That's really funny

 

You didnt listen but i like your point of getting all the nasty you can get legally ! ( well if you dont count speeding on a clear road ! ).Who needs drugs when you have boost on tap.

As to comparing with a 993 NA , i found them dull , better as a daily driver or something.. 964 NA more engaging.Both need mods to make fun.

 

I confess I'm a little surprised by the review you made. IMHO the 993 TT it's superior to the 964 TT (leave alone the S) as Sonny V pointed, but I know most of the guys here don't share my opinion.

 

its personal. and depends on definition of 'superior'. if one were to mean zero to 60 in X seconds, then maybe. if by newer and more modern technologies, then maybe. but end of day, i would point out that based on my review, 964 turbo prices are now exceeding by a good margin similarly spec'd 993 turbo prices. is that an indication? nah.
ultimately, its what you like. i can and do only state my opinion. i've had about 6 993s of various sort (c2s, c4s, turbo, turbo S) and i still have as well. if its a great sunny 75 degree day and i have 2 hours to kill, the kids are occupied, the wife is occupried, and daddy gets some time for daddy stuff, and i have to choose, its the 964. just personal. no exact answer. no right or wrong. just opinions. They are both insane cars.

 

Thanks for your input. When we reach the heart level I'm forced to agree with you 101%. In fact we all have our personal tastes and choices that I fully respect. I was wonder about the objective factor not the subjective one. I am also a 964 "guy" but objectively I think the 993 Turbo it's better than the 964. Better performance, better handling, better engineering, better market reputation and so on.
I am curious about one thing: I don't remember see you with a water cooled Porsche. Have you ever consider getting a GT3 or a GT2 instead of owning such amount of identical cars? If you have them or if you have driven them I would like to know what was your opinion about them.

 

In the end it is all personal preference and completely subjective. Hard to be objective with such a subject matter.

For me, it is like the ad said "calling it transportation is like calling sex (964), reproduction (993)
parentheses mine.

RW

 

My first turbo was a 996. i just never fell in love with it. did it drive nice? yeah it did. super nice. but no love. i also have a big dis-taste for gizmos. the blinking lights, and leds, and i hate Navigation (in my Toyota Tundra, love it, in a 911, annoying and uncollectible long term). all the new cars have great stuff, but the attention to detail , the leather, the buttons, the switches in the 993/964s/older stuff all have more warmth and color and pinache'. from a collectibility perspective, the 993 and 964s , both > 10 years old , have withstood the test of time, and availability fo product.
you need something for those cars, 9 online guys can overnight to you in a heart beat.

my concern with a997 GT2 is that stuff is so electronic, so complex, that 12 years from now, you'll need to replace the LCD and someone will say "LCD, whats that?" stuff these days is SO advanced technologically that its shelf life is 1 season. its why i LOVE BestBuy'ers buyer protection only on gizmos like ipods and cameras. 2 years from now, they get whacked (or i whack them!<G>) you take it in there, they have to replace. they dont have the old anymore, and its more costly to replace.
i dont see porsche maintaining an excess inventory in electronics which will be replaced and outdated in a year. atleast with the 993s, they were around for ahwile, stuff didnt change "that much".
thats just how i see it. great driveers i think the aircooleds are....but i just dont see them being collectible. definatley not the 996GT2 which some people dislike. maybe, just maybe the 997GT2 but only because they adopted some of the styling of the 993GT2.

and while the taste thing is subjective, if one is to believe market forces, supply demand....then, no disrespect to water cooled pcars, they dont hold a candle to the aircooled. market forces say the aircooled hold or appreciate value better.

as for 993 vs 964, again, while subjective....lately, the last 12 months, the 964 has done far better than a 993 despite being 3,4 years old.

its all small potatoes. they both rock. its just what rocks you. latr.

 

Interesting points... I too judge 911s based on "rawness" and that old-school feel. I have to agree with zicoramone - the 996 GT3 is a 996 in skin only. IMHO, it is a throwback 911 that excites me more than i can relay in words. The 997 GT3 adds more drive-by-wire capabilities, and IMHO takes the edge off. If the 93/94 RSA is an indication of the future (they are selling in the $40-$50K+ range with track mileage), I believe the "raw" 996 GT2 & GT3 will become the DE enthusiast's choice over the next decade. People complain about the 996 GT2 because it was hard to drive. The same thing has been said about the 996 GT3. All I can say is "whatever"... If you are used to old school 911s, you will be in heaven in a 996 GT2 or GT3. Of course, you can not make that declaration if beauty is only skin deep. So to those that discredit the 996 variants of the GT2 & GT3, please drive one, then let us know your thoughts...

On the 964/993 debate, I would highly recommend the 964 Turbo. They are more rare than the 993s and will be a great investment and a blast to drive. I love my 964, and look forward to buying a 964 Turbo someday in the near future.

My $0.02,
-Blake

 

Ignoring modified cars and talking bog standard factory cars my experience is as follows. 964 3.3 and 3.6 both feel heavy and hewn from granite. 3.3 not much happens below 4000rpm 3.6 not much happens below 3000rpm. Power delivery on 3.6 more user friendly on the passenger. 993 turbo 4. Feels a much lighter car, more chuckable and less lightly to bite. No big power surge like the 964's. On a track the one I drove understeered like a pig. Absolutely horrible. In truth we all have had different experiences with the same models. You could test drive back to back six 993's (normally aspirated) and they'll all feel a little different. The fastest bog standard 993 I have ever driven was guards red, tiptronic and an absolute flying machine. Some are quick some are not, some handle well, others are pigs.

