Turbo 3.6 collectibility
05-13-2013, 11:57 AM
#16
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I personally believe the 2.7RS is overvalued now..simply because there were too many produced for this actual price level
In 1986 - 1987 (not really sure about the exact period, but late 80's) I was living in Germany near Kaiserslautern. I remember very well me having a look at a 2.7 RS Porsche for sale at a VW / Audi dealer (at that time, Porsche Dealers were not as independent as they are today but were very often part of a big VW + Audi dealership) ... Believe it or not but this 2.7RS was for sale at 25k Deutsche Marks ! This is around 12.5k Euros or 16k USD.
Rather than buying the 2.7RS, I bought a BMW 2002 Turbo... Please don't tell me
05-13-2013, 02:09 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
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I will tell you this is fate? Hopefully something is kept better for you at the end of tr day it's a hobby or passion and not an investment or thing we do for a living.
05-13-2013, 07:58 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
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Porsche.collector & Max964t36 : Fully subscribe to your point of view ... but 2.7RSs definitely are part of the Porsche legend. This undoubtedly brings a big part of irrationality into the equation which also is reflected in 2.7 RS prices.
In 1986 - 1987 (not really sure about the exact period, but late 80's) I was living in Germany near Kaiserslautern. I remember very well me having a look at a 2.7 RS Porsche for sale at a VW / Audi dealer (at that time, Porsche Dealers were not as independent as they are today but were very often part of a big VW + Audi dealership) ... Believe it or not but this 2.7RS was for sale at 25k Deutsche Marks ! This is around 12.5k Euros or 16k USD.
Rather than buying the 2.7RS, I bought a BMW 2002 Turbo... Please don't tell me
In 1986 - 1987 (not really sure about the exact period, but late 80's) I was living in Germany near Kaiserslautern. I remember very well me having a look at a 2.7 RS Porsche for sale at a VW / Audi dealer (at that time, Porsche Dealers were not as independent as they are today but were very often part of a big VW + Audi dealership) ... Believe it or not but this 2.7RS was for sale at 25k Deutsche Marks ! This is around 12.5k Euros or 16k USD.
Rather than buying the 2.7RS, I bought a BMW 2002 Turbo... Please don't tell me
Well...as they say "**** happens"..Kaiserlautern is a nice area to test the 2.7RS...I agree that the 2.7RS was the first RS at Porsche but still..at over 2000 produced..this is way more than a C-GT, GT2RS, 964 turbo etc...
Anyway, dont blame yourelf for anything..I´ll top your story with the example of my father. He could have had in the early 70s a 904 for the same money but choose to buy 4x normal 356 which ...- plus later he had the chance to get a cheap BMW 507..and again he made wrong decision.
all the best,
05-14-2013, 04:53 AM
#19
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@Meanmachine : this is clearly a passion and this is also the reason why I purchased the BMW 2002 Turbo and not the 2.7RS but as we are speaking about overvalued cars, I just wanted to demonstrate that some of them have also been reasonably priced at some point... prior collectors, international auctions (and even investors) drastically changing the prices.
@Porsche.collector : The road between Kaiserslautern and Neustadt /Weinstrasse indeed is the kind of road that seems to have been done for 2.7 RSs or similiar cars
... and speaking about BMW 507s... Just have a look at early Auto Motor und Sport issues (70's or even early 80's) and you will indeed see that one could get such type of car for this kind of money (which by the way was not really a bargain as a BMW 2002 Turbo new did cost around 20k Deutsche Marks in 1974 but, again, simply shows that some cars that are very expensive today were also reasonably priced back in the day...)
Anyway : Enjoying our cars really is the best we can do
@Porsche.collector : The road between Kaiserslautern and Neustadt /Weinstrasse indeed is the kind of road that seems to have been done for 2.7 RSs or similiar cars
... and speaking about BMW 507s... Just have a look at early Auto Motor und Sport issues (70's or even early 80's) and you will indeed see that one could get such type of car for this kind of money (which by the way was not really a bargain as a BMW 2002 Turbo new did cost around 20k Deutsche Marks in 1974 but, again, simply shows that some cars that are very expensive today were also reasonably priced back in the day...)Anyway : Enjoying our cars really is the best we can do
05-14-2013, 11:01 AM
#21
Everyone talks about rarity…but it really needs to be coupled with desirability.
Desirability is a moving target based on the spirit of that moment. It’s hard to predict the desirability of air-cooled, old-school turbo Porsches. However, the trend seems to point towards limited production NA cars with pedigree.
For me, I just love old-school turbo tech…it’s such a unique experience. Whether it will be desirable is a different story.
