.
Hope that helps
06-29-2020, 06:17 PM
#32
Totally agree with everything said here. I don’t find the higher spring rates (600/800 on mine) to be terrible on road with the dampers set to the softer settings and i have 19’’ wheels with the CF bucket seats. I guess that is just personal preference.
I would recommend saving up to do everything at once. At a minimum, you will need new end links to adjust the rear toe as stock will be insufficient on a lower car. You’ll also need front and rear adjustable drop links (tarett makes extended ones that are specific to Ohlins/MCS/JRZ dampers). You’ll also want the top hats as mentioned above to complete the package (i know JRZ has a package that comes with the metal top hats, not sure about the others).
The only items that I would say are optional are the front tie rods and the front and rear sway bars. But when you start adding it all up, those parts are a drop in the bucket compared to the whole package and really round it off. Because the whole thing is disassembled anyway, you won’t really see any increase in labor costs so it is just parts. Plus, it will save you from having to take everything apart in the future if you want to upgrade to a more adjustable setup. For me it was the ‘while you’re in there syndrome’ and I just wanted to rip off the band aid because I knew that it would be more costly in terms of labor to make incremental upgrades than doing it all at once.
Of course, it is easy to spend other people’s money and when you start adding it all together with labor, corner balance and alignment you will likely be over $10k no matter which dampers you choose. That being said, the results speak for themselves.
Hope that helps
I would recommend saving up to do everything at once. At a minimum, you will need new end links to adjust the rear toe as stock will be insufficient on a lower car. You’ll also need front and rear adjustable drop links (tarett makes extended ones that are specific to Ohlins/MCS/JRZ dampers). You’ll also want the top hats as mentioned above to complete the package (i know JRZ has a package that comes with the metal top hats, not sure about the others).
The only items that I would say are optional are the front tie rods and the front and rear sway bars. But when you start adding it all up, those parts are a drop in the bucket compared to the whole package and really round it off. Because the whole thing is disassembled anyway, you won’t really see any increase in labor costs so it is just parts. Plus, it will save you from having to take everything apart in the future if you want to upgrade to a more adjustable setup. For me it was the ‘while you’re in there syndrome’ and I just wanted to rip off the band aid because I knew that it would be more costly in terms of labor to make incremental upgrades than doing it all at once.
Of course, it is easy to spend other people’s money and when you start adding it all together with labor, corner balance and alignment you will likely be over $10k no matter which dampers you choose. That being said, the results speak for themselves.
Hope that helps
I am talking to a dealer for MCS. Pretty sure I am going to get the 1 way dampers. I figure this will be cheaper in the long run. I don't want to pour a bunch of money into the car only to realize the Ohlins weren't the right system for me, since I plan on becoming a member at the local track and going more frequently than just 1 weekend a month. And it sounds like the MCS dampers are the best value in the next rung of JRZ, Moton, MCS, etc.
thanks everybody for the guidance.
06-29-2020, 06:22 PM
#33
06-30-2020, 06:38 PM
#34
I installed Ohlins R&T two years ago, just after they were released for the Cayman use. Six months later added the Tarett Cup LCA's with Tarett GT swaybars f&r. This combo really livened up my car. I use 10 clicks for daily drives and 4-5 clicks for smooth tracks. With the corner balance my car is lowered 34 mm on the drivers side and 36 mm on the passenger side. I weight 200 lbs, so with me in the car the cross weights are within 1%. The stardard spring rate of 400 lb/in f and 458 lb/in is about right for my use. 80% daily and 20% track/canyon usage. I have three sets of wheels/tires to give some selection to my activities. Not sure I would want any more spring rate in f but could have a little more in the rear, maybe 500 lb/in. I would suggest new top hats when installing your Ohlins as they can wear out. Camber plates usually have a monoball bearing, which can wear and rattle.
I use three wheel/tire sets, one is Hoosier A7's, 255/35/18 f and 275/35/18 r, which specify upgraded suspension parts in their tire care and safety guidelines. "The Hoosier tires typically offer better performance with spring/shock rates higher than previous brands you may have run". The Ohlin R&T seem to work well this this application as do the Tarett Cup LCA's for -2.9 camber f and -2.5 r. Hoosier's ask for -3.0 f camber to keep the outside shoulders from premature wear. The Tarett GT swaybars also work well to keep" the roll controlled f & r to allow a slightly lower air pressure to be used resulting in a larger tire sweet spot and greater control at the limit."
Another set is RE71R's, 255/35/18 f and 275/35/18 r. These tires really work well as a good all around race tire. They fit the suspension setup just fine and the balance f to r is about the same as with the Hoosier A7's. They are my fall back as if there is a potential for rain, I simply cannot transit on the freeways with my Hoosiers in the rain, although they do seem to grip nicely on the track in light NW rain . Lastly, my daily drivers are Michelin PS4S, 255/35/18 f and 275/35/18 r. They work well on rainy track days and as daily drivers.
