Does "mostly DE use" hurt a car's value?
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 811
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Does "mostly DE use" hurt a car's value?
I saw a gorgeous 987 Spyder for sale over in the PCA classified. It seems like a simple, solid car that will be super fun to drive and always retain value!
A friend inquired about the car, and it has seen a lot of track time; I would estimate 20k based on the seller's description. This doesn't scare me away whatsoever. However, I am worried that it will impact future value when we are done with the car. I have seen cars that have track histories or track bits installed get hammered in terms of value on the classifieds here.
Given that this is probably a $45k-50k car (give or take) based on it being a less popular PDK, what do you think it is worth with the track history?
https://www.pca.org/classified-ad/333279
A friend inquired about the car, and it has seen a lot of track time; I would estimate 20k based on the seller's description. This doesn't scare me away whatsoever. However, I am worried that it will impact future value when we are done with the car. I have seen cars that have track histories or track bits installed get hammered in terms of value on the classifieds here.
Given that this is probably a $45k-50k car (give or take) based on it being a less popular PDK, what do you think it is worth with the track history?
https://www.pca.org/classified-ad/333279
Pro
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 647
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Isn't that what the car is meant for?
And can't go wrong with most PCA members, and maybe female driving a PDK.
Seems like this price already reflects is usage. I don't think this is THE car if the main concern is resale value.
And can't go wrong with most PCA members, and maybe female driving a PDK.
Seems like this price already reflects is usage. I don't think this is THE car if the main concern is resale value.
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Joined: Dec 2017
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From: Orange County, CA
I saw a gorgeous 987 Spyder for sale over in the PCA classified. It seems like a simple, solid car that will be super fun to drive and always retain value!
A friend inquired about the car, and it has seen a lot of track time; I would estimate 20k based on the seller's description. This doesn't scare me away whatsoever. However, I am worried that it will impact future value when we are done with the car. I have seen cars that have track histories or track bits installed get hammered in terms of value on the classifieds here.
Given that this is probably a $45k-50k car (give or take) based on it being a less popular PDK, what do you think it is worth with the track history?
https://www.pca.org/classified-ad/333279
A friend inquired about the car, and it has seen a lot of track time; I would estimate 20k based on the seller's description. This doesn't scare me away whatsoever. However, I am worried that it will impact future value when we are done with the car. I have seen cars that have track histories or track bits installed get hammered in terms of value on the classifieds here.
Given that this is probably a $45k-50k car (give or take) based on it being a less popular PDK, what do you think it is worth with the track history?
https://www.pca.org/classified-ad/333279
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2017
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Given that it's poste din the PCA classifieds, you can find out from the owner what region he/she did their track days with, generally what group the car was with, tire wall history and so on. Who is the head instructor there, can they tell you about the car and its usage? I know plenty of street track cars that are powder-puffed at the track, or if driven hard receive great care and have a good river behind the wheel. Like you I wouldn't be at all concerned about the car's condition.
This car has several thousand dollars worth of valuable track modifications, I wouldn't mind getting essentially free if I thought about using it for DEs myself.
Yes, I think there are buyers who will either try to discount a Porsche if it has track history or won't buy the car at all. So in that sense, if you don't plan on tracking it, and see it as a car to keep for a year or two before passing it on ( a perfectly reasonable position), then I think your pool of potential buyers will shrink-- just as the seller's pool of buyers today is smaller. This car is already aggressively priced given its color and options, there is probably more room there for you would be my guess.
Heck, I like that car myself (just kidding, wouldn't go for a PDK....)
This car has several thousand dollars worth of valuable track modifications, I wouldn't mind getting essentially free if I thought about using it for DEs myself.
Yes, I think there are buyers who will either try to discount a Porsche if it has track history or won't buy the car at all. So in that sense, if you don't plan on tracking it, and see it as a car to keep for a year or two before passing it on ( a perfectly reasonable position), then I think your pool of potential buyers will shrink-- just as the seller's pool of buyers today is smaller. This car is already aggressively priced given its color and options, there is probably more room there for you would be my guess.
Heck, I like that car myself (just kidding, wouldn't go for a PDK....)
