bweSteve

Yes,.. I agree.

Allen, per your suggestion for me to write to him, Bruce also spent considerable time writing a informative PM to my questions too.

Thank you Bruce!! Very much appreciated.

I'm glad I revived this older thread. Good information here.
=Steve

mel_t_vin

So Steve, after speaking with Bruce and Sean, the fact that you are not running cats or an O2 sensor, have you decided to go with the v-twin 20w-50?

bweSteve

Yes. Ordered & arrived. Just need to find some free time to make it happen.

bweSteve

Reinvigorating this thread.... re: {(< Porsche Classic 10w-60 for air-cooled >})

.... Because at this point, someone must have tried the Porsche Classic 10w-60 and put it through VOA testing to see what it looks like virgin fresh (Zn, P levels, etc),... and/or even sent to Blackstone after running it for thousands of miles,.... yes?

I spent a few minutes with Porsche at the Jay Peak Parade Hospitality, and the answer was the same as last year when it first came out; "Trust Weissach Engineers, Porsche knows best,... and you are correct Steve, Porsche does not release the ingredients of their "special sauce".

Ok, I'm all for drinking the coolaid,... but I also like to hear some real world experience & testing results.

I see over on the NB 964 Forum, some of those guys are reporting less than 1,000 ppm of Zinc in this new Classic 10w-60. If that is even true, does Weissach say that those amounts are Ok for our flat tappet engines?
What about the Turbo version of the 3.3? That's included right? They answered: "Yes".

I did not have the time to get deep into the conversation with him,... but other thoughts I wish I had said to him....

What about the low viscosity issues that JET951 {Bruce Buchanan} talks about when referring to lack of oil pressure at an idle. Will a Porsche Classic issued 10w oil cause that?
Would we not have already heard about guys having that problem if Porsche's 10w was causing that?

Many others have also talked of Film Strength being an important aspect. Has Weissach engineered that into this oil as well?

And to be honest, the NB 964 threads have a large degree of speculation in it,... even about whether Porsche has private labeled this oil (speculative Pentosin base built).
Personally I doubt Porsche would ever simply take someone else's base & modify it.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...tor-oil-4.html

So my question here is more of a simple one. Shout out to anyone who has a 964 or 993 aircooled 3.3 or 3.6 that has already used this oil, and can provide any feedback.

Best case scenario would be they sent in samples to Blackstone or similar & received results.
Or even minimal feedback on someone who is just now running it, and is not having heat temp issues, or low idle oil pressure issues, etc.

I did happen to ask my dealer ( who is giving me a killer deal on new Michelin Lattitude Sport 3's in 295/35-R21 for my '12 Cayenne Turbo ) and they quoted me $66 for the 5 Liter Can!!
That is JUST about as cheap than the M1 V-Twin 20w-50 that I just bought at $77 for 6 quarts!!! (of course I used Amazon points for the M1 V-Twin, so I had no out-of-pocket).

But hey, if the Porsche oil has come down in price to a tolerable level, and they have engineered all the right ingredients,.... Things that make you go Hmmmmm...

Thoughts?
=Steve

speednme

I use Valvoline VR-1 Racing oil..20-50 with no issues. Yes all oils, synthetic or not contain some ZDDP. How much is up to the manufacturer. There are 3 grades of ZDDP that we manufacture. One more expensive than the other. Knowing which grade or grades the oil manufacturer uses is the hard part. They will not share that, due to it being a proprietary blend. Simply find the best one you can afford by doing your research.

bweSteve

Ahh, Thanks for writing Rey,... you reminded me,...

I actually did mention that there were some really good "racing" oils out there (beyond the "built-for-the-masses Mobil 1 oil),... and his response was:...

... "that many of the racing oils are built w/ assumption that you are driving the vehicle quite often, and also changing the oil often,... and that Porsche Classic has been built for the older air-cooled collectibles that frequently sit for long periods of time inbetween drives."

Now that you mention it,... that does sound a bit like "film strength".

So maybe they have designed it with that in mind.

Like I said,... affordability is no longer an issue now that Porsche is selling at the same price as M1 20w-50.

Thanks for chiming in Rey!! Especially since I had never heard that there were 3 different quality levels of ZDDP.

I'd like to keep this topic open,... since we are all "turbo" guys, and thus our engine needs are slightly different than the regular 964 engines. BUT, the 930 forum is also quite a bit more "active" than this one,... and those of us with 964 3.3's are essentially the same {as the 930's} with regard to oil needs. Maybe I should cross-post this over there too.

=Steve

bweSteve

Hey, You guys wanna hear something even more wacky.... (related to this PORSCHE CLASSIC OIL)...

Porsche also now has engine bay stickers for these two new oils

20w-50 Part no. PCG04320005

10w-60 Part no. PCG04320006

Can you guess how much?? .... yep,... stupid expensive for a sticker.... $9 !!!

Ha!! At the initial pricing of this oil,.. we would all think they should GIVE them for FREE.

But now that the oil has come down in price,... maybe they want their $9?

I have not asked my Parts guy yet,... but I'm willing to bet if I buy the oil (even at the new low price of $66 for 5 liter can),... he would slide me one over the counter.

