Damian in NJ

First this, read the note about the Hartge conversion. I bolded the highlights,

The Hartge conversion stokes up the S's fire to at least 200bhp; the great thing about German tuners is that they put their products through a rigorous 'TUV' certification process that guarantees the claims made for the mods as well as testing their durability. In fact, Birds, the UK Hartge agent, reckons that most of the Cooper S conversions already undertaken in Germany have come in at 212-215bhp on the dyno.

Here from the US TuV site

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flash968

i've read that info from the site before, looking for the answer to this - i think you are misreading - it clearly says "can be used" not "must be used" - a very large difference

there is no clear mention anywhere about which tests are conducted under any given certification, and there are lots of different ones, and certainly nothing requiring performance verification

the only test that it seems is necessary to sell exhaust systems in germany is emmisions qualification

and with that, in the interests of site peace, i think i'm done with this subject

RajDatta

Damian, they recently had an article in Roundel (BMW owners magazine) on Fikse, the wheel company. They also said the same thing. Fikse, from day one built their wheels to the highest standards in the inductry, TUV. It went on to say that in order to pass TUV standards, you must go through a rigirous inspection process to back up your claims.
I have driven your car with the Cargraphic system and its easy to see that you get the claimed performance increase. Its not for everyone though, only the once seeking the highest quality pieces and willing to pay some serious $$ for it.
It would be safe to assume your system will last as long as a factory system would. The materials used and the workmanship is top notch.
Raj

Damian in NJ

The Hartge conversion stokes up the S's fire to at least 200bhp; the great thing about German tuners is that they put their products through a rigorous 'TUV' certification process that guarantees the claims made for the mods as well as testing their durability. In fact, Birds, the UK Hartge agent, reckons that most of the Cooper S conversions already undertaken in Germany have come in at 212-215bhp on the dyno.

In a similar interest, I'll just point to the above highlighted text and let it speak for itself.

flash968

well, i thought i was done - i don't think this has to be argumentative though, and really only want to get to the bottom of this - i think it is in everyone's best interests to have a clear understanding of this, supported by facts

please note, that at this time i am not disputing the figures - i merely cannot find anything from TUV to substantiate the assertion regarding performance claim testing

what is the source of the text above? i fail to understand how that review of a product proves anything - was that written by TUV?

please show me, in some form of official TUV text, where it says that products MUST have performance verification, or that performance verification is a component of ALL such TUV testing - i am unable to find it - heck, i'd even sign off on something from cargraphic that listed what tests the cert came with if it included performance verification

then, regardless of any testing done here to the contrary, i'll be happy to then believe what you say, and accept the figures they claim - on that subject though, i haven't seen anything from them either, and would love to see those too - you would think that if they paid all this money to go through this crazy testing to verify performance claims, that they would be very quick to publish the results - do you have those charts?

if all of this does turn out to be true, i would then completely understand the pricing of units originating in germany, as the costs of such testing would be staggering, and i also pity anyone from germany subjected to this - it would seriously hinder the ability to do business in a small market like this one

Damian in NJ

http://www.bmpdesign.com/technical/t...an_exhaust.php

Especially this part

Fitment: Select your system from a manufacturer that is in the business of developing single application exhaust systems. To reduce cost many companies adapt a common system to fit as many vehicles as possible. This results in fitment problems and a loss in performance. The best choice is a European manufacturer. In most cases these companies have their systems T.U.V. approved. This approval is similar to our Department of Transportation. To pass this approval, fitment, hanger integrity, and performance gains are all tested prior to the product being available to the public. T.U.V. approval assures you that the system will pass any sound decibel test that may be an issue in your city or state.

T.U.V approved for fitment, hanger integrity, and peformance gains.

I've emailed TUV directly, so hopefully they can link me to their own information. Cargraphic USA no longer has the system for sale on their website, not surprising as the cost was way too much for the US 968 market to bear.

Several US exhaust system vendors have both TUV and non TUV approved stuff for sale. Wanna guess which ones perform better and last longer? (May not be the cheapest, though, if that's a concern.)

rpm's S2

Hesitantly I weigh in...

One reason for TuV certification is the German tax system. My experience in the 80s and early 90s was that car owners paid taxes based on several factors, including engine displacement and performance. Modify your car, pay a higher tax rate. When owners got their cars inspected following modifications, TuV used their extensive test data to calculate the higher tax rate for the car. This necesitates fairly strict and accurate testing.

My German friends would often add modifications to their cars right after passing TuV (which was every 2 years - no idea if that is still true or what effect increasing Euro parliamentary law has had on this) to avoid higher tax rate for a few years. I even recall my secretary adding sport seats and a spoiler to her Opel Corsa and complaining that her taxes would go up!

