Purchase of a 968
07-07-2012, 12:52 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
OD, with all due respect, unless you have 1st hand experience with either, you cannot act like you know what you are talking about. Got your message btw.
I have mentioned this in the past as well, get it, show it and then talk it up. Until then you are just wasting bandwidth. All your posts have to be viewed as chatter until you walk the walk.
I have mentioned this in the past as well, get it, show it and then talk it up. Until then you are just wasting bandwidth. All your posts have to be viewed as chatter until you walk the walk.
07-07-2012, 01:17 PM
#32
Team Owner
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i've done 2 family swaps with two muscle car engines. and 1 non-family swap... just not this one. but i'm pretty far along here with what will be my 2nd.... you all know i want everything to be really good, so it's been a bit slower going than normal. and the engine isn't some stamped-out, assembly-line piece of crap. nor the transmission... and, when the current situation now find myself in concludes, the project will proceed.... for now, the swap will have to place second behind the hospice/family tragedy context (now into it's 3rd month).
finished addressing all your points on the previous page....
please see final edits @ post #29.
best,
od.
.
finished addressing all your points on the previous page....
please see final edits @ post #29.
best,
od.
.
Last edited by odurandina; 07-07-2012 at 02:51 PM.
07-07-2012, 02:52 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
So in other words, you have not done this in a 968, either by turbo-charging or by dropping in a V8. So you don't have any 1st hand experience with either yet you keep going on and on about how great of a setup this is in a 968? I just don't get it. Maybe I missing something here.
In either case, checking out. Don't have all day to waste on this.. I guess you just don't get it.
In either case, checking out. Don't have all day to waste on this.. I guess you just don't get it.
07-07-2012, 05:55 PM
#34
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just so we're clear, Raj doesn't hide behind his computer.
he was nice enough to call and give me a far more comprehensive *** chewing.
he was nice enough to call and give me a far more comprehensive *** chewing.
07-07-2012, 05:56 PM
#35
Speaking of V8's. There was a very nice one sold within the last year. Or maybe it did not sell but I believe it was in Florida. Anyone know the wherabouts of that car. There was a ton of money spent on that one and it looked to be very well done.
07-07-2012, 05:59 PM
#36
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original owner is enjoying it. he posted about iquiring about transmission mods a few days ago.
if i'm not mistaken, it is another of Mike Goki's (Ft. Lauderdale) conversions.
if i'm not mistaken, it is another of Mike Goki's (Ft. Lauderdale) conversions.
07-07-2012, 06:34 PM
#37
Nordschleife Master
either way, i talked to that guy about buying it after the auction (it wasn't selling and i had no idea what his reserve was...)and all he did was report me to ebay and then ignore... if he treated everyone like that im not surprised he still has it...
07-07-2012, 07:47 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
OK, question - anybody here actually drive a V8 swapped 968? That would take this discussion out of the realm of theory and into the real world. I maintain that while with a tremendous amount of expertise, experience, and money, a decent V8 swap is within the realm of possibility, I'm highly skeptical that a large percentage of the ones that have been done actually perform well in the real world, meaning everything (all electricals, the ABS, power steering, all the gauges, etc.) works, the thing doesn't rattle and shake, the chassis isn't twisted to the point the doors don't open and close properly after a few years, etc.
My feeling that both a turbo upgrade, particularly one involving >15 psi boost, and a V8 swap, are extraordinarily complex undertakings. But I'm the first to confess I've never seen, much less driven, either, so I'm curious as to how many people reading this discussion have (other than obviously Raj on the turbo side).
My feeling that both a turbo upgrade, particularly one involving >15 psi boost, and a V8 swap, are extraordinarily complex undertakings. But I'm the first to confess I've never seen, much less driven, either, so I'm curious as to how many people reading this discussion have (other than obviously Raj on the turbo side).
07-07-2012, 08:12 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
OK, question - anybody here actually drive a V8 swapped 968? That would take this discussion out of the realm of theory and into the real world. I maintain that while with a tremendous amount of expertise, experience, and money, a decent V8 swap is within the realm of possibility, I'm highly skeptical that a large percentage of the ones that have been done actually perform well in the real world, meaning everything (all electricals, the ABS, power steering, all the gauges, etc.) works, the thing doesn't rattle and shake, the chassis isn't twisted to the point the doors don't open and close properly after a few years, etc.
My feeling that both a turbo upgrade, particularly one involving >15 psi boost, and a V8 swap, are extraordinarily complex undertakings. But I'm the first to confess I've never seen, much less driven, either, so I'm curious as to how many people reading this discussion have (other than obviously Raj on the turbo side).
