968 Performance Chips - 7100A, 7700AT
02-09-2006, 09:39 PM
#31
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huh? i have not done any such thing - no chip company is my sponsor - no chip company is an advertiser of the magazine - i have not mentioned any of my sponsors here - i do not comment on products if i have a sponsor that makes a competing product
i am not out to bash vendors - i do expect them to be honest, and support any claims - i don't see the problem here
i am not out to bash vendors - i do expect them to be honest, and support any claims - i don't see the problem here
02-09-2006, 10:08 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
No Promax customer is complaining, they are very happy with the product. But for some reason you keep bashing the chip. We do not want to hear it, please go.
02-09-2006, 10:20 PM
#33
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i am not bashing the chip - learn to read - i just chose a better one
i am challenging unsupported performance claims that are in direct conflict with proven and confirmed data
you are free to stop listening, but until those claims are either supported or deleted, i'll continue to pursue this in any and all means possible - it is not fair for anybody to try to make people think they can get 22hp out of a chip - it just isn't going to happen
it is claims like this that give the industry a bad name, and EXACTLY why just 2 years ago nobody thought chips did anything, and in fact, the "experts" here said they did little to nothing
i am challenging unsupported performance claims that are in direct conflict with proven and confirmed data
you are free to stop listening, but until those claims are either supported or deleted, i'll continue to pursue this in any and all means possible - it is not fair for anybody to try to make people think they can get 22hp out of a chip - it just isn't going to happen
it is claims like this that give the industry a bad name, and EXACTLY why just 2 years ago nobody thought chips did anything, and in fact, the "experts" here said they did little to nothing
02-09-2006, 11:01 PM
#34
This is going nowhere.
Bob, you should give it a rest for a while. No one is harmed by purchasing either chip - they are both good - as you yourself have said. From all accounts, Andrew at Promax provides an outstanding product and excellent customer service. Slight variations in horsepower and torque vary from car to car, dyno to dyno, and day to day. There is no true answer to this debate, and even if there were it would be too slight to matter. If anything, your passionate desire to be right on this topic has only served to harm the very product that you favor and sell more of the chip that you denigrate.
This constant bickering is harming our entire small community - a community that I enjoy and appreciate. It should stop here and now.
Bob, you should give it a rest for a while. No one is harmed by purchasing either chip - they are both good - as you yourself have said. From all accounts, Andrew at Promax provides an outstanding product and excellent customer service. Slight variations in horsepower and torque vary from car to car, dyno to dyno, and day to day. There is no true answer to this debate, and even if there were it would be too slight to matter. If anything, your passionate desire to be right on this topic has only served to harm the very product that you favor and sell more of the chip that you denigrate.
This constant bickering is harming our entire small community - a community that I enjoy and appreciate. It should stop here and now.
02-09-2006, 11:28 PM
#35
Promax, let Flash be, but please answer his challenge on the claims you're representing. As far as testing is concerned, and regardless of potential conflict of interest, Flash is the only member of the community who actually got cracking on the testing, for that only fact he deserves credit and benefit of the doubt.
Promax is a business representing a product with a clear interest in increasing sales and profitability, enough to cast reasonable doubt over the hp increase claims (all of which are nearly unverifyable and past vendors have often grossly inflated numbers for marketing purposes), on the other hand Flash is an enthusiast challenging a vendor's representations based on personal factual testing. Flash is undoubtly a more independant and credible source of info on actual chip performance than Promax and I have no reason to doubt his honesty. This said, Promax should be able to answer.
Enough bashing and let Promax settle this elegantly and address Flash's questions. We'll gladly move on.
Regards,
Chris
Promax is a business representing a product with a clear interest in increasing sales and profitability, enough to cast reasonable doubt over the hp increase claims (all of which are nearly unverifyable and past vendors have often grossly inflated numbers for marketing purposes), on the other hand Flash is an enthusiast challenging a vendor's representations based on personal factual testing. Flash is undoubtly a more independant and credible source of info on actual chip performance than Promax and I have no reason to doubt his honesty. This said, Promax should be able to answer.
Enough bashing and let Promax settle this elegantly and address Flash's questions. We'll gladly move on.
