1bar spring and 91 octane gas?
05-20-2002, 11:17 PM
#1
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1bar spring and 91 octane gas?
I've been thinking about installing a 1 bar spring to my '92 C2 Turbo instead of an EBC primary because of my budget.
Am I putting my engine at risk by installing the 1 bar spring and running it on 91 octane California pump gas?
Is there such thing as a .9 bar spring? Does it worth it?
Thanks for all inputs.
Sonny
ps: My car has Lee Rice's Fuel Enrichment device installed.
Am I putting my engine at risk by installing the 1 bar spring and running it on 91 octane California pump gas?
Is there such thing as a .9 bar spring? Does it worth it?
Thanks for all inputs.
Sonny
ps: My car has Lee Rice's Fuel Enrichment device installed.
05-21-2002, 06:36 AM
#2
Racer
Sonny,
My car has the so called 0.85 bar spring. I am not sure if it was installed from the factory or at Porsche Center in Sweden on delivery. But it has been in the car since 1991. It was called the "355 hp" trim kit. It do not know if that hp is correkt! Staffan has the 0.7 bar spring and the same mods as I and I do not think there is a great difference in our cars. It feels more than it goes.
If I were you I would wait and save then get a EBC.
I also think the 1.0 bar is a little more pressure than I would put in my car! Things can start to leak due to new/extra stress. Even if I install a EBC I will not let it over 0.9 bar, ever!
/Patrik
1991 911 Turbo
My car has the so called 0.85 bar spring. I am not sure if it was installed from the factory or at Porsche Center in Sweden on delivery. But it has been in the car since 1991. It was called the "355 hp" trim kit. It do not know if that hp is correkt! Staffan has the 0.7 bar spring and the same mods as I and I do not think there is a great difference in our cars. It feels more than it goes.
If I were you I would wait and save then get a EBC.
I also think the 1.0 bar is a little more pressure than I would put in my car! Things can start to leak due to new/extra stress. Even if I install a EBC I will not let it over 0.9 bar, ever!
/Patrik
1991 911 Turbo
05-21-2002, 09:04 AM
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Sonny, there should be a number of different springs on the market, after market vendors for sure.
I was told by the local Porsche Center that you can buy Porsche springs for different settings from authorized "Porsche Racing" vendors (don't know what they are called in english). I just found out that the Swedish Porsche racing team (Podium Racing) is a reseller of "Porsche Racing" parts, I am going to give them a call and let you know what they said.
All the mechanics I spoken to says the same thing, 0.9 is considered "safe", when told not to quote them, they say 1.0 should be "safe" to. If the car is to be used a lot on the track, 0.9 is recommended on a otherwise stock car. We have about the same octane level here, slightly higher.
I also been told that unless you drive the car on track or at high boost for a longer period of time, and that your air/fuel mixture is ok, you shouldn't be to concerned about detonation when running 1.0 bar, you should however be concerned about the increased pressure. Especially if you increase the boost on a high milage car.
I agree with Patrik, the difference in power between our two cars (.7 and .85), otherwise same mods, is slight, but it's there, it's real and enough to make me think about installing a 0.85-0.9 bar spring.....
Staffan
I was told by the local Porsche Center that you can buy Porsche springs for different settings from authorized "Porsche Racing" vendors (don't know what they are called in english). I just found out that the Swedish Porsche racing team (Podium Racing) is a reseller of "Porsche Racing" parts, I am going to give them a call and let you know what they said.
All the mechanics I spoken to says the same thing, 0.9 is considered "safe", when told not to quote them, they say 1.0 should be "safe" to. If the car is to be used a lot on the track, 0.9 is recommended on a otherwise stock car. We have about the same octane level here, slightly higher.
I also been told that unless you drive the car on track or at high boost for a longer period of time, and that your air/fuel mixture is ok, you shouldn't be to concerned about detonation when running 1.0 bar, you should however be concerned about the increased pressure. Especially if you increase the boost on a high milage car.
I agree with Patrik, the difference in power between our two cars (.7 and .85), otherwise same mods, is slight, but it's there, it's real and enough to make me think about installing a 0.85-0.9 bar spring.....
Staffan
05-21-2002, 09:22 PM
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Hi guys,
Because I am looking for that magic number, 360 hp at the flywheel, see - I don't want much. That is why I want to install the 1 bar spring. I don't track the car and rarely stay on boost very long. I found out that unless you are under load, you are not really on full boost at all, even if you are at high rpm.
I would love to have the EBC, but with the cost and labor for installing it would be too much for me. I am getting married soon and also not working at the moment. In fact, I am worry that something might break on the car so I drive it less and less because I can't affort to fix anything right now.