My feeling that both a turbo upgrade, particularly one involving >15 psi boost, and a V8 swap, are extraordinarily complex undertakings. But I'm the first to confess I've never seen, much less driven, either, so I'm curious as to how many people reading this discussion have (other than obviously Raj on the turbo side).
Same goes for turbo-charging. I don't believe in talking anyone into or out of either setup. It is their choice. I don't know enough about V8 to say it is better or worse. I do know what a good turbo setup can do.
I know if I want a V8, I would just buy a ZR1. End of the story.
Regards.
Raj
07-07-2012, 08:15 PM
#40
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I'm highly skeptical that a large percentage of the ones that have been done actually perform well in the real world, meaning everything (all electricals, the ABS, power steering, all the gauges, etc.) works, the thing doesn't rattle and shake, the chassis isn't twisted to the point the doors don't open and close properly after a few years, etc.
LOL..... i don't think that i could have been any more clear in stating that the drivelines function perfectly..... but one issue i have with most of the swaps is poorly done exhausts... one of the guys (Alan) posted a 0-120-0 video (blindingly fast) but then decided he didn't want to have to deal with anything in the context of law enforcement... i have it saved on my computer, and it is nothing less than a classic... but unfortunately, it's gone off the internet.
after 4 or 5 years running a full race schedule, Tony's LS1 finally exploded and he dropped in an LS6. that was 2 years ago. so, like se7en years and still going strong.... Vipers, Vettes, Ferrari 575 and half a dozen other very fast cars are equalled by the modified 944....
and here's another of the class of flimsy cars as described above.
Last edited by odurandina; 07-08-2012 at 03:38 AM.
07-07-2012, 08:22 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Tony is not your average owner. He knows his **** and can wrench. I hope you are not comparing yourself or most others here to Tony. Also, if I remember correctly, Tony did not do this 7 yrs back.
Get your setup and then post videos. We will all be here rooting for you. Get your 150K on it and then we can talk.
Adios.
Get your setup and then post videos. We will all be here rooting for you. Get your 150K on it and then we can talk.
Adios.
07-07-2012, 11:51 PM
#44
6th Gear
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i understand the point of view of both, but i would prefer a turbo myself. a V8 does sound amazing, and can deliver the power wanted, but it doesn't sound like a Porsche should. a turbo whistle sounds much more like a Porsche. if anyone has any other ideas, or possible swaps and prices that would be great. thank you for all the info though. 
07-08-2012, 03:10 AM
#45
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pardon, if i'm skeptical that you'll actually be one of those.
op,
i'll cite from my limited knowledge of the 944 turbo (968 turbos are in the family).... while the 968 engine is an extremely solid base engine, there are common issues between the two (Porsche/Bosch Motronic) platforms... and the turbine/wastegates for the 968 are taken right from the 944....
i'll begin with a story from one of RL's well-known 'turbo guys....'
there are several hundred more just like it that have been posted during the last few years.
Originally Posted by turboguy from somewhere in North America
Well i have been talking about it for the past few months and finally have something to show. I bought this LS1.... Anyway i am really looking forward to doing the LS conversion. I have spent alot of time and money on a turbo engine but could really never get it running right. Back in the winter of '09 i was debating rebuilding the engine, putting in a V8 or selling the car. I ended up rebuilding the engine, i fixed all the oil leaks, redid the bottom end but still had many of the issues originally from before the rebuild (running problems). Spent the rest of the year trying to sort the problems out and as a result missed an entire track season and wasted alot of time. I decided in November before i put the car away for storage i had pretty much had it with the turbo engine. Wishing i had just done the swap last year as i would have saved alot of money and grief!
It will be sad to see this (turbo) engine go though, i put so much time and money into this thing. It was alot of fun when it ran right.. but it hasnt really ran right since the beginning of '09!
Still need to find many other parts needed like the C5 bell housing, f-body PS pump bracket (so i can use the Turn1 pump), fbody a/c comrpessor and a few other odds and ends. I also need to figure out what brake booster setup to go with.