Desirability is a moving target based on the spirit of that moment. It’s hard to predict the desirability of air-cooled, old-school turbo Porsches. However, the trend seems to point towards limited production NA cars with pedigree.
For me, I just love old-school turbo tech…it’s such a unique experience. Whether it will be desirable is a different story.
05-14-2013, 01:47 PM
#22
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very true. as much as I love my 3.6. I do prefer NA cars. .. my two favorite old-school porsches have always been the 964 3.6 turbo and the 993 C2S. the Turbo is a no brainer - limited production, last single turbo, last 2wd turbo etc...
however, I really believe the C2S has that prestige as well... more than a 993 turbo (at least for me). its also relatively limited. Wide Body, non-turbo, 2wd, that wide ***, exclusive dual design engine air vents. you gotta love it.
however, I really believe the C2S has that prestige as well... more than a 993 turbo (at least for me). its also relatively limited. Wide Body, non-turbo, 2wd, that wide ***, exclusive dual design engine air vents. you gotta love it.
05-14-2013, 02:10 PM
#24
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@Meanmachine : this is clearly a passion and this is also the reason why I purchased the BMW 2002 Turbo and not the 2.7RS but as we are speaking about overvalued cars, I just wanted to demonstrate that some of them have also been reasonably priced at some point... prior collectors, international auctions (and even investors) drastically changing the prices.
@Porsche.collector : The road between Kaiserslautern and Neustadt /Weinstrasse indeed is the kind of road that seems to have been done for 2.7 RSs or similiar cars ... and speaking about BMW 507s... Just have a look at early Auto Motor und Sport issues (70's or even early 80's) and you will indeed see that one could get such type of car for this kind of money (which by the way was not really a bargain as a BMW 2002 Turbo new did cost around 20k Deutsche Marks in 1974 but, again, simply shows that some cars that are very expensive today were also reasonably priced back in the day...)
Anyway : Enjoying our cars really is the best we can do
@Porsche.collector : The road between Kaiserslautern and Neustadt /Weinstrasse indeed is the kind of road that seems to have been done for 2.7 RSs or similiar cars
... and speaking about BMW 507s... Just have a look at early Auto Motor und Sport issues (70's or even early 80's) and you will indeed see that one could get such type of car for this kind of money (which by the way was not really a bargain as a BMW 2002 Turbo new did cost around 20k Deutsche Marks in 1974 but, again, simply shows that some cars that are very expensive today were also reasonably priced back in the day...)Anyway : Enjoying our cars really is the best we can do
First congrats to your 2002...a goond friend of my father - used to work on these in the 70s..one best BMWs ever !
BMW 507 - you dont have to tell me this..I know. Instead of the 507 my father chose the 502..you see..he was more a "family car" fan than a sportscar guy..but from a financial point of view..he should have known it..."people carriers" never became very valuable...
Back to the subject: RSA_27 has a fair point...if there is no "desire" for the car...it doesnt help much either. The 993 turbo was produced in much higher quantities..and still it gets almost the same price..in fact for many years it was more expensive than the 3.6.
But for me low production numbers were always part of the "succes road"..but now its time to drive our beauties again..
05-14-2013, 07:24 PM
#25
Hi Porsche Collector,
It looks like we think alike, I can't agree with you more that market prices are dictated by how many cars are on the market.
I'd like to share with you my experience in purchasing my 3.6T, as I feel it relates somewhat to the current market conditions and the collectibility of it. I've been searching and following the market closely for 2 years but wasn't quite prepared to have a third porsche parked and not driven, unless I was able to get a good deal on it. I would say I am a rookie collector of Porsches, I underestimated the value of the vehicle and I've been chasing them down hard the past year. I put up an ad around christmas time sharing with the group that I would pay around 100K for a nice vehicle. I had 3 total private messages that would consider selling their cars. None of them were perfect or even close. The three available owners all wanted around 90K and were humming and hawing about selling it. They also respected what I wanted and didn't feel it was a right fit for me. One was repainted and missing alot of stock parts, the other didn't have speedlines and was tracked, and the last one was modified significantly.
At the time supply was very tight and I don't remember any cars in the open market. a rennlister told me about a car he passed on and forwarded me the contacts number. All in all I ended up with a blk/blk, with 60K miles, fresh top end redone, maintenace up to date, new tires, paint is ok, Will be spending about 5K to freshen up exterior, repaint calipers, refinish wheels, new exterior seals, rear tailights.
Paid 87K.
All of a sudden at this price point cars are coming out of the woodwork. I think we are seeing a top for these 50-60K miles cars, partly becasue the dealers have been holding their current cars longer than in the past and a couple of rennlisters are considering selling their cars. It will be interesting to see how fast these cars move or if they move at all.
