Doc V.

Even with your assurances, your figures--in the manner in which you have presented them--do not invalidate Gabriel's. At this point, we have two sets of contrasting figures for production numbers, but Gabriel's have one advantage: they have been scrutinized by a publisher--that is, the publisher's editors have checked the accuracy and rendering of Gabriel's evidence and research.

Contrastingly, your response (i) presents figures filtered with promises and corrective claims ("the numbers should total" and "world wide production should read"); (ii) creates the impression that your access to a VIN decoder is exclusive and that your use of it provides definitive results; (iii) hedges occasionally on accuracy ("I have fairly [my emphasis] accurate information"); identifies worldwide 3.3 964 Turbo production numbers which differ from those which you cited in a earlier post in this thread (3997 and "exceeds 4000 units," respectively); and (iv) offers what is currently speculation as knowledge ("we know that for the 3.6 nearly 100 cars have gone to the graveyard many have salvage titles").

My intention is not to dismiss out of hand your figures and your claims. My intuition is that you have conducted thorough and valuable research concerning 964 Turbo-series cars. However, currently that research is presented by fiat and not by demonstration: a counterclaim is offered, but no compelling refutation of the initial claim is provided. I would welcome an article from you dealing with your research--one which could easily appear in Panorama, Excellence, Total 911, or 911 and Porsche World, for example. I suspect that it would establish the facts about 964 Turbo-series productions numbers and serve as an invaluable resource of 964 Turbo enthusiasts.

cobalt

I do not have his book yet. My wife purchased the wrong book for me for Xmas. I have been meaning to buy his. Although if Doc V is posting from his book I add up 1423 not 1407. Also is he including the 93 total world prodcution Turbo S's and the 80 92 turbo S lightweights?

The vin decoder i had access to was directly linked to a Porsche database. I checked all my cars first plus the ones I sold, even my cayenne and in each case every option code and bit of info was 100% accurate. Although no info was given on color combos. I also checked a number of friends cars vin numbers and they all came up accurately. I had a lengthy conversation with Ray Joseph from RPM and he reviewed every vin number he had sold to that point which was extensive.

I went vin by vin starting at 001 and working my way up until it showed no such car was made same as any vin below 061, in the case of the US 3.6's the last vin was 466 which belongs to the last of the flachbaus. No vins exist beyond this. I did this for the 3.3's and some of the ROW cars which I felt was enough proof to show the numbers I have posted are accurate.

I find it interesting that a lot of info that is now being published was actually discussed and confirmed here on rennlist first. I am not saying that I am the only source or a source you have to trust, but everything I went through tells me that I can confidently stand behind the numbers I posted. Now if he has additional info stating otherwise I would be interested in hearing why he feels it is different. Until then I am confident these numbers are the most accurate and the ones I trust most. I want to say by no means am I trying to prove anyone wrong I am sure a lot went into compiling the info published but as others have tried to do in the past there is always a possibility that these numbers are flawed. I throw that out there in the interest in finding out more. If anyone has any info on vin #'s that are at the extreme ends of the ROW market I would be interested in hearing as far as the US market I am sure they are correct.

As far as cars that have been destroyed this was something I started working on years ago when I first started looking for my 3.6T. The first car I looked at was a salvage title car and at that time they would not budge from a $37k asking price which was absurd. I know that car eventually sold and was retitled with what we call an S title. I had compiled over 60 vin numbers of cars that were no longer with us and many others with salvage titles. Some of this was by actual vin and others through engine serial numbers that were used on project cars. Many of these cars were used as track cars until the 993TT came out and people had to have the latest. A lot of cars fell victim to track accidents. People here on rennlist shared information about their lost 3.6 and although I had accumulated roughly 60 cars at the time I lost access to that PC (all info was lost) I have come across many other since. My number is rough but I am sure it is close enough +/- 10 cars.

