968 Stage II Supercharger Kit Dyno Results
04-05-2012, 12:33 PM
#17
Developer
Thread Starter
Price
I was able to bring this kit in at the same price as before, so there is no price increase.
It is available as a "Mechanicals Only" kit for the 968 owner who wants to develop their own fueling solution; and as a complete kit for those customers that want a proven, complete kit including Engine Management.
Mechanicals Only 968 Stage II kit: $5395.00
Complete kit with EMS: $7595.00
Webpage for more information:
http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/...percharger.php
It is available as a "Mechanicals Only" kit for the 968 owner who wants to develop their own fueling solution; and as a complete kit for those customers that want a proven, complete kit including Engine Management.
Mechanicals Only 968 Stage II kit: $5395.00
Complete kit with EMS: $7595.00
Webpage for more information:
http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/...percharger.php
04-13-2012, 10:05 PM
#18
Developer
Thread Starter
With all the interest in our Stage 1 kit, and so many trying to modify it for track use, I thought there would be more activity and conversation on this Stage II development.... a little disappointing now that we took it back in and re-designed it to use the double-sided belt drive that the forum members were asking for, put up 50 HP more than the Stage 1 kit, and kept the price the same as the previous Stage II kit.... why no interest?
04-14-2012, 11:05 AM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Carl,
With respect to the lack of interest, I can only guess that people have adapted stage 1 systems in the mean time. Another possibility is the desire to run an intercooler for serious track use. That was my reason for doing my own design. In hotter climates like Australia, I have yet to come across anyone that would run non-intercooled forced induction on the track. Also, most would prefer to increase the boost to the max and this would necessitate intercooling. I'm just postulating here.
With respect to the lack of interest, I can only guess that people have adapted stage 1 systems in the mean time. Another possibility is the desire to run an intercooler for serious track use. That was my reason for doing my own design. In hotter climates like Australia, I have yet to come across anyone that would run non-intercooled forced induction on the track. Also, most would prefer to increase the boost to the max and this would necessitate intercooling. I'm just postulating here.
04-16-2012, 11:38 AM
#22
Developer
Thread Starter
Carl,
With respect to the lack of interest, I can only guess that people have adapted stage 1 systems in the mean time. Another possibility is the desire to run an intercooler for serious track use. That was my reason for doing my own design. In hotter climates like Australia, I have yet to come across anyone that would run non-intercooled forced induction on the track. Also, most would prefer to increase the boost to the max and this would necessitate intercooling. I'm just postulating here.
With respect to the lack of interest, I can only guess that people have adapted stage 1 systems in the mean time. Another possibility is the desire to run an intercooler for serious track use. That was my reason for doing my own design. In hotter climates like Australia, I have yet to come across anyone that would run non-intercooled forced induction on the track. Also, most would prefer to increase the boost to the max and this would necessitate intercooling. I'm just postulating here.
FYI, at the dyno, we saw very pedestrian manifold temp numbers on this kit - no cause for alarm. But, like you say, we are not in your climate, either.
04-17-2012, 07:51 AM
#23
Three Wheelin'
Thanks Eric - a good response. of course the customer is free to install an intercooler if they want that "ultimate" installation. But they have to be willing to use a sawzall on their 968 to do so, so I avoid such things in my designs. The moment they have to cut sheet metal to make room or big holes, I think its no longer a "bolt-on kit" as advertised. Thats why, in this case, I designed without an intercooler.
FYI, at the dyno, we saw very pedestrian manifold temp numbers on this kit - no cause for alarm. But, like you say, we are not in your climate, either.
FYI, at the dyno, we saw very pedestrian manifold temp numbers on this kit - no cause for alarm. But, like you say, we are not in your climate, either.
At 5psi, theoretical temp gain is 37C. Why do you suspect you are not getting such gains? I'm curious because I have heard of low gains without an IC elsewhere and can't work out why. Is it because of short one-off dyno runs only?
04-17-2012, 01:03 PM
#24
Developer
Thread Starter
Remember that your goal is not air pressure, but air mass/air density.
