First Driver Event-Track Day - Have Questions
08-07-2011, 11:20 PM
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First Driver Event-Track Day - Have Questions
After being a mild poster and lurking continuously, this is just too good to not post. Spent the last 2 days taking the 968 through its paces at Texas World Speedway. For those of you who race or track your 968, you know what I am talking about. The fun meter was fully pegged. After feeling completely humbled after my first couple of runs, I was managing to clock respectable laps time by the end of the weekend. Much smoother, better braking, setting the suspension, etc. Having multiple family members who track and race heavily, I believe I am 100% hooked. However, I do FULLY realize thinking you are a good driver and then taking it to the track are two very different things. I have raced mtn bikes, dirt bikes, and done some dirt driving=limited help on the track. The instruction I received this weekend simply exponentially increased the learning curve.
So, for the race and track crowd here, I have a few questions. First the details.
94' 968 6S, M030, LSD, 17" Cup II's bone stock (Unless Trevor did something to it I haven't figure out yet
, lowered about 1".
First question: After getting slightly respectable I started really noticing a couple of items that were killing my performance compared to the other drivers around me.
1. Understeer...this got to be really bad with the car plowing heavily, especially in long sweepers with the throttle on and modulating to keep from drifting off the track. After adjusting the koni's to full stiff, and upping my front tire pressure a couple of times it did get better, but still diving and plowing a fair amount. Enough so that individuals commented "your line and approach are strong but the car seems to plow." Even my instructor agreed. I simply just didn't have the set up and quickly found the limits of it.
So, here are my first few thoughts that might help me out on this, and I would love some input from a few experts
1. My front tires are hosed, and I probably shouldn't have run with them to begin with. I will be dropping on 235.40.17 Hankook Ventus V12 Evo's on tomorrow, replacing the old Michelin Pilot Sports (they were 2003's, should have changed them prior...know better next time, please no flaming)
2. A mild camber adjustment. Just enough to help on the track without destroying the streetability of the car. My buddy's has dropped a new suspension on his E46 M3 and turned the camber. I couldn't even come close to holding his line. I would find my self plowing so hard if I tried and would have to let off. Seems this would help a bit
3. Lower it a tad more if there is anything left?
4. Adjust the sway bars, but this could be counterproductive.
5. New springs, as the currents are stock M030 and almost 20 yrs old.
It seems with relatively mild changes, I could carry a more neutral turn in and actually get a bit of throttle oversteer to modulate it if I needed. Simply more control. Stiffening the shock rates and more air did a bit of that and it was a vast improvement. Thoughts? Stack rank of the above. I am a novice, but want to learn more, so any thoughts would be helpful.
So, for the race and track crowd here, I have a few questions. First the details.
94' 968 6S, M030, LSD, 17" Cup II's bone stock (Unless Trevor did something to it I haven't figure out yet
, lowered about 1".First question: After getting slightly respectable I started really noticing a couple of items that were killing my performance compared to the other drivers around me.
1. Understeer...this got to be really bad with the car plowing heavily, especially in long sweepers with the throttle on and modulating to keep from drifting off the track. After adjusting the koni's to full stiff, and upping my front tire pressure a couple of times it did get better, but still diving and plowing a fair amount. Enough so that individuals commented "your line and approach are strong but the car seems to plow." Even my instructor agreed. I simply just didn't have the set up and quickly found the limits of it.
So, here are my first few thoughts that might help me out on this, and I would love some input from a few experts
1. My front tires are hosed, and I probably shouldn't have run with them to begin with. I will be dropping on 235.40.17 Hankook Ventus V12 Evo's on tomorrow, replacing the old Michelin Pilot Sports (they were 2003's, should have changed them prior...know better next time, please no flaming)
2. A mild camber adjustment. Just enough to help on the track without destroying the streetability of the car. My buddy's has dropped a new suspension on his E46 M3 and turned the camber. I couldn't even come close to holding his line. I would find my self plowing so hard if I tried and would have to let off. Seems this would help a bit
3. Lower it a tad more if there is anything left?
4. Adjust the sway bars, but this could be counterproductive.
5. New springs, as the currents are stock M030 and almost 20 yrs old.
It seems with relatively mild changes, I could carry a more neutral turn in and actually get a bit of throttle oversteer to modulate it if I needed. Simply more control. Stiffening the shock rates and more air did a bit of that and it was a vast improvement. Thoughts? Stack rank of the above. I am a novice, but want to learn more, so any thoughts would be helpful.