As far as drivers go in the US. Have you driven here? Most drivers shouldn't be allowed on the roads and I can site more losses of nice cars due to others colliding into them than the actual driver error of the 3.6T.

I am sure this debate will finally get resolved one day. We clearly are far closer to actual numbers than we had ever been before. I don't think it really matters that much a few extra or less will not change the supply or demand we are currently seeing.

cobalt

As I said in my post I was working on while you posted. I am not trying to take away from the author or publisher. However numerous books have been published by many authors and reviewed by publishers and in each case prior to this book the numbers were incorrect. I can assure you I can prove info wrong in many books which at one time were the Gospel. I have a very nice book by Karl Ludvigsen which many use as a resource that I can assure you his info on the one off America GS and last 930 turbo are completely inaccurate. Whether it was a typo or just wrong info I have no idea but it is printed incorrectly. I am sure this info was thought to be accurate at the time. Again I am not saying you have to trust my numbers I can only assure you I am confident they are correct. I have spent well over 10 years researching this info. My fault for losing access and my database.

BTW I am working on such an article you may just see it published one day.

As far as last nights post I guess I shouldn't drink Bourbon and type

TL-Register

All figures in Andreas Gabriels book were created by me and are copyright protected by me.

One have to look a bit closer to show it right and clear up what cars are we talking about before!

Example : 1991 US Turbo 3.3 580 for C02 - Country equipment USA (incl California in 1991)
and 33 Cars for Canada - so total 613 cars with US- VIN ( impossible that there are 614 Anthony, as range end up with 673 ...
First car: WP0AA2968MS480061
Last car : WP0AA2966MS480673

and so on - much too much to write it down again and again -

Turbo-Book is a bit poor in content but the counts are really correct
though the differ from other pulications... a hell of work ...

Best from Germany

Norbert

Doc V.

Gabriel presents figures which differ from yours; they will be definitive only if they survive analytic scrutiny. However, the one--one--advantage in those figures lies in the fact that they have already been examined as a condition for publication. Even though other publications have contained errors, we cannot infer logically that Gabriel's figures are erroneous. Such an inference involves an argument from analogy--a flawed form of inductive reasoning.

With over ten years of specific research on 964 Turbos, you are in a unique position to provide an especially compelling account about that series of Porsches. I suspect that a published account from you would be definitive; those suspicions will be true if I am right about them.

cobalt

Norbert as you are aware I used the Vin decoder that you supplied me. It is different than this one which shows vin numbers far above 0673 as being cars manufactured. ???? The one I used supplied all option codes which this does not. By using what you supplied me I punched in all the vin numbers to see what I came up with and 674 as being the last vin for MY 1992. SO I don't know what to say. You say it is different and unfortunately I am now locked out of that decoder so I can't dispute you but I know what I went through and we discussed it. You might recall that I was the one that figured out that the first vin started at 061 vs 001 as previously thought. I can show this by my past threads.

How do you account for the lower number of 92's also? Do these numbers include the 20 turbo S's? I have personally concours judged a 1992 with Vin number 305 so something is amiss I am sorry to say. If there are only 233 1992 MY US cars than how can you account for a vin above 293? I also was breaking it down as US and ROW no other regions. I know of several US spec 3.6's that were never delivered to a US customer and left the US prior to being registered.

I hate to argue with you on this as you have always been so helpful but I am having a hard time believing these numbers don't need a little more fine tuning although very close.

I am sure the work that went into this was tremendous and countless hours spent on getting everything correct.

I guess you guys should have checked with me first. JK

TL-Register

I rechecked in my database in any possible way - there is no higher listed Turbo 3.3 ??? But i will check for this later this evening in the official database ... I was talking about Mj 1991 (M-Series) !!!!


Most of the counts in your post are wrong - as there are different ways to look at them. (nearby but wrong ) Best way is to define a way you want to look at the counts -
In the book i always looked at the VIN - for example: there is no 1993 US Turbo when you look at the VIN (PS48XXXX) - you are absolutly right with mentioning the M-Code 718 - but all these cars have a 1994 VIN (RS48XXXX) though they are Mj 1993 in internal Porsche lists. (but NOT all of them have M718 !!!)