And as the air is compressed, it is heated. The measure of compressing the air without heating it is the "adiabatic efficiency" of the supercharger.
If the other threads or installs you are referring to are using a 60% efficient or 70% efficient supercharger, then thay are pumping hot air into the motor (Remember hot air is less dense than cold air) and they will see real gains from an intercooler.
Because the Raptor on this kit is 75% to 80% efficient, it doesn't heat the air as much, and hence, the intercooler on this install will not make as big a difference.
Would an intercooler help? Absolutely. Cold air is more dense than hot air. They almost always help, but remeber intercoolers add a restriction to air flow and lower the PSI a bit - it's a trade-off. So it has to be a GOOD intercooler, and plumbed with few elbows to reduce pressure drop. Rule-of-Thumb: there is 1 psi pressure drop for every two 90 degree bends the induction tubing makes..
And as the air is compressed, it is heated. The measure of compressing the air without heating it is the "adiabatic efficiency" of the supercharger.
If the other threads or installs you are referring to are using a 60% efficient or 70% efficient supercharger, then thay are pumping hot air into the motor (Remember hot air is less dense than cold air) and they will see real gains from an intercooler.
Because the Raptor on this kit is 75% to 80% efficient, it doesn't heat the air as much, and hence, the intercooler on this install will not make as big a difference.
Would an intercooler help? Absolutely. Cold air is more dense than hot air. They almost always help, but remeber intercoolers add a restriction to air flow and lower the PSI a bit - it's a trade-off. So it has to be a GOOD intercooler, and plumbed with few elbows to reduce pressure drop. Rule-of-Thumb: there is 1 psi pressure drop for every two 90 degree bends the induction tubing makes..
04-17-2012, 09:41 PM
#25
Instructor
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+1 for the intercooler for the ambient high temps.on a s/c car with std 11 to 1 compression ratio
running 350 bhp engine on a hot track .
Carl,you have done a great job in developing the stage 1 and stage 2 kits.and absolutely right that the
bolt on limit has been reached without the intercooler
Perhaps another factor could be that once you reach that s/c budget cost,the car may no longer be used for road,A/C system removed for more performance ,and it is a new ballgame with bigger oil coolers,
bigger radiators,etc and making a 968 TURBO RS replica,more appealing?
running 350 bhp engine on a hot track .
Carl,you have done a great job in developing the stage 1 and stage 2 kits.and absolutely right that the
bolt on limit has been reached without the intercooler
Perhaps another factor could be that once you reach that s/c budget cost,the car may no longer be used for road,A/C system removed for more performance ,and it is a new ballgame with bigger oil coolers,
bigger radiators,etc and making a 968 TURBO RS replica,more appealing?
04-22-2012, 10:08 PM
#26
5th Gear
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First Drive: 928 Motorsports’ 968 Stage 2 Supercharger kit at the Mid-Ohio
First Drive: 928 Motorsports’ 968 Stage 2 Supercharger kit at the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course.
The experience:
It starts with me taking my car to Carl at 928 Motorsports to have them finish development of their new double sided belt system and their complete stage 2 concept on my 968. I already had a few trips planned to Madison WI but that meant a difficult schedule for Carl. It gave them three weeks to design, fabricate custom parts, do the installation and do all of the tuning on the dyno. I trailered from Columbus, Ohio and got there on Saturday night. Carl and Myles were both there to help me unload. You could immediately see both of their minds working through the details of the design. I have been driving on the track for 18 years now so I have spent a lot of time with capable mechanics, fabricators, tuners etc…and these guys are the real deal. It’s Carl’s business and he tends to do the big picture and mechanical development and Myles is the electronics expert. You can tell they really work well together as a team. I picked up the car, as optimistically scheduled, on my next trip to Madison. They had to work through the weekend but they saved me 20 hours of driving by me not having to make another trip. Upon picking up the car, I had a great experience, their work looked great, the tuning was thorough and I had a lot of confidence in the car going forward. I can’t think of anything more I could have asked for.