I use three wheel/tire sets, one is Hoosier A7's, 255/35/18 f and 275/35/18 r, which specify upgraded suspension parts in their tire care and safety guidelines. "The Hoosier tires typically offer better performance with spring/shock rates higher than previous brands you may have run". The Ohlin R&T seem to work well this this application as do the Tarett Cup LCA's for -2.9 camber f and -2.5 r. Hoosier's ask for -3.0 f camber to keep the outside shoulders from premature wear. The Tarett GT swaybars also work well to keep" the roll controlled f & r to allow a slightly lower air pressure to be used resulting in a larger tire sweet spot and greater control at the limit."
Another set is RE71R's, 255/35/18 f and 275/35/18 r. These tires really work well as a good all around race tire. They fit the suspension setup just fine and the balance f to r is about the same as with the Hoosier A7's. They are my fall back as if there is a potential for rain, I simply cannot transit on the freeways with my Hoosiers in the rain, although they do seem to grip nicely on the track in light NW rain . Lastly, my daily drivers are Michelin PS4S, 255/35/18 f and 275/35/18 r. They work well on rainy track days and as daily drivers.
Last edited by Apex1; 07-02-2020 at 11:32 PM.
07-01-2020, 02:32 PM
#35
I installed Ohlins R&T two years ago, just after they were released for the Cayman use. Six months later added the Tarett Cup LCA's with Tarett GT swaybars f&r. This combo really livened up my car. I use 10 clicks for daily drives and 4-5 clicks for smooth tracks. With the corner balance my car is lowered 34 mm on the drivers side and 36 mm on the passenger side. I weight 200 lbs, so with me in the car the cross weights are within 1%. The stardard spring rate of 400 lb/in f and 458 lb/in is about right for my use. 80% daily and 20% track/canyon usage. I have three sets of wheels/tires to give some selection to my activities. Not sure I would want any more spring rate in f but could have a little more in the rear, maybe 500 lb/in. I would suggest new top hats or camber plates as these coilovers put a lot of thrust on the top bearings.
07-02-2020, 11:21 PM
#36
Wanted to give a shout out to Brian at Euro Parts West. He's been super responsive and helpful in building every part of my suspension set up. MCS allows for a lot of customization and the assistance is valuable. If you don't have an MCS dealer in your city, work with Brian.
Last edited by Rmag911; 07-03-2020 at 01:31 AM. Reason: spelling
11-11-2020, 01:22 PM
#39
I've gotten everything installed, but I am having trouble getting everything dialed in to my liking.
Current set up:
MCS 1 way dampers
-3 degrees f and -2.5 degrees rear of camber
Tarrett sway bars on the softest settings front and rear.
monoball camber plates
GT3 LCAs
Here are a few things I am struggling with
I expected a much bigger jump in performance from my Bilstein B8 and springs set up. I'm assuming I'm overlooking something in my setup.
Current set up:
MCS 1 way dampers
-3 degrees f and -2.5 degrees rear of camber
Tarrett sway bars on the softest settings front and rear.
monoball camber plates
GT3 LCAs
Here are a few things I am struggling with
- Car feels oddly wobbly at higher speeds. And it actually feels softer than it did before. Out of the 18 clicks of rebound, I have the car at about 12-14; otherwise the car feels too soft. PO installed the prior lowering springs so I am not sure what they were. Curren springs are 600#f and 700# rear. did I go too soft with the spring rate?
- I am getting a ton of understeer mid-corner to corner exit on all slow/tight corners. I had the front sway bar set to medium and dropped it to soft, and that seemed to improve the understeer. But it is still a problem.
- I am also getting oversteer late corner, but I'd rather have that than the understeer, since I can modulate it a bit more with my throttle input.
I expected a much bigger jump in performance from my Bilstein B8 and springs set up. I'm assuming I'm overlooking something in my setup.
11-11-2020, 02:17 PM
#40
I've gotten everything installed, but I am having trouble getting everything dialed in to my liking.
Current set up:
MCS 1 way dampers
-3 degrees f and -2.5 degrees rear of camber
Tarrett sway bars on the softest settings front and rear.
monoball camber plates
GT3 LCAs
Here are a few things I am struggling with
I expected a much bigger jump in performance from my Bilstein B8 and springs set up. I'm assuming I'm overlooking something in my setup.
Current set up:
MCS 1 way dampers
-3 degrees f and -2.5 degrees rear of camber
Tarrett sway bars on the softest settings front and rear.
monoball camber plates
GT3 LCAs
Here are a few things I am struggling with
- Car feels oddly wobbly at higher speeds. And it actually feels softer than it did before. Out of the 18 clicks of rebound, I have the car at about 12-14; otherwise the car feels too soft. PO installed the prior lowering springs so I am not sure what they were. Curren springs are 600#f and 700# rear. did I go too soft with the spring rate?
- I am getting a ton of understeer mid-corner to corner exit on all slow/tight corners. I had the front sway bar set to medium and dropped it to soft, and that seemed to improve the understeer. But it is still a problem.
- I am also getting oversteer late corner, but I'd rather have that than the understeer, since I can modulate it a bit more with my throttle input.
I expected a much bigger jump in performance from my Bilstein B8 and springs set up. I'm assuming I'm overlooking something in my setup.