One thing I do know - TuV certification really means something. Lots of aftermarket stuff in Germany does not pass. Lots of cars do not pass their semi-annual inspections. I remember watching as a TuV inspector got in the pit under a friend's BMW 3.0 CSi and began violently poking the underbody with a screwdriver-like spike checking for rust. If the spike pierced the floor the car would fail. It went through in several spots before the inspector stopped!

One last point on this specific discussion - trying to determine a final answer from these different pasted passages is difficult, possibly due to translation problems. Perhaps we can agree this is an inquiry whose final answer will be hidden in semantics?

flash968

again, if there are tests, there are lists on the cert and results that can be printed - i'm not going to take the word of some vendor who is interpreting things, potentially to their own benefit, without them

i look forward to the response from TUV - hopefully it will include how they can guarantee something like this - i wonder what they would do in the event of a car that did not show those gains? it could be good news for the guy who pulled the system off of his car because he got losses

no worries ralph - i just want the real story

Damian in NJ

Well, other than documentation from TUV, many vendors refer to the fact that the extra performance of their products have been proven to TUV, thereby guaranteeing the results. They use this as a selling point. TUV certification is just that, if you're not certified it doesn't mean you don't have similar results-it just means you can say anything you want without independent backup. (Chip tests, exhaust comparisons come to mind).

We've heard from US vendors who claim competing companies make products that reduce power/torque, yadda yadda-but once again you're just taking someones word, which can obviously be slanted. This gets eliminated if said part is TUV approved.

flash968

i think you are drawing a conclusion not based in fact - to say that TUV certification equates to performance gain proof is not yet supported by anything that lists what tests they do or any test results from any cert

i think they offer that testing, but that it is not a part of the necessary testing to be allowed to sell in germany - the site reads like there is a menu of things to choose from - some to get a basic approval cert, and others for marketing purposes

this seems to me a lot like an FDA approved weight loss drug - approved as safe - doesn't mean it's a guarantee that you'll lose weight

as to the last, i was not referring a vendor, but rather someone who yanked the system off of their car due to losses they experienced

Damian in NJ

In most cases these companies have their systems T.U.V. approved. This approval is similar to our Department of Transportation. To pass this approval, fitment, hanger integrity, and performance gains are all tested prior to the product being available to the public.

If your part is TUV approved, then it does what you claim it does. Or you can sell something that is not TUV approved, and then you get into the kind of 'he said, she said' stuff we see between vendors of similar products who each claim a performance advantage and slag each others products.

Do I have a cert from Cargraphic via TUV? Nope, and I haven't seen any other Porsche tuning part that comes with one either. Was my Cargraphic 100 cell cat and exhaust TUV approved? Yup. Did they tell me to expect 12-15 hp over stock depending on the condition of my motor? Yup. Do I expect that is the gain? Yup.

Are there any other vendors of 968 exhausts that have TUV approval, verifying their performance claims? Not that I know. Does the possibility exist that other systems perform as well as the Cargraphic combination? I would guess so, but I would want independent confirmation rather than trust the claim from the vendor who made it.

biotechee

No disrespect to either of you guys, but enough already.

Damian is happy with his exhaust, Flash is happy with his. Can we not leave it at that?

You both have awesome cars so go out and enjoy the damn things for an hour or two!



(sorry for the emoticons- they get addictive every now and then!)

Damian in NJ

Bio, long time no see. I'm not saying mine is better than his, I'm just talking about TUV and what it means. SFR, Lindsey, RSB, Borla, Magnaflow, Midas, B&B may be better or worse than what I have-but mine does what they say it does, and if you ask a, b, c, d, e, f, or g their opinion on the others you get into a big can of worms. TUV certification takes Cargraphic out of the unknown.

biotechee

I'm always lurking here (more in the 993 forum than anywhere) as well as all the other '68 forums... just don't have much to add since I haven't really been driving my car or doing any mods per se. My youngest just turned 1 and I am currently finishing my basement so I'm spending free time with other things.

I understand both sides of this exchange, I was just hoping it would end before it gets too far out of hand. I have no doubt that your exhaust does what it is supposed to do- Cargraphic has an excellent rep and they would probably not be in business if they sold garbage or things that didn't do what there are purported to do. Same goes for B&B, etc.

Again, no disrespect to you or Bob.

P.S. Ended up going with an Omega per your recommendation last Spring- Very VERY happy camper... Got a SeMP GMT and love it! Wish I could get more!

flash968

no worries - i'm done here - clearly i am not getting anywhere - all we get are pastes of text from non-authority - we don't even get anything from cargraphic that shows these gains - so, it's time for me to let it go

until TUV authored proof comes out, i will remain under the impression that the tests here are accurate, and that the required TUV cert on exhaust is limited to dB level, emmissions qualification, etc