Pro
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 705
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It is the great irony of Porsche ownership, isn't it? These cars are supreme track machines and a person can't even experience half of what these cars can do (legally) on the public roads. Yet, if someone actually used the car on a track, it diminishes the buyer pool and value.
But yes, track usage...especially to the tune of 20K miles...will make a car significantly less valuable on the private market if the seller is honest about the history. However the seller could take the exact same car to a dealer and trade it in or sell it for trade value, because unless the track usage is visible in the way of damage or lots of over revs, all they're going to do is look at the condition of the car and the mileage and price it accordingly.
And not to be a hypocrite, I would also expect to pay less for a car that has been significantly tracked vs. a car that hasn't. I guess I've been conditioned just like everyone else.
But yes, track usage...especially to the tune of 20K miles...will make a car significantly less valuable on the private market if the seller is honest about the history. However the seller could take the exact same car to a dealer and trade it in or sell it for trade value, because unless the track usage is visible in the way of damage or lots of over revs, all they're going to do is look at the condition of the car and the mileage and price it accordingly.
And not to be a hypocrite, I would also expect to pay less for a car that has been significantly tracked vs. a car that hasn't. I guess I've been conditioned just like everyone else.
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From: Mile High
My Cayman S was tracked. Twice by the prior owner who is also my friend. I was his instructor. The hardest lap the car took on the track was the one I took in the car first session out. I couldn't get him to push the car. He quit DEs because he couldn't bring himself to push it. I also followed him in the mountains in my/his old Cayman S and he was in his new Cayman S. He was pushing the car harder on the street than I was.
Bottom line is I guess it all depends.
Also, one gets about 100 miles a day on the track at a DE. that's 200 track days. Even if the PO was wicked fast, that's at least 100 track days. Does the PO work?
Race Director
Joined: May 2015
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It is the great irony of Porsche ownership, isn't it? These cars are supreme track machines and a person can't even experience half of what these cars can do (legally) on the public roads. Yet, if someone actually used the car on a track, it diminishes the buyer pool and value.
But back to the OP's question, extended track use is going to eliminate certain people from the buyer pool, which lowers demand for the car. And we all know how supply and demand works. Just be sure to factor it into your pricing of the car if you buy it.
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Instructor
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 174
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From: Palo Alto
20,000 track miles? Really? That's easily a hundred track days. 50 weekends. That's an awful lot (and I wonder if it's really correct). As others have indicated, these cars are more robust than the ordinary off-the-showroom floor car but, still, tracking takes a toll on a car. At a minimum, I'd have it thoroughly inspected but would be inclined to avoid it in any case. I've never seen a comparison but I would think that a track mile is equal to perhaps 5-10 street miles given RPM, pad and rotor wear, impact on suspension, etc. Even with e.g. new pads and rotors, the rest of the car has really been used.
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Racer
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 378
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From: TX
Would I worry about it? Probably. I'd definitely get a PPI. If it has been maintained, etc.. I'd definitely move forward if it checks all the boxes. However if one of the boxes is "I'd rather not have a heavily tracked car," I'd look elsewhere as there are plenty of cars available!
Pro
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 516
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From: Dahlonega, GA
I would be a bit hesitant to become the second owner of a car that was used extensively for HPDEs.
However, becoming the third owner after the second owner logged another 20k+ problem-free street-miles; that would put me more at ease.
Many people want showroom clean when they buy a used car, others will take what they can get based on their budget. As long as you resell the car for a reasonable price based on its history, I'm sure you'll eventually find a buyer. When I bought my 987S, it was low mileage and concours ready. But if I found a Spyder that fit my budget, as long as it was never in an accident, I'd buy it regardless of the history and cosmetic condition. I've rebuilt many cars.
Let's not forget that the Porsche Experience Center is taking brand new cars, throwing them in the hand of experts and novices to be thrashed around the track, then doing an oil change, spark plug change, and full detail before turning them out to the public as low-mileage one-year-old used cars. I know some PCA members who enthusiastically buy these cars because they're well cared for and a cheap way to buy a one year old car. I also know PCA members who would never touch these cars.
It is worth getting an over-rev report and maybe getting a full history of the car to keep in a binder for the next owner.