I did consider selling the car, but really love the 944 platform. I have owned a 944 series car since '02 and daily drove my 951 up until '08 or so. I just couldnt bring myself to sell the car though, it is very well equipped... just the engine was always the questionable part.
it has been stated, (rather loudly) you only can form an opinion by doing. so then, it's possible that with this particular platform i won't win a nobel prize.... dating back to 1990, i've owned a 944, 928 and 968.... and i must admit that i've somehow managed to remain more a car driver and casual observer than wrencher. i've taken an inventory of the experiences of others.... starting with my co-worker who had a Turbo around the same time i got my 944 S. i've done a lot of reading on the Rennlist forums over a good number of years (worthless, i concede).... i've admired (again, mostly from a safe distance) a number of success stories involving 944 Turbos. at one time, i dreamed of 'turboing' my own 968.... but i was taken aback by the committment required to see such an undertaking through to the end.
as i weighed the possibilities, over time... i wasn't shown enough evidence of the likelihood of success. i came across too many less-than-happy stories. at one time, i went back through almost 5 years of the 944 turbo threads (in an attempt to learn more) and i came to find something else that was particularly curious—namely—that so many avatars from old threads were gone from the forum. over time i've came to form an opinion that other Rennlist forums didn't seem to suffer the same high turnover of members as the 944 and 944T. it wasn't even close.
ownership offers a lot of choices. you drive a 944 Turbo, and you'll almost never find fault with the performance or the way the cars feel on the road. if your 944 eventually dies, you can get stay 'in' by sourcing parts cars, or calling Lart... or stay in the family with the purchase of a 968.... the joy of ownership is hardly any less than if you were to drive a 911, Cayman or Boxster. nevertheless, the one thing people come to discover, is that the entrance fee into ownership is low, but the cost to stay in (at least in terms of shop time for tuning and repairs)—is high.... from the time i began posting in (2009) i ran afowl of the 944T community because i discovered the extreme number of turbo projects (or ownership experiences) that ended unsuccessfully despite an outpouring of love and care for the cars themselves, and didn't remain silent about it....
finally, there is one last curious detail about this car that never ceases to astonish me:
when people spend what appears to be (an unbalanced % of their personal worth) in the turbo ownership context, real life creeps in.... eventually a wedding, the necessity to pick up a daily car for work, or a home purchase, forces them to sell (however sad this may be)... and often, the only way they can get back even a small % of the money they have poured into their cars is by stripping them to the bone and having a parts sale !! sometimes still, this happens for no other reason than another blown head gasket. INSANE !
this is an very small board... and topics for discussion often don't get too in depth... if some members don't find common ground, consider that with the 968, this has gone on for a long time. people are extremely passionate about their ideas, and what they ultimately decide is the best choice, often doesn't make sense to someone else.... this is not uncommon on performance car forums everywhere.
the topic of v8 power and turbocharging could have received it's own thread some time ago. but, hopefully not with the all-too-common theme that Method A is superior to Method B, when doing either will certainly make one's experience with the 968 quite a bit more interesting... if we can't have a friendly discussion about it, fine. it's just a few guys (or even less?) talking, offering their $0.02 in response to 'want something with a turbo...' while my reasoning may appear scurvy to some, and especially, (since i've avoided wrenching turbines), others seem less-offended..... but, if i did wrench turbos, that would have only increased the sample by say, 1 or 2.... i keep a friendly skeptic view of a 968 turbo projects. (but that doesn't mean i wouldn't love having one. here are some of my reasons).
1. there aren't enough 968 turbo engine builders in the United States actively maintaing this platform in terms of a "bang it out" engine core collecting, blueprinting and delivery curcuit.
a few years ago ? maybe. not now.
2. there aren't enough techs (troubleshooting, repairs and tuning) in the United States such that you will be able to have one available in a short time frame in any way that anyone in their right mind could possibly characterize as adequate to contribute towards a positive long-term ownership experience.
3. the learning curve associated with wrenching turbos appears quite long...
4. turbos require too much time and $$$$ in the way of maintenance and repairs.
5. i find owners of the 944T board far too often appear to be 'on their own' when tuning gremlins or other acute circumstances arise... sure, they have the other forum members, which offer a lot of help troubleshooting these mysterious ailments. but quite often, it appears not to be enough... in many cases, the time between correct diagnosis and final fixes often seems to drag on and on and on... and the cars sit.
6. the engine management systems of the turbos are not up to the levels of modern turbo cars (like what you see from large automobile makers like Subaru, Toyota, ect)... to be fair, the 944T was a low-production car with just a few thousand examples, (designed in the mid-1980s).
I am a veteran Porsche factory tech and cannot think of anything specifically special about the 993.... I can show you stacks of files over decades that show that any 944/924/951 is one of the most expensive cars to own. The average air-cooled car is much cheaper in the long run.
7. Porsche abandoned the platform after just a few years.
8. as with everything, there are always exceptions....
just my $0.02.
.
Last edited by odurandina; 07-08-2012 at 05:19 PM.