I am thinking of sneaking in the 1bar or .9 bar spring during my next oil change. I won't install it myself. I installed the fuel enrichment device in anticipate of mods such as this. I wish I have the money to also do the GHL Header/ Heat Exchanger.
How much hp is gained from a .9bar spring? and 1bar spring (30hp on this one I think, .1bar is 10hp, right?).
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Sonny
Because I am looking for that magic number, 360 hp at the flywheel, see - I don't want much. That is why I want to install the 1 bar spring. I don't track the car and rarely stay on boost very long. I found out that unless you are under load, you are not really on full boost at all, even if you are at high rpm.
I would love to have the EBC, but with the cost and labor for installing it would be too much for me. I am getting married soon and also not working at the moment. In fact, I am worry that something might break on the car so I drive it less and less because I can't affort to fix anything right now.
I am thinking of sneaking in the 1bar or .9 bar spring during my next oil change. I won't install it myself. I installed the fuel enrichment device in anticipate of mods such as this. I wish I have the money to also do the GHL Header/ Heat Exchanger.
How much hp is gained from a .9bar spring? and 1bar spring (30hp on this one I think, .1bar is 10hp, right?).
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Sonny
05-22-2002, 07:03 AM
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Sonny, yes 10hp per .1 is what MichaelB (Imagine Auto?) told me, I also read an article on the subject a few months ago, saying that you should expect 25-40 hp gain when increasing the boost by .3 bar.
BTW, I called the "Porsche Racing" parts vendor yesterday about wastegate springs, I waiting for them to get back to me with info on what they got.
Staffan
BTW, I called the "Porsche Racing" parts vendor yesterday about wastegate springs, I waiting for them to get back to me with info on what they got.
Staffan
05-23-2002, 04:17 AM
#6
Sonny, im surprised u didnt do the spring yet, or the muffler, or the headers . I dont know if i have the 1 bar for sure, because i have never taken my wastegate apart. But my friends with turbos, whether its 911s or 951s swear that i do, because im ususally faster than they are in a straight line, if we are the same vintage. I think me ex-owner might have done it along with some secret mods .
Im sure u heard my B&Bs, i think the least u can do is also get their mufflers. They get rid of the cat and save some weight in the process. I love mine and they are the best sounding and LOUD in my opinion.
P.S: my car never have any running problems regarding to the 91 gas that we have here. The only mod, i consider doing is the ruf front valence oil cooler, because after repeated 1/4 mile runs, my turbo gets hot and performance suffers.
[quote]Originally posted by SonnyV:
<strong>Hi guys,
....I am thinking of sneaking in the 1bar or .9 bar spring during my next oil change. I won't install it myself. I installed the fuel enrichment device in anticipate of mods such as this. I wish I have the money to also do the GHL Header/ Heat Exchanger.
Sonny</strong><hr></blockquote>
Im sure u heard my B&Bs, i think the least u can do is also get their mufflers. They get rid of the cat and save some weight in the process. I love mine and they are the best sounding and LOUD in my opinion.
P.S: my car never have any running problems regarding to the 91 gas that we have here. The only mod, i consider doing is the ruf front valence oil cooler, because after repeated 1/4 mile runs, my turbo gets hot and performance suffers.
[quote]Originally posted by SonnyV:
<strong>Hi guys,
....I am thinking of sneaking in the 1bar or .9 bar spring during my next oil change. I won't install it myself. I installed the fuel enrichment device in anticipate of mods such as this. I wish I have the money to also do the GHL Header/ Heat Exchanger.
Sonny</strong><hr></blockquote>
05-23-2002, 12:12 PM
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John,
I removed and replaced the primary muffler on the right side of the car with a "J" pipe almost a year ago and I love it. Now I don't have any muffler any more and save about 20 lbs. I still have the Cat. as I don't want any issues with emission every 2 years, which is coming up.
In term of sound, I don't know why people would spend $1k for a muffler on a Turbo car, unless they want it very loud. I only want it loud under load, and just a little more throatiness (sp?) at idle, and I think I got that. When you have a chance to listen I think you will like this solution too. The cool part if when you back off the throttle, there is a lot of burble sound like an old gt2 on the track, very cool
.
I would love to have the header system from GHL too, but that'll only be on my wish list until I'am back to work again.
The funny thing is that I really like the original characteristics of the C2 Turbo. That's some lag and then the boost kicks in FUN FUN FUN. Now that my car is very very drivable around town, I don't want to have the boost come on too soon. I just want a whole lot more power so I get that feeling of being push back in the seat... <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> and feel scare. I don't like power that is too linear, you don't feel fast anymore like the 996TT even though you are going very fast. I don't know if this make any sense to other, but this is what I want.
