Thinking about headers???
02-23-2010, 11:24 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
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Stew,
The 968 is old and rare. Not many were built and the market for aftermarket is small. Up untill the recent years....there werent many modifications out there for our cars. For companys like Tubi, the profit isnt there and creating a header for our car just isnt worth it from a business standpoint. Not many would spend that kind of money, especially if the gains are not any better or hardly better then whats out there already. I don't know a single person that has an SFR header on the 968. I almost bought one myself. But it cost an arm and leg at the time and there was no proof that it would give me the gains i was looking for. I didnt want to spend the money only to find out it was a waste of money. Once i'm finished with my car, i may buy one to play with. If it makes more power then my current header...it would be money well spent. Otherwise i'll take a loss and sell it for whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
It would be wise for SFR to dyno test a 968 with and without their header, advertise their gains.
another option is CSM. (Chris Schuh Motorsports). They make a header for our cars which is almost a clone of the Stahl Header. CSM uses 304 stainless steel. The header is Tig Welded. CSM claims a 4HP gain over the Stahl header.
The 968 is old and rare. Not many were built and the market for aftermarket is small. Up untill the recent years....there werent many modifications out there for our cars. For companys like Tubi, the profit isnt there and creating a header for our car just isnt worth it from a business standpoint. Not many would spend that kind of money, especially if the gains are not any better or hardly better then whats out there already. I don't know a single person that has an SFR header on the 968. I almost bought one myself. But it cost an arm and leg at the time and there was no proof that it would give me the gains i was looking for. I didnt want to spend the money only to find out it was a waste of money. Once i'm finished with my car, i may buy one to play with. If it makes more power then my current header...it would be money well spent. Otherwise i'll take a loss and sell it for whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
It would be wise for SFR to dyno test a 968 with and without their header, advertise their gains.
another option is CSM. (Chris Schuh Motorsports). They make a header for our cars which is almost a clone of the Stahl Header. CSM uses 304 stainless steel. The header is Tig Welded. CSM claims a 4HP gain over the Stahl header.
02-23-2010, 11:45 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
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Stew,
The 968 is old and rare. Not many were built and the market for aftermarket is small. Up untill the recent years....there werent many modifications out there for our cars. For companys like Tubi, the profit isnt there and creating a header for our car just isnt worth it from a business standpoint. Not many would spend that kind of money, especially if the gains are not any better or hardly better then whats out there already. I don't know a single person that has an SFR header on the 968. I almost bought one myself. But it cost an arm and leg at the time and there was no proof that it would give me the gains i was looking for. I didnt want to spend the money only to find out it was a waste of money. Once i'm finished with my car, i may buy one to play with. If it makes more power then my current header...it would be money well spent. Otherwise i'll take a loss and sell it for whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
It would be wise for SFR to dyno test a 968 with and without their header, advertise their gains.
another option is CSM. (Chris Schuh Motorsports). They make a header for our cars which is almost a clone of the Stahl Header. CSM uses 304 stainless steel. The header is Tig Welded. CSM claims a 4HP gain over the Stahl header.
The 968 is old and rare. Not many were built and the market for aftermarket is small. Up untill the recent years....there werent many modifications out there for our cars. For companys like Tubi, the profit isnt there and creating a header for our car just isnt worth it from a business standpoint. Not many would spend that kind of money, especially if the gains are not any better or hardly better then whats out there already. I don't know a single person that has an SFR header on the 968. I almost bought one myself. But it cost an arm and leg at the time and there was no proof that it would give me the gains i was looking for. I didnt want to spend the money only to find out it was a waste of money. Once i'm finished with my car, i may buy one to play with. If it makes more power then my current header...it would be money well spent. Otherwise i'll take a loss and sell it for whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
It would be wise for SFR to dyno test a 968 with and without their header, advertise their gains.
another option is CSM. (Chris Schuh Motorsports). They make a header for our cars which is almost a clone of the Stahl Header. CSM uses 304 stainless steel. The header is Tig Welded. CSM claims a 4HP gain over the Stahl header.
From our point of view, Tim would be wise to dyno a 968 before and after with his products, but I don't think SFR makes that much money off of 968s to dedicate time and resources to doing this. I'm sure he'd be better off spending his time building those 800hp 350z's, since there are probably more 350z owners buying his parts than there are 968 owners period.
02-24-2010, 12:22 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
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Stew,
There are many more 951's out there then there are 968's. Many more people modify 951's as well. They are way easier to get power out of.
Todd,
agreed on SFR spending their time money elsewhere. From a business standpoint, it doesnt make much sense. As for pricing on their stage 2 header, i may be mistaken. It has been a very long time since i bought my header and was shopping for one a few years ago. For some reason 2.5K is stuck in my head. I do recall the difference in price btwn the SFR header and stahl header being very significant.