08-08-2011, 01:02 AM
#2
Nordschleife Master
i would maybe cross post in the 924/944/951/968 forum.. the 968 forum is a little slow right now... also, theres a racing forum with tons of knowledge...
that being said these cars were designed to understeer from the factory so at the very least replacing worn components will help... also maybe look at a more adjustable rear bar? lindsey racing has a 5 position... but i think in the end you're avoiding the main issue which is getting the car back to "stock" after 20 years! try that first imho...
that being said these cars were designed to understeer from the factory so at the very least replacing worn components will help... also maybe look at a more adjustable rear bar? lindsey racing has a 5 position... but i think in the end you're avoiding the main issue which is getting the car back to "stock" after 20 years! try that first imho...
08-08-2011, 01:33 AM
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An M030 968 shouldn't understeer like that on the track, mine certainly doesn't.
Once you have new tires, check all the suspension components and bushings (any original rubber is likely to be shot), replace bits and pieces as needed, get the car corner balanced and aligned (I can give you the alignment specs I use if you want) and then see how it drives.
Also, do you have an open differential or a limited slip?
Once you have new tires, check all the suspension components and bushings (any original rubber is likely to be shot), replace bits and pieces as needed, get the car corner balanced and aligned (I can give you the alignment specs I use if you want) and then see how it drives.
Also, do you have an open differential or a limited slip?
08-08-2011, 11:06 AM
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I agree with you and was surprised at the level of the understeer. Once it was confirmed that it wasn't just me being a newbie, I would however attribute most of it to the tires. Simply old and they really had no place on the track. Those will be replaced this week, so I will get a first hand impression there almost immediately I am also going to get under her and take a hard look at the suspension components for the reasons you said. I checked it out when I received it and saw no major issues, but it wasn't with a real sharp eye at that time.
It does have an Limited Slip. Love to see what your alignment specs. Are you running most of the M030 components, same spring rates, koni's, etc. I am simply curious what all has gone into your car. Obviously the above that you listed as check points. I am not at the point of wanting to convert my car, but do want something competent at the track, and I know this car can be. For me, eliminating a significant amount of the plow would make it about perfect. Of course, then I will want more When I can take full advantage of what the car has to offer and I am through several more HPDE's then I will make a judgement call on how far with this I want to go...If money were no object, I would find a nice 6sp convertible for daily driving and take this car more aggressive...time will tell.
It does have an Limited Slip. Love to see what your alignment specs. Are you running most of the M030 components, same spring rates, koni's, etc. I am simply curious what all has gone into your car. Obviously the above that you listed as check points. I am not at the point of wanting to convert my car, but do want something competent at the track, and I know this car can be. For me, eliminating a significant amount of the plow would make it about perfect. Of course, then I will want more
When I can take full advantage of what the car has to offer and I am through several more HPDE's then I will make a judgement call on how far with this I want to go...If money were no object, I would find a nice 6sp convertible for daily driving and take this car more aggressive...time will tell.
08-08-2011, 12:22 PM
#5
Race Car
Sounds like too much fun! I often think about my old m030 and realy miss it... 
I think the biggest key to reducing understeer would be a track alignment and new tires like the Dunlop Star Spec. Only problem with this is that you commute so much [or at least you did before] that you'd would wear out tires on the inner edge very quickly, especially soft ones.
The stock struts and springs should be fine for now.
I think the biggest key to reducing understeer would be a track alignment and new tires like the Dunlop Star Spec. Only problem with this is that you commute so much [or at least you did before] that you'd would wear out tires on the inner edge very quickly, especially soft ones.
The stock struts and springs should be fine for now.
08-08-2011, 12:41 PM
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Sounds like too much fun! I often think about my old m030 and realy miss it...
I think the biggest key to reducing understeer would be a track alignment and new tires like the Dunlop Star Spec. Only problem with this is that you commute so much [or at least you did before] that you'd would wear out tires on the inner edge very quickly, especially soft ones.
The stock struts and springs should be fine for now.
I think the biggest key to reducing understeer would be a track alignment and new tires like the Dunlop Star Spec. Only problem with this is that you commute so much [or at least you did before] that you'd would wear out tires on the inner edge very quickly, especially soft ones.
The stock struts and springs should be fine for now.
Also, trying to consider what size to run. You had the front widened up a bit and I tend to like that. Still need to learn what I can do with the 17's or if moving to 18's has any merit whatsoever. The tires are more expensive and generally the wheel are going to be heavier. And, if I ever compete in any PCA events (much later) I am going to have to run the 17's anyway...at least I think that's the rules.