1. My wife, who is very capable on track, and would be driving this car faster and smoother than most men.
2. My very incapable sister-in-law who would probably be taking this thing to 9k RPM and grinding gears... Shutting the car off without a cool down lap... Hitting every pothole on the way to the track...
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Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Scottsdale, AZ
I inquired about this spyder and the owners shared this info:
I attach a summary of the details of her Boxster Spyder and I can confirm that the car had a full service at the end of August 2018 including fluid changes, new slotted rotors, Pagid yellow pads and Toyo R 888 Tires; since then she drove in a couple of 1 day events before the car was laid up for the winter and is fully ready to start a new season. The car has been primarily used by her for HPDE events, solely at Virginia International Raceway [VIR] where we are members, and she has averaged about 8 events a year.
By the way my wife became pretty quick with times consistently in the 2mins 18/19 secs for the VIR full course with her best time of 2mins 15secs being pretty close to the best that could probably be done in a street legal Spyder; some of the pure track ready Spyders might be a little quicker but they are completely stripped and are much lighter but not street legal; as you will note she owned the car since February 2012 and it never let her down nor did she ever go off course!
I attach a summary of the details of her Boxster Spyder and I can confirm that the car had a full service at the end of August 2018 including fluid changes, new slotted rotors, Pagid yellow pads and Toyo R 888 Tires; since then she drove in a couple of 1 day events before the car was laid up for the winter and is fully ready to start a new season. The car has been primarily used by her for HPDE events, solely at Virginia International Raceway [VIR] where we are members, and she has averaged about 8 events a year.
By the way my wife became pretty quick with times consistently in the 2mins 18/19 secs for the VIR full course with her best time of 2mins 15secs being pretty close to the best that could probably be done in a street legal Spyder; some of the pure track ready Spyders might be a little quicker but they are completely stripped and are much lighter but not street legal; as you will note she owned the car since February 2012 and it never let her down nor did she ever go off course!
Pro
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 565
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From: Zurich/Milan
Mine spyder has been used on tracks only by the first owner (seriously... with a roll cage and so on) for a few years. Second one replaced small parts ruined because of track racing (as few panels underbody etc) and got the porsche approved warranty.
Then I bought it. I went for an inspection to my usual dealer and to renew the PA and I asked them if the track topic could drive to any issue or if that could compromise the PA warranty.
His answer: "No. All conditions for the warranty are met. This means that the car is aligned and meet our standards. Stop worrying about these things and drive it as you stole it".
Then I bought it. I went for an inspection to my usual dealer and to renew the PA and I asked them if the track topic could drive to any issue or if that could compromise the PA warranty.
His answer: "No. All conditions for the warranty are met. This means that the car is aligned and meet our standards. Stop worrying about these things and drive it as you stole it".
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2018
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I have no problem with track car, as long as it's well maintained and not abused. But 20k is A LOT of track time, and like someone else pointed out - it puts a lot of stress on the car (engine, transmission, brakes, etc).
My take:
If you are buying the car to enjoy it - get it inspected and factor it the track time to negotiate your price. Mods normally reflect 10-20% of the actual cost, but I consider them "bonus"
If you are buying the car as an investment (hoping to gain or at least not losing $$), look for something else
My take:
If you are buying the car to enjoy it - get it inspected and factor it the track time to negotiate your price. Mods normally reflect 10-20% of the actual cost, but I consider them "bonus"
If you are buying the car as an investment (hoping to gain or at least not losing $$), look for something else
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 811
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I don't race cars, but I do race bicycles at the elite-pro level, and it is the same there. When is the last time someone broke a chain out training? Yet, I seem to snap chains once a year or more. Cassettes wear to nothing, shifter cables snap mid-race, stems somehow loosen when you hit the upteenth pothole at 25mph that nobody called out: there is a lot of stress when punching a bike out of a hairpin in a crit and trying to jump back up to 32mph. Not to mention crash damage!
I figure 1500 miles of bike racing in a season is about the same as 8,000 miles of training, in terms of drivetrain wear.
I figure 1500 miles of bike racing in a season is about the same as 8,000 miles of training, in terms of drivetrain wear.