Cloud9...68

As with most things in life, it depends. I agree that for the reasons Jeff cites, it is possible that very pristine, concours quality low mileage 968s with fastidious repair and maintenance records, particularly those in rare or desirable colors, could indeed enjoy some price appreciation in the coming years. But the problem is that only a tiny percentage of 968s fall into that category. More run-of-the-mill drivers, typically with over 100K miles on them, however well maintained, will continue to fetch in the $5K - $10K range. They're just old cars, folks, and I'm afraid the rising tide of appreciation of the most rarefied examples will not lift all the boats filled with the vast majority of the more typical ones.

John Etnier

...or to amplify on Cloud9 a bit: they're old cars most of which have put in many miles of service already: not really the collector's dream.

biosurfer1

Sure sounds like all the same things are being said about these cars that were said about the big muscle cars back in the 80's. They were a dime a dozen, got terrible gas mileage so no one wanted them, many were left for dead and all had much higher production numbers.

Any one seen a Barrett Jackson lately when one of those "dime a dozen" hemi's come up?

Cloud9...68

I don't think muscle cars are a good comparison. Muscle cars have always had a huge mystique (one I never understood - I always thought they were horribly engineered pieces of crap, but that's just me) surrounding them, which has turned into massive nostalgia. No such following ever surrounded the 968. The only thing the 968 really has going for it value-wise is its rarity, which, as I said, may help the top 1% best examples hold their value.

Also, the muscle cars getting the big buck at the auctions have been completely restored, to the tune of many tens of thousands of dollars. Rougher examples can still be had for very cheap. It will be a cold day in you-know-where before anybody spends that kind of money restoring a 968.

jeff968

Totally agree and there were many that said the same back in the day. i first acquired a taste for Chrysler muscle cars. My first car was a 70 Challenger 340 convertible in Plum crazy purple. I paid $400 for the car back in 1979. It recently sold for $45K (not by me). Original, marked up unrestored muscle cars are bringing even more money. I saw an original Hemi 'Cuda at the Mecum auction that sold well north of $100K and you could see the primer through the paint. I think that fact that 968s have held their value well shows their future potential. Time will tell. I for one am rooting for them!

Jacks911

While I think the Muscle Car example is off base as a 968 value predictor ... as those are cars the Boomers are recreating their youth in today ... another example closer to the 968 is an early Porsche. Or was it a VW? The once maligned 914. Try and buy one today for anywhere near it's original sticker price. And that includes "drivers" with 6 figure mileage and rust! Many with restoration and updating are going for $15k+. They sold new for $3000 and are now 40 years old. While they are a lot of fun on a country road, I know which Porsche I would spend $15,000 for today (Hint - it has a Real Porsche motor - in the front :-)

Cloud9...68

Ugh... Seriously? The 914? I wouldn't pay $500 for one of those hideous things if it had 20 miles on it and was stored in Jay Leno's garage these past 40 years. On an episode of the American version of Top Gear about a year-and-a-half ago, one of the hosts picked one up (admittedly it wasn't running very well) for something like $800, so I assumed that was about what they are worth. Wow, if one of those is worth what you say it is today (that's some pretty incredible appreciation over a very short time), then yes, I suppose there may be some serious upside potential for the 968. Or the Ford Pinto. Or the AMC Pacer.

What is it about the 914 that is driving up its value? I understand it's a very well-balanced car with excellent potential as an autocrosser, or even a track car, but that can't explain why they are worth so much more than when they were new. Maybe it's reputation as the first "affordable Porsche"?

As far as another car that seems to have hit bottom, or is getting very close, how about the BMW E46 M3? There are a ton of them for sale, some as low as the low teens. Seems like an incredible bargain for a modern, nice-looking, well-balanced, comfortable GT with over 330 hp under the hood, with the BMW cache to boot.

odurandina

thinking of restoring that 1951 Hudson Hornet sitting behind your neighbor's garage ?? predicting car appreciation also depends on something I seldom hear mentioned: a future filled with a large population of automobile enthusiasts of able means.... here, anyone willing to crunch numbers will not easily arrive at any other place other than a crash in collector cars (and everything on the fringe) in the near future.... this would all but preclude big crash in just about everything dating before the early '60s – with all classic exotics, production cars and muscle cars spanning the '60s~early '70s, and the supercars that came after – faring a little better.... recall that just about everything including 968s were selling for blood money 5 years ago.... but, not only is this economy taking a toll, but we've since reached the point where enthusiasts and collectors are aging, unloading a lot of vehicles, and dying off.... and their equivalent replacements are not only few and far between -- they're also the most impoverished generation of Americans since the Great Depression... and if the situation wasn't already bad enough, their idea of a desirable car often looks like some ricer piece of crap built after 1990.... and you all should expect this trend not only to continue, but to accelerate for the next 15~20 years.

odurandina

sadly, if you compare the current prices to the peak about 6 years, ago it's actually somewhat shocking.


and, back on the Audi thing.


first, if Porsche built the 944, this is certainly news to me. and whether it's true or not, i'm talking purely about perception. Audi's had some highly publicized mechanical failures that most certainly led to the brand's reputation taking a huge hit around the mid-1980s that lasted for over 5 years... and, never mind the debacle on 60 minutes. fair or not, there were some real problems with the cars. (the parents of one of my high school friends co-owned the Audi dealership in Natick, MA, and made mention of a high number of engine failures and electrical problems with the 4000s and 5000s). still, i'm not in any way an Audi hater. I loved the whole 5 cylinder concept from start to finish. but again, their reputation having suffered a hard hit should not be in dispute... I don't know if this contributed to the crash of 944 sales after 1988, but I've long suspected that it played a role.

the quality of build of the 968s is clearly a significant improvement over the 944. is the fact that the 968s were manufactured at the Porsche plant at Stuttgart just a coincidence ? I say not. but maybe the 968 is just a better-designed car. I know the engine is certainly better. but, i'm not in the position to judge as expert.