There are many more 951's out there then there are 968's. Many more people modify 951's as well. They are way easier to get power out of.
Todd,
agreed on SFR spending their time money elsewhere. From a business standpoint, it doesnt make much sense. As for pricing on their stage 2 header, i may be mistaken. It has been a very long time since i bought my header and was shopping for one a few years ago. For some reason 2.5K is stuck in my head. I do recall the difference in price btwn the SFR header and stahl header being very significant.
02-24-2010, 10:38 AM
#21
Happily Amused
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Comparing headers on a forced induction car vs a naturally aspirated car is
vs
Stahl header was designed for the 968 Firehawk series cars if I remember correctly and while I'd love mine to be made out of titanium for weight savings, I'm not going racing for $$$ so it's not going to happen.
RSBarn chip and header paired with a different cat and decent exhaust made gains but I do not remember the numbers and no idea where my charts are. Mine is actually making less now since I am back on the stock exhaust at the moment.
vs
Stahl header was designed for the 968 Firehawk series cars if I remember correctly and while I'd love mine to be made out of titanium for weight savings, I'm not going racing for $$$ so it's not going to happen.
RSBarn chip and header paired with a different cat and decent exhaust made gains but I do not remember the numbers and no idea where my charts are. Mine is actually making less now since I am back on the stock exhaust at the moment.
02-24-2010, 10:49 AM
#22
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Its funny when some one has the audacity to tell another he doesnt have a clue about anything, but then goes and justifies the SFR headers worth (in regards to the 968) based on how well it performs on a 951. 
Perhaps we should all buy 3" exhausts as well. They work so well on the 951.
Perhaps we should all buy 3" exhausts as well. They work so well on the 951.
02-24-2010, 12:00 PM
#23
In my opinion, you be much better off trying to remove weight from the car rather than trying to get the modest gains you would see out of a set of headers on a relatively unmodified car (ie: no head work or high profile cams, etc). Porsche did a very nice job designing the intake/exhaust system on these cars and had resources FAR beyond that of the vendors that are trying to support us when designing them (and thats not a slam on the vendors). Unlike the muscle cars of the 60's/70's when you'd see a decent gain just by swapping out the cast iron manifold for an aftermarket tube header (thus making headers such a popular modification for most people), our cars already have the benefits of tube headers designed with modern technology.
Thats not to say headers don't have their place, but its more useful as a tool for shifting the hp/torque curve by modifying runner length, but thats typically only useful on race cars. In a naturally aspirated street car, its my opinion that headers might increase peak hp by a max of 5-8 hp at the top end of the rev limit, at the cost of lower end torque. Thats moving in the wrong direction as far as I am concerned since I don't consider that to be useable power unless you are a track rat.
The other thing that often gets lost in these discussions is that headers often get installed at the same time as other modifications, such as new exhaust/muffler, making it impossible to say which one actually provided the gains, if any. You'd be surprised how many folks will percieve a chance in the exhaust sound as a "hp gain", the butt dyno is not a very accurate tuning tool.
Replacing a restrictive muffle/cat for a lighter, free flowing one can make a bigger difference than improving the headers. Karl at Imagine Auto did a dyno test of a 951 running a 2.5" exhaust system with the cat removed and then installed and tested a 3" exhaust system (I am pretty sure it was Lindseys exhaust system) and saw a whopping 3 hp increase, iirc. Removing the cat and installing a test pipe on the 2.5" exhaust on that car yielded something like 25hp.
Lastly, the time honored "butt dyno" should officially have its name changed to the "wallet dyno". The prevailing thought seems to be that if its shiny and different and you spent money on it, that it has to be worth 'x' hp. The more you spend, the more hp you are supposed get. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in modding your car and I hope y'all have fun doing so, but please be a bit skeptical when viewing claims from vendors and the "general wisdom" on RL.
Fair disclosure, I have NOT replaced a header on any 968, so I am not qualified to speak about any specific 968 related product offered by any vendor, nor am I trying to flame any vendor for trying to meet a need in the marketplace. I do have firsthand experience with 944 and 951 aftermarket header and exhaust systems, I am approach 20 years of owning and playing with 944/951/968's and a background in mechanical engineering with an emphasis in fluid dynamics and I have firsthand experience with some of vendors being mentioned in this thread. Based on that, its my opinion that your money would be better spent elsewhere if you are looking for performance gains on a relatively stock 968.
Thats not to say headers don't have their place, but its more useful as a tool for shifting the hp/torque curve by modifying runner length, but thats typically only useful on race cars. In a naturally aspirated street car, its my opinion that headers might increase peak hp by a max of 5-8 hp at the top end of the rev limit, at the cost of lower end torque. Thats moving in the wrong direction as far as I am concerned since I don't consider that to be useable power unless you are a track rat.