I'm not excited as I thought I'd be when I purchased this car. Maybe the excitement was the thrill of finding one and buying it. I also have a 993 TT and no disrespect to the 964 3.6T I like the 993TT more. Maybe I need to drive the 964 more but the 993 seems to have more useable power at all times. The 964 just feels old, although it is only two years older than my 993 it feels alot older in everyway.
Back to the collectibility, there are many different collectors and many collectors have different tastes, preferences etc. The reason I wanted a 964 3.6T was that it is a DAMN cool car. I don't think anyone will disagree with me on that. I would like to consider myself a Porsche collector but like many of us I don't have a warehouse to house all my cars. I think I am one of the fortunate ones that can have space for 3-4 collectible cars. So I have to choose wisely.
I don't follow the 930 market too closely but i feel differently that the 930 market is undervalued and will jump over the 3.6T. the 930 was made for a few years if not mistaken. I have never considered buying a 930 only because i think the 3.6T is the best 964 car to buy. There are some very rare 964 specimans out there that are too rich for me RS cup, turbo S etc... but I think this is also the last year of the 964 and they went all out for one year. The car is very desirable along with low production numbers.
I also am quite surprised with the values of the 2.7 RS but with tight supply and looked upon as a porsche legend I can see why values are where they are. Any serious collector of Porsches I assume will want to have one of these in their collections.
I chose to collect one from each series a 964, 993, 996. and later on when the 997 's drop more in price I will choose one then.
What are your thoughts on the 996 GT2? here is a low production vehicle but not loved by many? prices seem to have been flat or dropping slower.
I went to the 996 GT3 because many people I feel down the road may want to revisit this car as many have said it was the best car they've ever owned/ driven. Production is also relatively low.
It looks like we think alike, I can't agree with you more that market prices are dictated by how many cars are on the market.
I'd like to share with you my experience in purchasing my 3.6T, as I feel it relates somewhat to the current market conditions and the collectibility of it. I've been searching and following the market closely for 2 years but wasn't quite prepared to have a third porsche parked and not driven, unless I was able to get a good deal on it. I would say I am a rookie collector of Porsches, I underestimated the value of the vehicle and I've been chasing them down hard the past year. I put up an ad around christmas time sharing with the group that I would pay around 100K for a nice vehicle. I had 3 total private messages that would consider selling their cars. None of them were perfect or even close. The three available owners all wanted around 90K and were humming and hawing about selling it. They also respected what I wanted and didn't feel it was a right fit for me. One was repainted and missing alot of stock parts, the other didn't have speedlines and was tracked, and the last one was modified significantly.
At the time supply was very tight and I don't remember any cars in the open market. a rennlister told me about a car he passed on and forwarded me the contacts number. All in all I ended up with a blk/blk, with 60K miles, fresh top end redone, maintenace up to date, new tires, paint is ok, Will be spending about 5K to freshen up exterior, repaint calipers, refinish wheels, new exterior seals, rear tailights.
Paid 87K.
All of a sudden at this price point cars are coming out of the woodwork. I think we are seeing a top for these 50-60K miles cars, partly becasue the dealers have been holding their current cars longer than in the past and a couple of rennlisters are considering selling their cars. It will be interesting to see how fast these cars move or if they move at all.
I'm not excited as I thought I'd be when I purchased this car. Maybe the excitement was the thrill of finding one and buying it. I also have a 993 TT and no disrespect to the 964 3.6T I like the 993TT more. Maybe I need to drive the 964 more but the 993 seems to have more useable power at all times. The 964 just feels old, although it is only two years older than my 993 it feels alot older in everyway.
Back to the collectibility, there are many different collectors and many collectors have different tastes, preferences etc. The reason I wanted a 964 3.6T was that it is a DAMN cool car. I don't think anyone will disagree with me on that. I would like to consider myself a Porsche collector but like many of us I don't have a warehouse to house all my cars. I think I am one of the fortunate ones that can have space for 3-4 collectible cars. So I have to choose wisely.
I don't follow the 930 market too closely but i feel differently that the 930 market is undervalued and will jump over the 3.6T. the 930 was made for a few years if not mistaken. I have never considered buying a 930 only because i think the 3.6T is the best 964 car to buy. There are some very rare 964 specimans out there that are too rich for me RS cup, turbo S etc... but I think this is also the last year of the 964 and they went all out for one year. The car is very desirable along with low production numbers.
I also am quite surprised with the values of the 2.7 RS but with tight supply and looked upon as a porsche legend I can see why values are where they are. Any serious collector of Porsches I assume will want to have one of these in their collections.