As i regarded them by VIN i added them to the 1994 Mj. range.

unfortunately my english is only a bit better today - it is still hard for me to explain with the correct words (we had this problem before i know ...)

I hoped to bring this dicussion to an end with the book - if one looks at what i wrote down there closely - there can´t be a misunderstanding as i made it county for country and VIN-Range for VIN-Range.

feel free to ask any question, i will do my best to make it a bit clearer ...

Norbert

cobalt

Norbert I want to say that if I knew it was you who supplied the numbers I would have said a lot less in respect for your efforts. Although I have done the same.

I agree the number of vins for US that were M718 coded were not 061 through 288. In fact some of the numbers below 288 did not wear the M718 code Like #284 for instance, however others above 288 did. It took a long time to go in and check each Vin number one at a time. Although we do know that 288 cars were M718 coded in total.

I guess I need to get my hands on the book before I say anymore. I dropped enough hints about this particular book as an Xmas gift although my wife purchased "The Porsche 911 Book" for me instead. Oh well. Haven't even had time to open it yet.

For now I will defer to you although I am still perplexed by the 92 I have witnessed first hand that carries a vin of 305 which by the numbers posted should not exist. I know we have a tendency to look at things a little differently over here. I break it down by US vs ROW you seem to be using the Cxx code to specify where it belongs.

I will await my copy to comment further but I feel as strongly about this as you do. I think we agree the overall numbers are not huge and I have confidence one day we will see things the same way.

TL-Register

I´m sure you will have fun with the book! Many never told facts to be found in my counts

I just checked the P.- Database - A 1991 Turbo car with MS480674 do not exist!

Not my fought that my counts are cited wrong here in this Thread( that is not what is written in the book, as i said before) - A car with 305 truely exists: WP0AA2968NS480305 - total 248 cars with US VIN for Mj 1992
First: WP0AA2966NS480061
Last: WP0AA2963NS480308

Best

Norbert

nathan1

As an owner this does get fairly hard to get your head around! I have a 1991 VIN Ending 480616, so am I safe to assume mine is 1/614 US market examples for 1991?

As an aside I did just see a 1992 MY S2 Andial Car with VIN ending 480136.

Doc V.

On page 141 of his book, Gabriel identifies and differentiates 233 3.3 964 Turbos for the US market in 1992 and 15 3.3 964 Turbos for the Canadian market in 1992--in other word, 248 cars for the North American market.

Do the 1992 Canadian 3.3 964 Turbos have US VINs?

cobalt

That makes sense. I was starting to question my sanity. Off by one I can live with. Hate to go down this path but I am assuming you are including the 20 Andial Built US S2's in this #?

Since we are on the subject and you said to ask away I am curious why all the US vins posted "6" as the 9th digit I was always under the impression that this was a random digit of 0-9 or X? I have yet to figure any reasoning how this was selected or is it just randomly generated? Most decoders will not acknowledge vin #'s unless the "calculated check number" was correct.
I guess Norbert will opine but my understanding is all Canadian cars came through PCNA. So I would venture to say yes.

Steven C.

Well, this is interesting for sure. I need to get the book, will look at Amazon today. And I have found that my 91 is much earlier than I thought. Cool! Thanks guys.

TL-Register

Absolutely !

All posted VIN´s in this thread are the real VIN´s of the cars with correct checknumber at position 9. It is an essential piece of the VIN and differs individually. Impossible to check for the car without it (except with my private decoder on Turbo-Look Register (www.turbo-look.com) - unfortunately i had to put it down as it was missused too much ... )


Best Norbert

Steven C.

I do not have a 6 at position 9 starting with the letters. I have a 6 at position 8 so it must be individual to the car?