Regards,
Chris
02-10-2006, 12:32 AM
#36
Nordschleife Master
Anyone ever notice that Speed 6 claims 15-20 rwHP increase with the racerX chip.
Cut and pasted directly from their website
____________________________________________________
Racer X 968 Performance Chip Shootout Winner
It is here. The chip that won the 968 chip shootout again all the others...(see www.968.net or 968forums.com for details and dyno results).
The Racer chip upgrade provides your car with 15 to 20 horsepower gain at the wheels and improved torque to go along with it. These are the only chips we sell after testing the rest. They have never lost a head-to-head shootout with any others on the market. See for yourself why these are the gold standard for 968 chips. The is the best chip around...period and you will see why it delivers.
Get it now for only $149 as a special thank you to Flash and the 968.net members for waiting soooo long for the chip shootout to finally go to press.
_____________________________________________________
Here's the website http://www.andale.com/stores/sf_item...0967939&mode=1
Flash - can we have your opinions on their claim as well?
Cut and pasted directly from their website
____________________________________________________
Racer X 968 Performance Chip Shootout Winner
It is here. The chip that won the 968 chip shootout again all the others...(see www.968.net or 968forums.com for details and dyno results).
The Racer chip upgrade provides your car with 15 to 20 horsepower gain at the wheels and improved torque to go along with it. These are the only chips we sell after testing the rest. They have never lost a head-to-head shootout with any others on the market. See for yourself why these are the gold standard for 968 chips. The is the best chip around...period and you will see why it delivers.
Get it now for only $149 as a special thank you to Flash and the 968.net members for waiting soooo long for the chip shootout to finally go to press.
_____________________________________________________
Here's the website http://www.andale.com/stores/sf_item...0967939&mode=1
Flash - can we have your opinions on their claim as well?
02-10-2006, 01:33 AM
#37
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yes - that is the first i had seen of that - i am not happy about it, especially since he is using my data, and it clearly does not show that much increase - i will be on the phone with chris tomorrow to get that corrected - thank you
02-10-2006, 04:36 AM
#38
Racer
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Kit_Chris
Enough bashing and let Promax settle this elegantly and address Flash's questions. We'll gladly move on.
This thread started with me posting some info on the 968 chip products we supply. I also posted a dyno chart that was the result of an independently carried out test (by a customer that purchased a 7100R chip). There are others here in the UK and Europe that also claim increases of over 20bhp.
Power, torque and overall performance gains vary from car to car. What really matters is what the driver can feel after fitting a product like this. In that respect, our product scores higly. As the ProMAX chip improves overall throttle response and provides a wider torque spread - it simply makes the car perform better. Not only that, but all drivers can appreciate the difference.
We have not focussed our efforts in the pursuit of ultimate bhp - why?, becuase drivers don't actually want (or need) this (we did do our research before hand). Net result, we focussed all our efforts on getting the smoothest and most drivable result from the car. I think this is why the product is so popular.
However, the chip still achieves good maximum bhp - even in Bob's tests. The difference in ultimate bhp between the ProMAX chip and Bob's test winner was very minimal (and again, was the result of Bob's test - could be very different elsewhere). I'm not at all convinced that 2-3 peak bhp really matters.
I think if drivers compared these chips back to back on the road (which is where it matters) - they would possibly have a different opinion to Bob. Dyno tests are only a small part of the story.
The ProMAX chips are safe and work well. Bob's opinions always get some heated debate going (which is always great publicity for us). All I can do is continue to supply good value product with good levels of customer support. We've never had a chip returned and all the feedback has been very positive. Just enjoy whilst you still can! :-)
All the best.
Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com
02-10-2006, 12:36 PM
#39
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without a controlled and measured baseline, matching the conditions of the other run, the data is meaningless - i have runs that show over 30hp gains with the other chip - of course, the data is erroneous, as one of the factors got away from us early on, until we corrected how to control it
you cannot call one run "typical" - that's called an anomoly - the fact is that typical gains are 13
and i am not talking about a 2-3 hp discrepancy - max gain is 13 or so NOT 22 - this was done of 4 different cars, and they all showed the same gains - that's a lot more than a 2-3 difference
so, all of those chips that threw the check engine light never got returned? i guess that's possible, and they just got replaced instead - by the way, chris has never has any of his returned either
the chip is a good chip, especially the 7100 - no arguing that - i've never said otherwise - there are plenty of people very happy with it - i've said i prefer the one that puts out more for my car, but that's all - it's only the numbers that are in question - all my comments have been about the quantitative, and not the qualitative - correct the numbers, and i have no problem
you cannot call one run "typical" - that's called an anomoly - the fact is that typical gains are 13
and i am not talking about a 2-3 hp discrepancy - max gain is 13 or so NOT 22 - this was done of 4 different cars, and they all showed the same gains - that's a lot more than a 2-3 difference
so, all of those chips that threw the check engine light never got returned? i guess that's possible, and they just got replaced instead - by the way, chris has never has any of his returned either
the chip is a good chip, especially the 7100 - no arguing that - i've never said otherwise - there are plenty of people very happy with it - i've said i prefer the one that puts out more for my car, but that's all - it's only the numbers that are in question - all my comments have been about the quantitative, and not the qualitative - correct the numbers, and i have no problem
02-10-2006, 02:06 PM
#40
Nordschleife Master
Flash - a couple of questions.
Earlier in this thread you claimed that 4 cars were used in your studies, why does the article list only yours and Dave's?
You keep saying that there is consistancy among cars, why then did your car not respond to the Welt chip as stated in the article?
Do California 968's have added emission equipment installed? Or are all US 968's similar in that regard?
And lastly, why keep attacking Andrew when your favorite chip company is touting the same HP changes that are not substantiated by your data? Should we all be emailing Chris demanding to see the data to prove the the RacerX chip puts out 15-20 hp? Or possibly writing legal briefs for false advertising claims?
Earlier in this thread you claimed that 4 cars were used in your studies, why does the article list only yours and Dave's?
You keep saying that there is consistancy among cars, why then did your car not respond to the Welt chip as stated in the article?
Do California 968's have added emission equipment installed? Or are all US 968's similar in that regard?
And lastly, why keep attacking Andrew when your favorite chip company is touting the same HP changes that are not substantiated by your data? Should we all be emailing Chris demanding to see the data to prove the the RacerX chip puts out 15-20 hp? Or possibly writing legal briefs for false advertising claims?
Last edited by Lemming; 02-10-2006 at 03:22 PM.
02-10-2006, 02:23 PM
#41
The fellow who put in the Racer X 'winning' chip flipped out the first time he started it up after installing the chip, because it was blowing a ton of black smoke. He shut it down, and the problem didn't repeat itself, but the chip was the only variable. I guess it ran super rich, and I don't like the idea of all that fuel washing the cylinder walls . . . even once.
I was one of the early Promax customers who showed a check engine light-Andrew sent me a replacement even before I mailed the old one back.
I was one of the early Promax customers who showed a check engine light-Andrew sent me a replacement even before I mailed the old one back.
02-10-2006, 02:33 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Lemming, in case you are not to familiar with his antics, he is famous for double standards. He wanted everyone to cut slack for Nein Magazine if people didn't recieve publications but would hold everyone else to the highest standard. That magazine was a "good thing" and should have been encouraged but vendors like Andrew and Scott are constantly discouraged and put on the spot.
I guess since he performed the test he considers himself a dyno expert and chip police. Anyone that goes against his choice usually hears about how the other chip is better and such.
He works for a magazine that charges people money for subscriptions. Sounds like a vendor to me. Fortunately for all of us, Bob Kovacs will be performing a chip test and writes for Excellence. I am sure the opinion will be objective and unbiased with the whole idea that people can decide on their own which chip they want to run using his article.
Thanks to Bob Kovacs for doing this, we all look forward to the article. A new article is needed more than ever with this constant bickering.
Raj
I guess since he performed the test he considers himself a dyno expert and chip police. Anyone that goes against his choice usually hears about how the other chip is better and such.
He works for a magazine that charges people money for subscriptions. Sounds like a vendor to me. Fortunately for all of us, Bob Kovacs will be performing a chip test and writes for Excellence. I am sure the opinion will be objective and unbiased with the whole idea that people can decide on their own which chip they want to run using his article.