Cloud9...68

Interesting points. You may be right that the pool of buyers for cars we find interesting is going to shrink over the coming years and decades. Who knows - the highly speculative topic of future market values always makes for some lively discussions, even on a forum as usually quiet as this one.

odurandina

btw,

i just did some fact checking....

Audi units dropped from over 70 thousand units shipped to USA in 1986 to something like 12 thousand by 1993. I've always believed this was just as much related to lousy build quality in the mid-80s, as much as anything else.... once again, I never meant to cause the Audi lovers to mug me in the back alley. it's an enthusiast forum and I was stating an opinion.... I just can't help but think the Audi stigma affected Porsche's decision to rename the 944 and build the cars in Stuttgart.

again, I was talking from the perspective of the public's perception.

I've always been in Audi's corner.

still, I wish they'd made a big 5 cylinder block capable of monster hp.

docmirror

The 968 was more or less doomed for it's price. When introduced it competed with the newly restyled 300ZX from Nissan which was nicely outfitted for $20k less money. Hard to justify $20k for a slower car just because it has a Porsche crest. Since there was no 1992 928 model, Porsche was hoping to take some market from the 928 which had an uncertain future at that time recall at that time Porsche was reeling in part from the debacle with the PFM aircraft engine.

It was a hard time for Porsche, and the tooling to knock out the 968 in the Stuttgart factory caused it to be hard to continue making money on them. I think the 93 and 94 actually went down in price, but it didn't help. Those in the know could tell the 968 was a left over from the 944/951 lineage and the fact was, the value just wasn't there.

I hope it would start picking up in value, but really don't see it happening.

Vendetta NY

Been following along here in preparation to get back into the line.

I gotta ask though, is anyone really looking to purchase a 968 as an investment vehicle? A 20-year old car, with probably a lot of miles already? To what, put it in the garage and not drive it? I can understand if you've already got one, and want to keep it all pristine. But unless that kind of person finds a buyer who wants to do the same, then expect to sell it for what a driver will pay.

To me it's academic though. I've read that having a great car and not driving it in order to preserve its value is like having a supermodel wife and not having sex with her, which only benefits her next husband (or the guy she's cheating with). I don't buy cars to sell, I buy cars to drive. So I agree with the analogy.

-V

Cloud9...68

I think a lot of people are hoping they will be able to have their cake and eat it too, so to speak. Some believe that there are reasons for the 968 to appreciate, and that these forces will lift the value of even average, higher-mileage cars. Buy a cool Porsche at a bargain price, drive it as much as you want, then sell it without losing any money, or even making some, is I think how the theory goes. I'm in the camp that this is a pipe dream, but who knows? Nobody can predict the future, after all.

odurandina

if it's a contest – who's really winning?


all great points. we've heard them before but it's always way better to hear it from a relative newcomer to the 968.

when you add up all the good points (made on a few recent threads) and go see what they're selling for, the likelihood of anything changing anytime soon, for all but the most rare examples, gets us to the next question....

seems you've hit upon the glaring contradiction. somebody sees a rare car sell for good money and says, "see, the cars are appreciating!" then someone steals a 12 k mile creampuff with an LSD for $13 k, and another guy steals a low-mile car in Riviera Blue for a couple thousand dollars more.... then the high mile cars sell for wholesale prices.

we spend a fair amount of time here admiring the cars kept in pristine condition. and to be sure there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing so... but, adjusted for inflation, the 968s sold for Cayman S prices (or more).... but, people who kept them pristine didn't fare well. even worse if they required transmission rebuilds. still, people lose perspective. 911s costing 2 and 3 times as much are referred to by Porsche as 'driver cars....' indeed, many are daily driven for 150 k miles, scratched, dinged, get GT3 body kits installed, and if the engines blow up, they drop in a better one...

but, we're getting goofy over a few entry-level 968s with crusty hoses and cracking wires holding their value slightly.... caught in purgatory talking about keeping everything original for the examples no one's even barely had the pleasure of driving..... talk to the 911 drivers. wanna know what they brag about? how much their car is worth? hardly (not the cool ones anyway). they grin about much they get to drive their GT3s !


conclusions....

fussing over the value of your 968 borders on pathological.

whatever category your car falls into, you should start driving crap out of it. and when the paint can't take anymore polishing, get a re-spray. and drive the crap out of it some more. the engines are begging for it (and when it blows up.... well, you know).





and 20 years later, ZXs are stealing sales from the Caymans/Boxsters.