The other thing that often gets lost in these discussions is that headers often get installed at the same time as other modifications, such as new exhaust/muffler, making it impossible to say which one actually provided the gains, if any. You'd be surprised how many folks will percieve a chance in the exhaust sound as a "hp gain", the butt dyno is not a very accurate tuning tool.
Replacing a restrictive muffle/cat for a lighter, free flowing one can make a bigger difference than improving the headers. Karl at Imagine Auto did a dyno test of a 951 running a 2.5" exhaust system with the cat removed and then installed and tested a 3" exhaust system (I am pretty sure it was Lindseys exhaust system) and saw a whopping 3 hp increase, iirc. Removing the cat and installing a test pipe on the 2.5" exhaust on that car yielded something like 25hp.
Lastly, the time honored "butt dyno" should officially have its name changed to the "wallet dyno".
The prevailing thought seems to be that if its shiny and different and you spent money on it, that it has to be worth 'x' hp. The more you spend, the more hp you are supposed get. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in modding your car and I hope y'all have fun doing so, but please be a bit skeptical when viewing claims from vendors and the "general wisdom" on RL.Fair disclosure, I have NOT replaced a header on any 968, so I am not qualified to speak about any specific 968 related product offered by any vendor, nor am I trying to flame any vendor for trying to meet a need in the marketplace. I do have firsthand experience with 944 and 951 aftermarket header and exhaust systems, I am approach 20 years of owning and playing with 944/951/968's and a background in mechanical engineering with an emphasis in fluid dynamics and I have firsthand experience with some of vendors being mentioned in this thread. Based on that, its my opinion that your money would be better spent elsewhere if you are looking for performance gains on a relatively stock 968.
02-24-2010, 12:05 PM
#24
Happily Amused
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If I remember correctly (getting old) you have to change the cat if you install the Stahl header not sure on SFR. I honestly do not remember if I did the cat first or at the same time as the header. I do know that my car had an increase in HP and Torque across the band after the header and chip upgrade.
02-24-2010, 06:48 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
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I installed a Stahl Header along with a full exhaust system & stage 2 chip on my car. I can't speak from personal experiance on the gains of the header alone. But there are dyno charts out there if you search for them.
My car had the intake mod. as well as a high compression head with other work done to it prior to installing the header/exhaust. So my gains would differ from others. Without a header, but with other mods (such as cams, head work, etc) you are restircting the cars potential.
I would not recommend just a Header alone. The stage 2 chip is designed to optimize the stahl header. Anyone who has other modifications done, i would suggest you have your car dyno tuned and a custom chip mapped for your specific car. This is the route i took with mine.
My car had the intake mod. as well as a high compression head with other work done to it prior to installing the header/exhaust. So my gains would differ from others. Without a header, but with other mods (such as cams, head work, etc) you are restircting the cars potential.
I would not recommend just a Header alone. The stage 2 chip is designed to optimize the stahl header. Anyone who has other modifications done, i would suggest you have your car dyno tuned and a custom chip mapped for your specific car. This is the route i took with mine.
02-24-2010, 09:17 PM
#26
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High compression head? Do you mean a shaved/milled head which increases the compression ratio??
Unless you add material to the combustion chamber, how can you have a high compression head?
Raj
Unless you add material to the combustion chamber, how can you have a high compression head?
Raj
02-25-2010, 06:01 PM
#28
Bannana Shine
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from my expensive experience,they dont worth the few BHP without changing the complete exhaust to 3 inch with straight through mufflers, and connecting it to the twin downpipe connection thus removing the internal-yes internal factory
44mm oval restriction inside the main pipe.
They may look good ,but unless someone presents real time power graphs
before and and after fixing i feel is a waste of money ,without any extensive mods on this particular engine.
44mm oval restriction inside the main pipe.
They may look good ,but unless someone presents real time power graphs
before and and after fixing i feel is a waste of money ,without any extensive mods on this particular engine.
Clearing out all those devices from your exhaust may free up your breathing for more power and save weight...but I've got to point out that, for only a mild increase in power, you make the car shockingly loud. Around town I cruise at about 1200 RPM, never rev it past 2000, in a desperate attempt to not got a noise ticket.
And honestly, a 3-liter straight-4 doesn't sound good unmuffled.
Although...at 5000 RPM, it may not sound good, but at least it's TERRIFYING.
02-25-2010, 06:06 PM
#30
Bannana Shine
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No cat, no resonator. Some sort of "muffler" that is essentially straight-through, doesn't really do much. Can't remember where it came from.