On the track:
I had made a lot of changes to the car so this was going to be interesting. A new wing and splitter from Good Aero (another new 968 development project), new wider front wheels and tires, stiffer springs, new front camber set up and the new 928 Motorsports’ 968 Stage 2 Supercharger kit. Oh, and I didn’t get any real track time in last year. There was potential for it to be a great day or….
It turned out to be what I consider to be a great day. I really had a lot of confidence in the Supercharger from the beginning. For the first run I took it a little easy with the high RPMs for a few reasons. I wanted to make sure the supercharger wasn’t getting too hot, that the belt wasn’t showing any wear and there are some turns at Mid-Ohio that I hoped I could go a gear taller with the Supercharger and the Aero. It was a 70 degree day and the Supercharger ran at 210 degrees and the belt showed no signs of wear. I was also a little concerned about the front splitter only having 1 ½ “ to 2” of ground clearance but that was good too. (No pun intended with it being a Good Aero kit)
I was relatively tentative with the car but everything about the car was easier to drive. It was kind of stupid to change everything at once but the concept really worked. All of the changes really balanced each other out.
On the second run I got a little more aggressive and learned a little more about the
Supercharger and the brakes. In some ways I almost don’t notice the extra power. You just run with faster cars and don’t have to work as hard. The power comes on very smoothly. There is a real nice extra squirt at the top end of the gears around 5,000 RPM. You can see it on the Dyno graph. I did have to watch it a little. There were a few places I had to remind myself that even though I was going the speed I was used to at that point on the track the gas peddle was not to the floor and I should get it there and there were other places I had to remind myself to lift. That my old routine wasn’t going to work with the extra speed.
I have been concerned with the brakes from the beginning. Even before the Supercharger I had been right at the limit with brake fluid temps. I tend to be hard on brakes and it would not be a bad thing for me to be a little more gentle so I was taking this opportunity to work on that. That didn’t quite do it. The brake pedal got soft and then softer. I had to start to give the brakes an extra little pump etc… I cut the second run session a little short.
The third session I thought I would just get a little more seat time with all of the changes. Take it really easy on the brakes, not push the top speed, experiment with gearing, etc… Things were going well. The car was pulling with a lot of fast cars. And then it started missing! Oh …. ! Head gasket? Temps looked ok. Plugs? Fuel? I pulled into the pits and was a little afraid to open the hood but at first glance everything looked good. No fluid leaks. The Supercharge belt still looked new. The Supercharger temp was still 210 degrees. Oh, there it is: The spark plug wire mounting had come lose and they were getting cut in half by the edge of the supercharger’s upper idler pulley.
It looks like some upgraded brake fluid and a new set of plug wires are in order. I love easy fixes. As I said, a great day at the track!
The experience:
It starts with me taking my car to Carl at 928 Motorsports to have them finish development of their new double sided belt system and their complete stage 2 concept on my 968. I already had a few trips planned to Madison WI but that meant a difficult schedule for Carl. It gave them three weeks to design, fabricate custom parts, do the installation and do all of the tuning on the dyno. I trailered from Columbus, Ohio and got there on Saturday night. Carl and Myles were both there to help me unload. You could immediately see both of their minds working through the details of the design. I have been driving on the track for 18 years now so I have spent a lot of time with capable mechanics, fabricators, tuners etc…and these guys are the real deal. It’s Carl’s business and he tends to do the big picture and mechanical development and Myles is the electronics expert. You can tell they really work well together as a team. I picked up the car, as optimistically scheduled, on my next trip to Madison. They had to work through the weekend but they saved me 20 hours of driving by me not having to make another trip. Upon picking up the car, I had a great experience, their work looked great, the tuning was thorough and I had a lot of confidence in the car going forward. I can’t think of anything more I could have asked for.
On the track:
I had made a lot of changes to the car so this was going to be interesting. A new wing and splitter from Good Aero (another new 968 development project), new wider front wheels and tires, stiffer springs, new front camber set up and the new 928 Motorsports’ 968 Stage 2 Supercharger kit. Oh, and I didn’t get any real track time in last year. There was potential for it to be a great day or….