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08-08-2011, 03:25 PM
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Would moving to 18"s be any benefit. There is a great set of hollow spoke twist for sale with 8" fronts and 10" rears? Light and more tread to the ground, but more expensive tires. Any thoughts on how that would effect the car?
Long story short, my fronts are totally hosed and I need to do something, so I am trying to figure it all out, so I can make one switch.
Oh, did I mention I need new brake pads as well
Long story short, my fronts are totally hosed and I need to do something, so I am trying to figure it all out, so I can make one switch.
Oh, did I mention I need new brake pads as well
08-08-2011, 04:47 PM
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Take a time out is your best bet. I've been tracking my 968 for 12 years.
Don't try and change 10 things at once or you will never get it right.
Our cars do MUCH better at the track with a fair amount of camber in the front. I run anywhere from -1 to -2 degrees depending on the tires I'm running. RE-11 want about -1 to -1.5 on front and about -3/4 in rear.
Putting MORE tire in the rear will only make your problem worse. I've had anything from 18" back down to 16" wheels and tires on the track. The best set up I've found for fun vs price is running dedicated track rubber on my original 16" wheels. I have 235s on front and 245s on rear. I am running Hoosier R6 "slightly used" from John Berget in Delavan WI. (http://www.jbracingtires.net/) He sells used track rubber at a fraction of new.
Your M030 sway bars are adjustable. You might want someone to look at their settings. Sounds like you might have everything a little too tight. Loose is better in the rear w/LSD. Also, lowering does not equate to better handling. In many cases it makes it worse if not properly. Lowering changes shock rebound, caster angle, steering angle, etc. Don't do it unless you clearly undersatnd all of the dynamics. A well set up M030 car will out handle 90% of anything on the track without major mods.
Hope this helps. Feel free to PM if you want more 'shade tree' advice.
Don't try and change 10 things at once or you will never get it right.
Our cars do MUCH better at the track with a fair amount of camber in the front. I run anywhere from -1 to -2 degrees depending on the tires I'm running. RE-11 want about -1 to -1.5 on front and about -3/4 in rear.
Putting MORE tire in the rear will only make your problem worse. I've had anything from 18" back down to 16" wheels and tires on the track. The best set up I've found for fun vs price is running dedicated track rubber on my original 16" wheels. I have 235s on front and 245s on rear. I am running Hoosier R6 "slightly used" from John Berget in Delavan WI. (http://www.jbracingtires.net/) He sells used track rubber at a fraction of new.
Your M030 sway bars are adjustable. You might want someone to look at their settings. Sounds like you might have everything a little too tight. Loose is better in the rear w/LSD. Also, lowering does not equate to better handling. In many cases it makes it worse if not properly. Lowering changes shock rebound, caster angle, steering angle, etc. Don't do it unless you clearly undersatnd all of the dynamics. A well set up M030 car will out handle 90% of anything on the track without major mods.
Hope this helps. Feel free to PM if you want more 'shade tree' advice.
08-08-2011, 05:25 PM
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Take a time out is your best bet. I've been tracking my 968 for 12 years.
Don't try and change 10 things at once or you will never get it right.
Our cars do MUCH better at the track with a fair amount of camber in the front. I run anywhere from -1 to -2 degrees depending on the tires I'm running. RE-11 want about -1 to -1.5 on front and about -3/4 in rear.
Putting MORE tire in the rear will only make your problem worse. I've had anything from 18" back down to 16" wheels and tires on the track. The best set up I've found for fun vs price is running dedicated track rubber on my original 16" wheels. I have 235s on front and 245s on rear. I am running Hoosier R6 "slightly used" from John Berget in Delavan WI. (http://www.jbracingtires.net/) He sells used track rubber at a fraction of new.
Your M030 sway bars are adjustable. You might want someone to look at their settings. Sounds like you might have everything a little too tight. Loose is better in the rear w/LSD. Also, lowering does not equate to better handling. In many cases it makes it worse if not properly. Lowering changes shock rebound, caster angle, steering angle, etc. Don't do it unless you clearly undersatnd all of the dynamics. A well set up M030 car will out handle 90% of anything on the track without major mods.
Hope this helps. Feel free to PM if you want more 'shade tree' advice.
Don't try and change 10 things at once or you will never get it right.
Our cars do MUCH better at the track with a fair amount of camber in the front. I run anywhere from -1 to -2 degrees depending on the tires I'm running. RE-11 want about -1 to -1.5 on front and about -3/4 in rear.
Putting MORE tire in the rear will only make your problem worse. I've had anything from 18" back down to 16" wheels and tires on the track. The best set up I've found for fun vs price is running dedicated track rubber on my original 16" wheels. I have 235s on front and 245s on rear. I am running Hoosier R6 "slightly used" from John Berget in Delavan WI. (http://www.jbracingtires.net/) He sells used track rubber at a fraction of new.