Just got a real good laugh out of that Mothership Price Point.

urquattro20Vt

great info guys - thanks

bweSteve

I was also recently able to obtain a internal document given to US Porsche Dealership Parts Dept's.
.... I typed up the four main descriptive sections & pasting here for your review ...

Porsche Classic Motor Oil

Technical Benefits & composition – pulled from the internal D1, Binder GR1-11 Porsche Bulletin
(This document was circulated to all US Dealership Parts departments back on 5-6-14)

- Air-cooled engines have higher thermal loads than water-cooled engines generally, which means the engine oil has to work harder to cool the engine down. The oil needs a high “hidden” performance reserve as well, due to larger oil volume, longer oil heating time, optimum cold running requirements, high power output per litre in high compression and high pressures plus wide range of temperature zones characteristic of air-cooled engines.

- Connecting rods with shorter piston strokes in Porsche air-cooled engines generate high lateral piston forces and correspondingly high demands on the lubricating film stability of the oil.

- The detergent / dispersant agents in modern oils are designed to thoroughly clean the engine and remove dirt. But for classic Porsche engines, it is important that the deposits which have built up over decades are not suddenly dissolved and that seals are not corroded – both of which are possibilities with higher detergent, modern oils.

- Classic vehicles are often stored for long periods, then are driven for short trips. This means that condensation can form in the oil, if the engine does not heat up fully. Aggressive combustion residues can cause acidification of the oil fill, resulting in the corrosion of engine components. The alloys, metals and sealing materials which were used at the time of manufacture are at particular risk. Therefore, Porsche Classic Motor Oils’ special formulation incorporates a high alkaline reserve, which help to neutralize acids that may form. Additional corrosion inhibitors (such as zinc) also protect vulnerable components, even during longer stationary periods.

bweSteve

Chiming in again with another update...

I had two cases of the Mobil 1 20w-50 V-Twin sitting in my garage for a month (back in May timeframe),... I acquired cheap off Amazon at $77 per 6 quart case (free to me w/ points).

I kept delaying my oil change, all the while thinking maybe I should give the Classic 10w-60 a shot.

When I found out I could get the 5 liter Porsche can for $66 each, I bought two. Plus got a couple of the small cans as extra for re-fill as my 964T burns a bit over the miles (each was discounted from $34 per liter, to $14 per). Not bad on pricing is my thought. Why not give it a try.

I'm reporting that I have indeed left the M1 on the shelf, and instead have completed the 10 liter oil change with the Classic 10w-60. So far so good. Less puff of smoke on start even after a couple weeks of sitting (I hope that is the strong "Film Strength" I am witnessing!!). Oil pressures remain the same as before, all good. Running smoothly, etc.
I'm happy so far.

Correct me if I'm wrong here guys, but theoretically the 10w is my cold "Winter" viscosity and the 60 is my summer high-heat viscosity,... and I do most all of my driving in the higher heat summers,... so the 60 should be where I get the bigger advantage with this oil.

I plan to pick up a couple Blackstone test kits so I'm ready for the next oil change & will capture & have tested.

Am I the ONLY one who is trying this oil so far?? wow. crazy. Guess it is NOT flying of their shelves.

I am not selling the 2 cases of M120w-50 until I know for sure this oil is working for me.

=Steve

mel_t_vin

Correct, Steve. The first number paired with the "w" is the winter/cold temp viscosity. The higher the number, the more viscous the oil is at the reference low temp.

And correct again, the -60 [vs the M1 20w-50] provides more viscosity, and theoretically higher film strength, at the reference high temp. In your case, that is especially beneficial during the warm MD/VA summer months.

Will be interested to see what the Blackstone analysis turns up.

mrgreenjeans

have been following this thread with great interest.....

Steve, did you have opportunity @ Jay Peak Parade to take in the Mobil One discussion ?

Did so myself at the Traverse City Parade in '13 and thought it very informative as I myself have been a longtime user of M1 - 20/50 and 15/50 ( mid '80s when I became a new owner of a new Porsche.)

bweSteve

Thanks Allen. Yes I will follow up with test results once I have them. The problem is that it may be 2 or 3 years from now!! haha. Over the last 3-4 years we've really reduced the # of miles driven. We only really drove it 1k-to-1,500 per year before that,... so now we're down a LOT.

MrGreenJeans, Mobil was not at this years Jay Peak Parade. It was Brad Penn that had a table in the Hospitality Suite (plus Porsche's large area). And yes I had a nice long conversation with BP,... but it did not result in me going in that direction. It did however fuel my discussion with Porsche about their Classic oils (post #19 above).

Thanks for chiming in & telling me that you guys have been reading this. With all the crickets, I was starting to think this was not of interest to anyone.
=Steve

ralt

Amen, Mr Buchanan Amen! Valvoline Racing 20-50 only.

Undutched

Hi,

I did find some info on the 20w50 as someone used it on his air cooled BMW bike.

Porsche Classic Motoroil 20w50
Zinc: 883ppm
Phosphorus: 927ppm
Viscosity at 100C: 19.1
TBN: n/a

I have yet to find anything on the 10w60 though. But this should give us a hint on the direction of Porsche. So ZDDP are not necessarily at a high level. THe Viscosity at 100C is somewhere midrange for a 50 weight oil. (16.3-21.9)