It turned out to be what I consider to be a great day. I really had a lot of confidence in the Supercharger from the beginning. For the first run I took it a little easy with the high RPMs for a few reasons. I wanted to make sure the supercharger wasn’t getting too hot, that the belt wasn’t showing any wear and there are some turns at Mid-Ohio that I hoped I could go a gear taller with the Supercharger and the Aero. It was a 70 degree day and the Supercharger ran at 210 degrees and the belt showed no signs of wear. I was also a little concerned about the front splitter only having 1 ½ “ to 2” of ground clearance but that was good too. (No pun intended with it being a Good Aero kit)
I was relatively tentative with the car but everything about the car was easier to drive. It was kind of stupid to change everything at once but the concept really worked. All of the changes really balanced each other out.
On the second run I got a little more aggressive and learned a little more about the
Supercharger and the brakes. In some ways I almost don’t notice the extra power. You just run with faster cars and don’t have to work as hard. The power comes on very smoothly. There is a real nice extra squirt at the top end of the gears around 5,000 RPM. You can see it on the Dyno graph. I did have to watch it a little. There were a few places I had to remind myself that even though I was going the speed I was used to at that point on the track the gas peddle was not to the floor and I should get it there and there were other places I had to remind myself to lift. That my old routine wasn’t going to work with the extra speed.
I have been concerned with the brakes from the beginning. Even before the Supercharger I had been right at the limit with brake fluid temps. I tend to be hard on brakes and it would not be a bad thing for me to be a little more gentle so I was taking this opportunity to work on that. That didn’t quite do it. The brake pedal got soft and then softer. I had to start to give the brakes an extra little pump etc… I cut the second run session a little short.
The third session I thought I would just get a little more seat time with all of the changes. Take it really easy on the brakes, not push the top speed, experiment with gearing, etc… Things were going well. The car was pulling with a lot of fast cars. And then it started missing! Oh …. ! Head gasket? Temps looked ok. Plugs? Fuel? I pulled into the pits and was a little afraid to open the hood but at first glance everything looked good. No fluid leaks. The Supercharge belt still looked new. The Supercharger temp was still 210 degrees. Oh, there it is: The spark plug wire mounting had come lose and they were getting cut in half by the edge of the supercharger’s upper idler pulley.
It looks like some upgraded brake fluid and a new set of plug wires are in order. I love easy fixes. As I said, a great day at the track!
04-23-2012, 11:19 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
First Drive: 928 Motorsports’ 968 Stage 2 Supercharger kit at the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course.
The experience:
It starts with me taking my car to Carl at 928 Motorsports to have them finish development of their new double sided belt system and their complete stage 2 concept on my 968. I already had a few trips planned to Madison WI but that meant a difficult schedule for Carl. It gave them three weeks to design, fabricate custom parts, do the installation and do all of the tuning on the dyno. I trailered from Columbus, Ohio and got there on Saturday night. Carl and Myles were both there to help me unload. You could immediately see both of their minds working through the details of the design. I have been driving on the track for 18 years now so I have spent a lot of time with capable mechanics, fabricators, tuners etc…and these guys are the real deal. It’s Carl’s business and he tends to do the big picture and mechanical development and Myles is the electronics expert. You can tell they really work well together as a team. I picked up the car, as optimistically scheduled, on my next trip to Madison. They had to work through the weekend but they saved me 20 hours of driving by me not having to make another trip. Upon picking up the car, I had a great experience, their work looked great, the tuning was thorough and I had a lot of confidence in the car going forward. I can’t think of anything more I could have asked for.
On the track:
I had made a lot of changes to the car so this was going to be interesting. A new wing and splitter from Good Aero (another new 968 development project), new wider front wheels and tires, stiffer springs, new front camber set up and the new 928 Motorsports’ 968 Stage 2 Supercharger kit. Oh, and I didn’t get any real track time in last year. There was potential for it to be a great day or….