Your M030 sway bars are adjustable. You might want someone to look at their settings. Sounds like you might have everything a little too tight. Loose is better in the rear w/LSD. Also, lowering does not equate to better handling. In many cases it makes it worse if not properly. Lowering changes shock rebound, caster angle, steering angle, etc. Don't do it unless you clearly undersatnd all of the dynamics. A well set up M030 car will out handle 90% of anything on the track without major mods.
Hope this helps. Feel free to PM if you want more 'shade tree' advice.
Thanks for the offer!
08-10-2011, 05:11 PM
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Update
So, first and foremost, thanks to everyone who reached out on this. I had some excellent PM conversations that have helped me make my initial decisions.
I will be installing Bridgestone RE-11's on the existing Cup II's, replacing my worn out pads with either Pagid Orange or PF (haven't made the call on that one yet) and having the camber mildly adjusting based on some feedback from the board. After the next track visit, I will get a chance to report back if my understeer has been eliminated. Still need to dial in exactly what camber adjustment I will do, but have a couple of feedbacks I need to look back to....
Oh, yeah bushings are going to be replaced in front right.
I will be installing Bridgestone RE-11's on the existing Cup II's, replacing my worn out pads with either Pagid Orange or PF (haven't made the call on that one yet) and having the camber mildly adjusting based on some feedback from the board. After the next track visit, I will get a chance to report back if my understeer has been eliminated. Still need to dial in exactly what camber adjustment I will do, but have a couple of feedbacks I need to look back to....
Oh, yeah bushings are going to be replaced in front right.
08-21-2011, 01:51 AM
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New RE-11's are on. Wow, huge difference already. Now off for suspension check and alignment and new pads. Thanks for all the help guys. Trevor, I owe you a call. Tons of travel the last two weeks.
08-21-2011, 03:09 AM
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S2000s? One time I did a track day at Laguna Seca with a standard, plain-jane 968 and it was some kind of S2000 club DE-day. There were at least 15 of them there, and all parked together. Most of them were in my run group, and I walked every single one of them. Spanked. Corners, straights, I ate so many of them, at night I shat a Honda Ridgeline.
Come on dude, don't hold back. Go get 'em!
I mean this in the most helpful way possible, but I think the main thing you need is more track time. But I'm sure you got plenty of (good) advice already, probably more than you can process. A 968 is capable of crazy understeer or crazy oversteer, it depends on what you do with it. There's a lot of subconscious driving habits that you'll have to recognize, and modify. I myself suck on the track but I'm learning.
Come on dude, don't hold back
. Go get 'em!I mean this in the most helpful way possible, but I think the main thing you need is more track time. But I'm sure you got plenty of (good) advice already, probably more than you can process. A 968 is capable of crazy understeer or crazy oversteer, it depends on what you do with it. There's a lot of subconscious driving habits that you'll have to recognize, and modify. I myself suck on the track but I'm learning.
08-21-2011, 05:16 PM
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I will be installing Bridgestone RE-11's on the existing Cup II's, replacing my worn out pads with either Pagid Orange or PF (haven't made the call on that one yet) and having the camber mildly adjusting based on some feedback from the board. After the next track visit, I will get a chance to report back if my understeer has been eliminated. Still need to dial in exactly what camber adjustment I will do, but have a couple of feedbacks I need to look back to....
Oh, yeah bushings are going to be replaced in front right.
Oh, yeah bushings are going to be replaced in front right.
My $0.02
-Chuck
08-21-2011, 08:36 PM
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Warning, your getting very close to the edge, one slip and down the slope you go. Just starting out I would just do minor changes, nothing major, I wouldn't even go to R compounds the first year or two. If you start thinking about getting more serious just look for a prepared race car.
I spent stupid money on my 911 before wanting to jump in to racing, didn't want to race the 911 but found a nicely prepared.
That said there are some good suspension tuning guides out there, changes you would think that address understeer, etc.
Here are just a couple:
http://www.se-r.net/car_info/suspension_tuning.html
http://autox.vinland.ca/information/...ting_guide.pdf
I spent stupid money on my 911 before wanting to jump in to racing, didn't want to race the 911 but found a nicely prepared.
That said there are some good suspension tuning guides out there, changes you would think that address understeer, etc.
Here are just a couple:
http://www.se-r.net/car_info/suspension_tuning.html
http://autox.vinland.ca/information/...ting_guide.pdf