Your sway bar settings are contributing to your mid corner (steady-state) car characteristics, I would play with these a bit to get the balance right relative to your taste. I would not run the bars on the softest settings, I have my front at the mid way line and the rear at the second softest, for comparison.
And finally - most of this is a crapshoot, I have no idea how experienced of a driver you are, if this is due to poor inputs, etc. But assuming you are doing everything right - I would start with the above ^ Have you reached out to MCS to get recommended settings?
11-11-2020, 04:05 PM
#41
Your rates are fine, damping is more important. I would suggest turning them up a bit more (assuming you are doing track driving here).
Your sway bar settings are contributing to your mid corner (steady-state) car characteristics, I would play with these a bit to get the balance right relative to your taste. I would not run the bars on the softest settings, I have my front at the mid way line and the rear at the second softest, for comparison.
And finally - most of this is a crapshoot, I have no idea how experienced of a driver you are, if this is due to poor inputs, etc. But assuming you are doing everything right - I would start with the above ^ Have you reached out to MCS to get recommended settings?
Your sway bar settings are contributing to your mid corner (steady-state) car characteristics, I would play with these a bit to get the balance right relative to your taste. I would not run the bars on the softest settings, I have my front at the mid way line and the rear at the second softest, for comparison.
And finally - most of this is a crapshoot, I have no idea how experienced of a driver you are, if this is due to poor inputs, etc. But assuming you are doing everything right - I would start with the above ^ Have you reached out to MCS to get recommended settings?
I suppose it could be driver error, though I never had these issues on my old 997. And while I had some understeer when I switched over to the cayman (on the prior suspension), all thee upgrades have significantly increased the understeer. Though I guess it could be that the car is significantly more responsive to minor movements, exacerbating the problems from jerky inputs.
I contacted MCS when I first got the dampers and they suggested running rebound at min and max to get a feel for over and under-damped springs. Then set rebound to 9 clicks all around and adjust up or down from there. Seemed like having to adjust rebound to nearly the max indicated a spring rate problem, but that was just my assumption
I've got a track day in a few weeks, so I'll give the sway bar adjustments a shot and increase the rebound rate. thanks!
11-11-2020, 04:31 PM
#42
That's very helpful. When I first encountered the understeer, I considered firming up the rear bar, but my mechanic advised me to soften front bar instead. Since then I've seen quite a few posts about caymans suggesting firming up the rear to reduce mid corner understeer, but wasn't sure if I should stick with my mechanic's advice. I think I'll try out your settings.
I suppose it could be driver error, though I never had these issues on my old 997. And while I had some understeer when I switched over to the cayman (on the prior suspension), all thee upgrades have significantly increased the understeer. Though I guess it could be that the car is significantly more responsive to minor movements, exacerbating the problems from jerky inputs.
I contacted MCS when I first got the dampers and they suggested running rebound at min and max to get a feel for over and under-damped springs. Then set rebound to 9 clicks all around and adjust up or down from there. Seemed like having to adjust rebound to nearly the max indicated a spring rate problem, but that was just my assumption
I've got a track day in a few weeks, so I'll give the sway bar adjustments a shot and increase the rebound rate. thanks!
I suppose it could be driver error, though I never had these issues on my old 997. And while I had some understeer when I switched over to the cayman (on the prior suspension), all thee upgrades have significantly increased the understeer. Though I guess it could be that the car is significantly more responsive to minor movements, exacerbating the problems from jerky inputs.
I contacted MCS when I first got the dampers and they suggested running rebound at min and max to get a feel for over and under-damped springs. Then set rebound to 9 clicks all around and adjust up or down from there. Seemed like having to adjust rebound to nearly the max indicated a spring rate problem, but that was just my assumption
I've got a track day in a few weeks, so I'll give the sway bar adjustments a shot and increase the rebound rate. thanks!
Just food for thought. I'd try braking sooner (but much softer) and adjusting your approach to corners if you are used to a 911. It might be the difference (I doubt it, but its worth noting)
11-12-2020, 12:18 PM
#43
To that end I would not be driving a cayman how I drive a 911. I'll give you one example to help illustrate what I mean - for braking zones, I am braking harder and later in the 911 as the chassis can handle this far better given the way they transfer weight. The cayman is a much more direct, progressive style - braking similarly in the cayman will not allow you to turn in the same as a 911, and braking too hard and turning too rapidly will overload your front tires - and the car simply will not be able to turn, which will induce understeer.
Just food for thought. I'd try braking sooner (but much softer) and adjusting your approach to corners if you are used to a 911. It might be the difference (I doubt it, but its worth noting)
Just food for thought. I'd try braking sooner (but much softer) and adjusting your approach to corners if you are used to a 911. It might be the difference (I doubt it, but its worth noting)
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tq.3z (11-12-2020)
05-03-2021, 04:06 PM
#44
totally agree. Because of how it transfers weight, I'm actually hitting faster times in my manual cayman, despite it having 70hp less than my 997 that was PDK. It's ability to quickly transfer weight is incredible for S curves. Totally different driving experience. Though I'm not really having issues with braking or turn-in. Turn in feels pretty sharp. I've got another mechanic with more of a race background making some adjustments next week. 🤞🏻