It turned out to be what I consider to be a great day. I really had a lot of confidence in the Supercharger from the beginning. For the first run I took it a little easy with the high RPMs for a few reasons. I wanted to make sure the supercharger wasn’t getting too hot, that the belt wasn’t showing any wear and there are some turns at Mid-Ohio that I hoped I could go a gear taller with the Supercharger and the Aero. It was a 70 degree day and the Supercharger ran at 210 degrees and the belt showed no signs of wear. I was also a little concerned about the front splitter only having 1 ½ “ to 2” of ground clearance but that was good too. (No pun intended with it being a Good Aero kit)
I was relatively tentative with the car but everything about the car was easier to drive. It was kind of stupid to change everything at once but the concept really worked. All of the changes really balanced each other out.
On the second run I got a little more aggressive and learned a little more about the
Supercharger and the brakes. In some ways I almost don’t notice the extra power. You just run with faster cars and don’t have to work as hard. The power comes on very smoothly. There is a real nice extra squirt at the top end of the gears around 5,000 RPM. You can see it on the Dyno graph. I did have to watch it a little. There were a few places I had to remind myself that even though I was going the speed I was used to at that point on the track the gas peddle was not to the floor and I should get it there and there were other places I had to remind myself to lift. That my old routine wasn’t going to work with the extra speed.
I have been concerned with the brakes from the beginning. Even before the Supercharger I had been right at the limit with brake fluid temps. I tend to be hard on brakes and it would not be a bad thing for me to be a little more gentle so I was taking this opportunity to work on that. That didn’t quite do it. The brake pedal got soft and then softer. I had to start to give the brakes an extra little pump etc… I cut the second run session a little short.
The third session I thought I would just get a little more seat time with all of the changes. Take it really easy on the brakes, not push the top speed, experiment with gearing, etc… Things were going well. The car was pulling with a lot of fast cars. And then it started missing! Oh …. ! Head gasket? Temps looked ok. Plugs? Fuel? I pulled into the pits and was a little afraid to open the hood but at first glance everything looked good. No fluid leaks. The Supercharge belt still looked new. The Supercharger temp was still 210 degrees. Oh, there it is: The spark plug wire mounting had come lose and they were getting cut in half by the edge of the supercharger’s upper idler pulley.
It looks like some upgraded brake fluid and a new set of plug wires are in order. I love easy fixes. As I said, a great day at the track!
The experience:
It starts with me taking my car to Carl at 928 Motorsports to have them finish development of their new double sided belt system and their complete stage 2 concept on my 968. I already had a few trips planned to Madison WI but that meant a difficult schedule for Carl. It gave them three weeks to design, fabricate custom parts, do the installation and do all of the tuning on the dyno. I trailered from Columbus, Ohio and got there on Saturday night. Carl and Myles were both there to help me unload. You could immediately see both of their minds working through the details of the design. I have been driving on the track for 18 years now so I have spent a lot of time with capable mechanics, fabricators, tuners etc…and these guys are the real deal. It’s Carl’s business and he tends to do the big picture and mechanical development and Myles is the electronics expert. You can tell they really work well together as a team. I picked up the car, as optimistically scheduled, on my next trip to Madison. They had to work through the weekend but they saved me 20 hours of driving by me not having to make another trip. Upon picking up the car, I had a great experience, their work looked great, the tuning was thorough and I had a lot of confidence in the car going forward. I can’t think of anything more I could have asked for.
On the track:
I had made a lot of changes to the car so this was going to be interesting. A new wing and splitter from Good Aero (another new 968 development project), new wider front wheels and tires, stiffer springs, new front camber set up and the new 928 Motorsports’ 968 Stage 2 Supercharger kit. Oh, and I didn’t get any real track time in last year. There was potential for it to be a great day or….