I chose to collect one from each series a 964, 993, 996. and later on when the 997 's drop more in price I will choose one then.
What are your thoughts on the 996 GT2? here is a low production vehicle but not loved by many? prices seem to have been flat or dropping slower.
I went to the 996 GT3 because many people I feel down the road may want to revisit this car as many have said it was the best car they've ever owned/ driven. Production is also relatively low.
05-15-2013, 11:14 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
I always felt the 964 Turbo 3.6 would one day see the appreciation it deserved. After searching for a year and looking at many 993TT's. I decided I had to have a turbo 3.6. After years of avoiding the 930's and coming from a 19 year stint with a light weight 74RS clone with all factory IROC parts and Max Moritz built motor I decided the 3.6T was for me. Surprisingly when I owned both they both offered a similar level of excitement. The 74 clone was more fun than the 73RS I almost purchased and the turbo although far heavier in comparison offered a lot of what the RS did for me. Although looking back I should have kept the 74 clone. The 993TT was a great ride but was far to refined and somewhat boring in comparison. For this reason I feel one day the turbo 3.6 will appreciate beyond that of the 993TT's and eventually leave them behind.
I always felt the "package car" turbo S was the car to own and would one day be the most valuable with the flachbau second of the 964T line for the US I would assume the 92 lightweight would be of big interest to markets that can drive them legally.
We all made our mistakes I missed out on a 904 in 1980 for $12k although needed extensive work, a 73RS for $60k back in the late 80's and a 964 flachbau for $130k a few years back thinking how much more could these cars be worth? Well obviously a lot more than I imagined.
It is tough to say where these cars will end up although they are cars and not investments and if you enjoy them and they appreciate all the better. I always said the single turbo charged Porsche's were not for everyone and turned as many people off as they excited however this was the best of what gave the car and the company its initial fame. It looked, drove, handled and felt far superior to the 930 and was made in such small quantities with far too few remaining. It carried the company through its toughest time and if it didn't we wouldn't have the newer models to talk about which I also think will play a roll in its value one day. I feel we have not seen the end of the appreciation for this model and although I agree it will never be as valuable as a 73RS and offers many things but a light weight RS feel although IMO is equally as rewarding of a car to drive as the RS's. Time will tell but I feel that it will carve out its own place in Porsche history and collector markets.
I always felt the "package car" turbo S was the car to own and would one day be the most valuable with the flachbau second of the 964T line for the US I would assume the 92 lightweight would be of big interest to markets that can drive them legally.
We all made our mistakes I missed out on a 904 in 1980 for $12k although needed extensive work, a 73RS for $60k back in the late 80's and a 964 flachbau for $130k a few years back thinking how much more could these cars be worth? Well obviously a lot more than I imagined.
It is tough to say where these cars will end up although they are cars and not investments and if you enjoy them and they appreciate all the better. I always said the single turbo charged Porsche's were not for everyone and turned as many people off as they excited however this was the best of what gave the car and the company its initial fame. It looked, drove, handled and felt far superior to the 930 and was made in such small quantities with far too few remaining. It carried the company through its toughest time and if it didn't we wouldn't have the newer models to talk about which I also think will play a roll in its value one day. I feel we have not seen the end of the appreciation for this model and although I agree it will never be as valuable as a 73RS and offers many things but a light weight RS feel although IMO is equally as rewarding of a car to drive as the RS's. Time will tell but I feel that it will carve out its own place in Porsche history and collector markets.
05-20-2013, 11:00 PM
#28
I think we are looking to hard into this..we must wait and see...it all boils down to how many people will want the car and how much they will be willing to pay for them regardless. If it is used not used bubble kept, well I assure you the 2.7RS selling today were not bubble kept couple of years ago.
Then look at the Ferrari Dino, a car not deemed good enough to wear the Ferrari badge with a fiat 6 cylinder engine and about 4000 of them produced, and look at the ridiculous prices their are commanding. Personally, I do not like the Dino.
Now look at the Renault R5 Turbo I and II less than 3600 produced, production done by Alpine with mid-mounted engine, racing history with a couple of WRC wins. They are struggling in prices and personally I love the car.
We must wait and see...
Then look at the Ferrari Dino, a car not deemed good enough to wear the Ferrari badge with a fiat 6 cylinder engine and about 4000 of them produced, and look at the ridiculous prices their are commanding. Personally, I do not like the Dino.
Now look at the Renault R5 Turbo I and II less than 3600 produced, production done by Alpine with mid-mounted engine, racing history with a couple of WRC wins. They are struggling in prices and personally I love the car.
We must wait and see...
05-21-2013, 09:10 AM
#30