 

first, i love these threads because you get intelligent reasoned responses, and sometimes some drama. its funny because when you said it, i said to myself, "am i only skin deep" when it comes to my car attractions. i might be. not sure i'm proud about it, but i might say the following. we can all agree, and i dont think anyone would ever disagree that just about most of the pcars in the turbo, gt2, gt3, c2s c4s and frankly every other model, are phenomenal drivers. some features and technologies make them more or less attractive to different people. if i had no option to choose, i'd be ecstatic to own any.
sure, a 993 might go zero to 60 X tenths of a second faster than a 964 but a) i cant shift fast enough to tell a difference, b) i cant tell a difference though a scientistic on a test track with a stop watch could, and c) they both give a crazy grin and smile reflecting a wild adrelanine rush . in all those models, the rush is great.
so yeah, for me, it then comes down to the skin. thats the tangible for me that makes me want to blow off work early on a nice day and get some seat time. its that which keeps all of us posting up here to exclusion of our wives and other interests..... i owned a BMW M6 for a very short period of time. i thought i'd use it for driving to work, business meetings, dinners out....from a driving perspective, while not 911-quick, it was a pretty well built, machine. i ahd some idrive complaints, but there were some cool things in that car, and that thing, for a touring car, could rip. but i just couldnt get behind it. i couldnt fall in love with it. that thing just sat and sat and sat. i sold it a few months later.

conversely, i had a gorgeous gt500 and a gt350, incredibly original shelby;s i bot at an estate sale form the south. if you lined up the whte 964 flatnose, th 993 artic black 600mile turbo s, and the gt35o outside my warehouse on a workday, yo'd have about 50 people lined up gawking at the gt350. people wouldnt spend 1 second on the porsches "you just get that german car at Paul Miller? i heard they had a good lease program". but i oculdnt keep those either. as awsome as they looked (and they were insane), as narly as they sounded (those engines would rattle the glasses off my shelves), they drove , well, like fat pigs with wings. truck bed chassis. nasty. bye bye.

i love my wife. we're married 14 years, 3 kids. there is no straying.
but when it comes to my cars, skin deep matters; if she dont have a tush that makes my lick my lips, it aint happening. infidelity will occur and i wont feel better about it.

 

I was talking about a 91-92 964t vs. a 993NA. Thery are in the same club race class for a reason. The 3.6t is significantly faster in a straight line than a 91-92 or the 993NA. The 3.6T is about the same as a 993tt. I am talking about cars with stock engines, stock boost, but headers and straight exhausts.

Here's some video from various tracks I raced with comparisons: '91 964t speed comparison

 

spg993tt - I apologize if I came across with a tone of judgement, as none was intended... I am completely with you on the looks thing... My garage is set up so that I can stare at my triple black 964 Speedster... I have 800+ watts of spotlight shining down on it, and to me, the car is pure art. My point about the GT3 is that I find it hideous to look at (it is true - I hate the 996 body styling), but my grin is bigger than it is in any other Porsche when driving it... The clear distinction here is that, in my mind, the driving element is key for a DE/track car. For the street, pure "art" wins every time in my book!

-B

 

I am like you. My cars have to look good to me first. Performance can be improved, but the looks of the car is hard to change without making it look ricey, and it also devalues the car too.

For that reason, my last 3 Porsches had/have been all widebody. I would not buy a narrow body Porsche. This is one more reason to pony up more money for the 997 GT3 RS, instead of the normal 997 GT3.

 

Yes, we are tuned here. That is exactly what I feel. I have always appreciate the old school air types, but the first time I drove a dry sump single mass flywheel MKI GT3 I felt like I was going to cry. That is pure raw feeling. The engine sound over 6K rpm is unbelievable.


Good point on the Gizmos stuff! I couldn't agree more. I hate them too. And I hate other things in a Porsche like the sunroof (a 993 disease) or the cup holder. You centered your answer in the turbo and the GT2 (an evolution of the Turbo IMHO) but I was thinking more about the GT3 and the GT3 RS. The Turbo and the GT2 take a completely different direction than the one taken by the GT3 and GT3 RS. The GT2 invests in luxury and comfort while the GT3/RS bets on the spartan feel oriented to the track. The turbo and the GT2 are made for tuxedo guys. The GT3/RS are made for the Recaro suit guys.
As you remember, when the first GT3 RS appear, Porsche saved 10 gr in the weight by just putting a sticker crest at the front. They don't joke with these cars.
So, in the end my guess is that is absolutely impossible for you (according to your exquisite taste in cars) not to like a GT3/RS. It's Porsche at their best.

 

Great thread. I have owned a 94 RSA, at 993 C2S, and now a 3.6T ( for the past 5 years). I had a highly modified 84 930 in there too I guess. The C2S was a very short lived relationship. Great car, but compared to my RSA, just not as involving on the road or track, and once I got her home, she just did not have the same classic lines. The C2S was probably a little quicker, but not much. I then decided I liked the old style hand built whate tails. The size of the car was right, the solid feel, and the driving experience required more input and finesse. These are not daily drivers for me. That being said, the 3.6T combined the feel and the power I was looking for. Plus the exclusivity was a bonus, 993's were on every corner in my neighborhood. Everyone from enthusiasts to Tiptronic grocery getters. Ever met a 965 owner that was not a pretty hard core enthusiast? Me either. Mine has since been molested by modifications to the suspension and motor , but maintains the classic exterior to a T. I really thought about a GT3 last year, until I drove one again. Great car, don't get me wrong, but my the seat of my pants kept waiting for the boost, and it just never came. I looked to the 996TT, fast, linear, but kind of numb to drive. Maybe too good a car? Biased as I may be, the 965 is really a great car for the weekend warrior that wants to be part of the car.