Ok, I am off.... sorry for the rant... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
Sonny
I removed and replaced the primary muffler on the right side of the car with a "J" pipe almost a year ago and I love it. Now I don't have any muffler any more and save about 20 lbs. I still have the Cat. as I don't want any issues with emission every 2 years, which is coming up.
In term of sound, I don't know why people would spend $1k for a muffler on a Turbo car, unless they want it very loud. I only want it loud under load, and just a little more throatiness (sp?) at idle, and I think I got that. When you have a chance to listen I think you will like this solution too. The cool part if when you back off the throttle, there is a lot of burble sound like an old gt2 on the track, very cool
.I would love to have the header system from GHL too, but that'll only be on my wish list until I'am back to work again.
The funny thing is that I really like the original characteristics of the C2 Turbo. That's some lag and then the boost kicks in FUN FUN FUN. Now that my car is very very drivable around town, I don't want to have the boost come on too soon. I just want a whole lot more power so I get that feeling of being push back in the seat... <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> and feel scare. I don't like power that is too linear, you don't feel fast anymore like the 996TT even though you are going very fast. I don't know if this make any sense to other, but this is what I want.
Ok, I am off.... sorry for the rant... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
Sonny
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05-24-2002, 12:44 AM
#8
I know exactly what u mean but the power kicking in.
We should definitely compare sounds, but its not like either one of us will switch. Im thinking about headers too, it will only be louder for you though. If i never went on the drives or know so many crazy-a$$ gear heads, I think my car is fast enough.
[quote]Originally posted by SonnyV:
<strong>John,
... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
Sonny</strong><hr></blockquote>
We should definitely compare sounds, but its not like either one of us will switch. Im thinking about headers too, it will only be louder for you though. If i never went on the drives or know so many crazy-a$$ gear heads, I think my car is fast enough.
[quote]Originally posted by SonnyV:
<strong>John,
... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
Sonny</strong><hr></blockquote>
05-24-2002, 02:25 PM
#9
Drifting
Anytime you increase boost in a turbocharged car, it's imperative that you check your mixture. Because I race turbo cars (my 400hp 2.0L hillclimb racer), I get quite a few turbo guys sending me their dyno charts. I always ask them for the ones with the a/f mixture on it.
It amazes me to see that so many cars, especially the C2 Turbos are run so lean and the shop doing the work feels that's ok. One of the dyno plots sent to me only a week ago is of a C2T with a 1.0bar spring running on 94 octane fuel. That car's a/f ratio is 13.75:1 at 5000rpm! In my humble opinion, that's way too lean for a turbo car. I prefer to see between 11.5-12.5:1 on most turbo cars. Some of the really sophisticated cars can go as high as 13:1 if you're careful.
Another interesting thing I've noted is that there seems to be a lot of variance between different C2 Turbos, something I never saw in the 944 Turbo world or the Talon world. One guy will stick in a 1.0bar spring and get 12.5:1, while the other guy will be in the piston smashing 14.5:1 range. Don't trust speed recipes on this car.
Stick it on a dyno with a wideband O2 sensor and map it against rpm. Get an Andial fuel device or a Lee Rice or whatever method works for you and adjust accordingly. I don't know what mixture this car likes as my dyno day is scheduled for thursday next week. I would bet it's around 12.5:1, maybe PhD can jump in and give his experience on what works best on this car.
fc-racer
It amazes me to see that so many cars, especially the C2 Turbos are run so lean and the shop doing the work feels that's ok. One of the dyno plots sent to me only a week ago is of a C2T with a 1.0bar spring running on 94 octane fuel. That car's a/f ratio is 13.75:1 at 5000rpm! In my humble opinion, that's way too lean for a turbo car. I prefer to see between 11.5-12.5:1 on most turbo cars. Some of the really sophisticated cars can go as high as 13:1 if you're careful.
Another interesting thing I've noted is that there seems to be a lot of variance between different C2 Turbos, something I never saw in the 944 Turbo world or the Talon world. One guy will stick in a 1.0bar spring and get 12.5:1, while the other guy will be in the piston smashing 14.5:1 range. Don't trust speed recipes on this car.
Stick it on a dyno with a wideband O2 sensor and map it against rpm. Get an Andial fuel device or a Lee Rice or whatever method works for you and adjust accordingly. I don't know what mixture this car likes as my dyno day is scheduled for thursday next week. I would bet it's around 12.5:1, maybe PhD can jump in and give his experience on what works best on this car.
fc-racer
05-30-2002, 09:44 AM
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One question I have is I see a lot of general "X bar is OK" I have a 3.3 T2 and the CR on that motor is 7.0-1 if you have a 3.6 T2 your CR is 7.5-1. how much does the 1/2 point give you on the 1.0 bar safety net?
Kevin
Kevin