It turned out to be what I consider to be a great day. I really had a lot of confidence in the Supercharger from the beginning. For the first run I took it a little easy with the high RPMs for a few reasons. I wanted to make sure the supercharger wasn’t getting too hot, that the belt wasn’t showing any wear and there are some turns at Mid-Ohio that I hoped I could go a gear taller with the Supercharger and the Aero. It was a 70 degree day and the Supercharger ran at 210 degrees and the belt showed no signs of wear. I was also a little concerned about the front splitter only having 1 ½ “ to 2” of ground clearance but that was good too. (No pun intended with it being a Good Aero kit)
I was relatively tentative with the car but everything about the car was easier to drive. It was kind of stupid to change everything at once but the concept really worked. All of the changes really balanced each other out.
On the second run I got a little more aggressive and learned a little more about the
Supercharger and the brakes. In some ways I almost don’t notice the extra power. You just run with faster cars and don’t have to work as hard. The power comes on very smoothly. There is a real nice extra squirt at the top end of the gears around 5,000 RPM. You can see it on the Dyno graph. I did have to watch it a little. There were a few places I had to remind myself that even though I was going the speed I was used to at that point on the track the gas peddle was not to the floor and I should get it there and there were other places I had to remind myself to lift. That my old routine wasn’t going to work with the extra speed.
I have been concerned with the brakes from the beginning. Even before the Supercharger I had been right at the limit with brake fluid temps. I tend to be hard on brakes and it would not be a bad thing for me to be a little more gentle so I was taking this opportunity to work on that. That didn’t quite do it. The brake pedal got soft and then softer. I had to start to give the brakes an extra little pump etc… I cut the second run session a little short.
The third session I thought I would just get a little more seat time with all of the changes. Take it really easy on the brakes, not push the top speed, experiment with gearing, etc… Things were going well. The car was pulling with a lot of fast cars. And then it started missing! Oh …. ! Head gasket? Temps looked ok. Plugs? Fuel? I pulled into the pits and was a little afraid to open the hood but at first glance everything looked good. No fluid leaks. The Supercharge belt still looked new. The Supercharger temp was still 210 degrees. Oh, there it is: The spark plug wire mounting had come lose and they were getting cut in half by the edge of the supercharger’s upper idler pulley.
It looks like some upgraded brake fluid and a new set of plug wires are in order. I love easy fixes. As I said, a great day at the track!
Regards.
Raj
04-23-2012, 12:16 PM
#28
Developer
Thread Starter
That little "kick" at 5500 is the Variocam being shut off. We used one of the general purpose Inputs/Outputs to inlcude the Variocam in your Electromotive system, so you or your tuner could control it. Then we set it to mimic OEM function.
We know that Porsche shuts off the Variocam at 5500 rpm, so we decided to mimic that. I think that the little nudge you feel there may be the supercharger being high in its output, and the Variocam backing off. Like you said, you can see it on the Dyno charts.
Because Myles included the Variocam in our wiring and tuning, you can play with it, and see what you like. We did shut it completely off at the dyno just to see what we'd get and there were small losses in the mid-range and no gain overall.
Now you've got the legs to run with a whole new group of cars - and your going to tax those brakes like you never have before. Can't wait to hear what the "package" feels like when you get the brakes sorted out! Its going to be a killer 968!
Thank you for your business and your support.
We know that Porsche shuts off the Variocam at 5500 rpm, so we decided to mimic that. I think that the little nudge you feel there may be the supercharger being high in its output, and the Variocam backing off. Like you said, you can see it on the Dyno charts.
Because Myles included the Variocam in our wiring and tuning, you can play with it, and see what you like. We did shut it completely off at the dyno just to see what we'd get and there were small losses in the mid-range and no gain overall.
Now you've got the legs to run with a whole new group of cars - and your going to tax those brakes like you never have before. Can't wait to hear what the "package" feels like when you get the brakes sorted out! Its going to be a killer 968!
Thank you for your business and your support.
04-23-2012, 04:08 PM
#29
Team Owner
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: one thousand, five hundred miles north of Ft. Lauderdale for the summer.
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Carl.
your determination and dedication with this project is something we don't see often...
great job and congratulations.
od.
your determination and dedication with this project is something we don't see often...
great job and congratulations.
od.