Thanks to Bob Kovacs for doing this, we all look forward to the article. A new article is needed more than ever with this constant bickering.
Raj
02-10-2006, 03:38 PM
#43
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lemming - the other cars were tested after the article - this was done as a favor to andrew - we decided to retest with the corrected promax chip - the results were the same
as for the weltmeister, my car was modified, and it did not act the same as the rest - that is also why i did not use the data on my car for any of the results - i used only stock cars - amongst the stock cars, the results were the same - the emmissions equipment is no different on california cars - only the emmissions testing standards
i have a call in to chris - i will do what i can to get that corected immediately - bottom line is yes - those numbers should be challenged too - they are not what i found in testing
damian - there had to be another variable - the chip itself would not have caused that - it doesn't have that capability - i don't like fuel wash either - that's why i didn't like the first promax - it was way too rich down low - the a/f charts do not indicate any hint of an issue on either the new promax or the racer x - i am certain the smoke problem was not related to the chip itself
raj - i did not ask for any slack for the magazine - i explained that it was in trouble, and that i was trying to get it on track - people are entitled to complain about non-delivery - i have done that myself - i have my own set of complaints about the magazine
this is by no means my first dyno experience - i've been using dynos for 2 decades - as for chip police, i could really care less - people can buy what they want, based on thier own needs - it's only inaccurate claims that are of issue to me
bob's article does not involve any comparitive testing - i am told excellence did not want to do that because promax is an advertiser - that is their policy - it is essentially a promotional piece, and while i'm sure that it will contain bob's insightful opinions and reviews, it won't do anything for matching one chip up against another - in no way could anybody make any decisions based on such an article - that is exactly why i decided to do the shootout test in the first place - no chip company wanted to do a comparison - now we know why
as for being a vendor - a vendor is somebody who sells things (perhaps consulting a dictionary?) - you are much more of a vendor than me - i work on a magazine, sure - so does bob - no difference there - neither of us are vendors - i do not make any comparitive comment on anything i have any direct involvement with, recieve in any sponsorship agreement, or on anyone who is an advertiser in the magazine - that would be unethical - i recuse myself in those events - i, like bob, may review something for the magazine, but we cannot ethically make comparitive comments regarding competing products if they are an advertiser, or we recieve compensation from that vendor
the only bickering is with those who don't like the results - i can't help the data - i chose the chip that won - i could easily have chosen the promax if it performed better than the others - it didn't matter to me - the fact is that it did not - when a new chip comes out that does better, i'll go with that one
as for the weltmeister, my car was modified, and it did not act the same as the rest - that is also why i did not use the data on my car for any of the results - i used only stock cars - amongst the stock cars, the results were the same - the emmissions equipment is no different on california cars - only the emmissions testing standards
i have a call in to chris - i will do what i can to get that corected immediately - bottom line is yes - those numbers should be challenged too - they are not what i found in testing
damian - there had to be another variable - the chip itself would not have caused that - it doesn't have that capability - i don't like fuel wash either - that's why i didn't like the first promax - it was way too rich down low - the a/f charts do not indicate any hint of an issue on either the new promax or the racer x - i am certain the smoke problem was not related to the chip itself
raj - i did not ask for any slack for the magazine - i explained that it was in trouble, and that i was trying to get it on track - people are entitled to complain about non-delivery - i have done that myself - i have my own set of complaints about the magazine
this is by no means my first dyno experience - i've been using dynos for 2 decades - as for chip police, i could really care less - people can buy what they want, based on thier own needs - it's only inaccurate claims that are of issue to me
bob's article does not involve any comparitive testing - i am told excellence did not want to do that because promax is an advertiser - that is their policy - it is essentially a promotional piece, and while i'm sure that it will contain bob's insightful opinions and reviews, it won't do anything for matching one chip up against another - in no way could anybody make any decisions based on such an article - that is exactly why i decided to do the shootout test in the first place - no chip company wanted to do a comparison - now we know why
as for being a vendor - a vendor is somebody who sells things (perhaps consulting a dictionary?) - you are much more of a vendor than me - i work on a magazine, sure - so does bob - no difference there - neither of us are vendors - i do not make any comparitive comment on anything i have any direct involvement with, recieve in any sponsorship agreement, or on anyone who is an advertiser in the magazine - that would be unethical - i recuse myself in those events - i, like bob, may review something for the magazine, but we cannot ethically make comparitive comments regarding competing products if they are an advertiser, or we recieve compensation from that vendor
the only bickering is with those who don't like the results - i can't help the data - i chose the chip that won - i could easily have chosen the promax if it performed better than the others - it didn't matter to me - the fact is that it did not - when a new chip comes out that does better, i'll go with that one
02-10-2006, 03:56 PM
#44
Racer
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by flash968
without a controlled and measured baseline, matching the conditions of the other run, the data is meaningless - i have runs that show over 30hp gains with the other chip - of course, the data is erroneous, as one of the factors got away from us early on, until we corrected how to control it
you cannot call one run "typical" - that's called an anomoly - the fact is that typical gains are 13
and i am not talking about a 2-3 hp discrepancy - max gain is 13 or so NOT 22 - this was done of 4 different cars, and they all showed the same gains - that's a lot more than a 2-3 difference
so, all of those chips that threw the check engine light never got returned? i guess that's possible, and they just got replaced instead - by the way, chris has never has any of his returned either
the chip is a good chip, especially the 7100 - no arguing that - i've never said otherwise - there are plenty of people very happy with it - i've said i prefer the one that puts out more for my car, but that's all - it's only the numbers that are in question - all my comments have been about the quantitative, and not the qualitative - correct the numbers, and i have no problem
you cannot call one run "typical" - that's called an anomoly - the fact is that typical gains are 13
and i am not talking about a 2-3 hp discrepancy - max gain is 13 or so NOT 22 - this was done of 4 different cars, and they all showed the same gains - that's a lot more than a 2-3 difference
so, all of those chips that threw the check engine light never got returned? i guess that's possible, and they just got replaced instead - by the way, chris has never has any of his returned either
the chip is a good chip, especially the 7100 - no arguing that - i've never said otherwise - there are plenty of people very happy with it - i've said i prefer the one that puts out more for my car, but that's all - it's only the numbers that are in question - all my comments have been about the quantitative, and not the qualitative - correct the numbers, and i have no problem
The 22bhp gain was achieved on the same dyno, same day and same conditions. This was undertaken by a customer who wanted to verify the claims himself. The increase recorded was just that. Others in the UK have tested the chip and achieved similar results.
The only test in the USA (to my knowledge) is the one you carried out in CA. This is a test and recorded different results.
The first few chips supplied to USA customers did cause the CEL to come on. They were ROW chips and we quickly responded by creating 2 new chips specifically for the USA market. These have been selling very successfully since Jan 2005. Anybody that had a ROW CEL issue quickly had the new version suppied at no charge to them.
Everybody is entitled to make a choice and you have clearly made yours. I appreciate you are trying to be helpful and pass on your findings to the 968 community - but something must be wrong when I'm getting PM's asking if I can have the Rennlist Admnistrator examine your posts?
Personally I have no time for dyno results. If I can't feel the difference a performance product makes - I would not fit it to my car. We developed ProMAX Performance Chips on the road (and using computer simulations) to the point that we could obvioulsy feel the performance gains. Only then were the products released. I've tested other chips that have been dyno tested to make +20bhp - could I feel the difference? Well just, but only at WOT throttle. When driving normally - the car's performance was the same. Why? That's the reason our chips do perform - we re-map the idle trim, partial throttle and wide open throttle maps. This is why a 968 with a ProMAX chip feels smoother to drive and returns smoothly to idle. Just ask those that regularly drive with one fitted to their 968.
All,
I guess this is the biggest reason why we have possibly sold many, many 968 chips (mainly the USA and UK - many in EU, AUS and NZ too). Drivers fit it, drive the car and immediately feel the diference. At the end of the day - that's what matters.
Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com
02-10-2006, 04:19 PM
#45
Harvey's car smoked like a James Bond car the first time he started it after installing the 'winning' chip. He shut it down, and the next time he drove it the car smoked, but not as bad. It hasn't since. It had to have been the chip, since that was the only variable.