89 930 vs 964 Turbo
06-14-2007, 03:22 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by SonnyV
Sorry, did not see your other post. please ignore this one.
There is no accurate way of knowing how many US cars made there way to Canada. Adrian made comments about that. He had also mentioned that some cars made their way throughout North and South America but how many we will never know. So in actuality how many still reside in the US? I am sure much less than we realize. If you start adding up how many cars have been totaled and how many have salvage titles or modified etc. There are much fewer stock clean cars out there than we know.
I have been keeping track of the 964 Turbo and 928 GTS markets. The 94 turbos and GTS's are almost identical in production numbers and I am starting to see the same cars coming up for sale again after only a few years of watching. So although it seems like there are many a good portion of these cars trade hands repeatedly.
06-14-2007, 05:07 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
I agree Cobalt about the 91 and 92. Not to mention the 3.3l is basically unchanged from the 89 and earlier cars.
I have also seen a couple of the same 964t's for sale.
Bill
I have also seen a couple of the same 964t's for sale.
Bill
06-14-2007, 07:10 PM
#33
Aficionado
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Originally Posted by cobalt
A point of education.
One thing you will find about most Porsche models is that performance is pretty much constant. Although the cars become more refined with each model change performance is not much different. I found that out the other day when having a spirited run through twisties and long straights in my 964 C2. I was fallowing a lamborghini Countach and a 996 C4S and my little 250 hp C2 was not only able to keep up but actually was pulling on both albeit ever so slightly. I was also able to out handle both easily. I will say that my C2 is nicely prepared so this helps but with some modern updates these older cars are no less fast than the newer ones. Although in a straight line the C4S will win once moving the C2 is faster. This can also be seen on many track events.
Power
Now getting to the power vs performance of a 964 3.6T vs a 993TT and a 996TT. In stock form it is well documented that all cars are very equal.
The 94 turbo 3.6 in stock form (360BHP) has been tested and easily meets these acceleration numbers
0-62.5 mph 4.6 secs, 0-99.5 mph 9.5 secs, 0-124mph 15.0 secs, standing kilometer 22.5 secs, max speed 179.5 mph
The 993TT in stock form (408BHP)
0-62.5mph 4.3 secs, 0-99.5mph 9.5 secs, 0-124mph 15.1 secs, standing kilometer 22.4 secs, max speed 181 mph.
The 996TT in stock form (420BHP) 0-62.5 mph 4.3 secs, 0-100 mph 9.5 secs, 0-124mph 15.0 secs, standing kilometer 22.6 secs, max speed 191 mph.
As you can see on paper there is little difference except for the max speed which none of us can use here in the US. How can this be? Well each new generation is heavier and the addition of 4 wheel drive vs rear wheel drive adds for additional drive train loss.
Yes each car can handle better than the previous model because of new technologies and improved suspension but I prefer my car to be sans electronic aids and with modernized suspension components that is no longer an issue at a very reasonable expense. Yes the 94 turbo is a handful compared to the others. Yes it takes a more skilled driver to consistently match each model up. Yes it is so much more of a blast to drive. There was an article in Excellence Mag a few years back testing the 959 vs a 94 turbo S, 993TTS and 996TT around Sebring IIRC. All cars came in very close to each other and although the 996TT was voted best because of it's ease to drive it was a new car on new tires vs the 94 with original old rubber and outdated suspension. The author Danny Sullivan said the car could have done better if it weren't for the tires.
With minor upgrades a 3.6T can easily put down 360+ hp to the ground and becomes a much much faster car than the numbers posted.
Exclusivity
Lets see, in the turbo family (non GT2 etc) what is more exclusive than than a 94 turbo 3.6? With only 409 US cars in stock from imported or 1,104 made world wide vs 6,314 of 993TT's and only God knows how many 996TT's I would say the 3.6T is slightly more exclusive than the rest. I also find that more people relate to the classic lines of the 964 than any other model.
Price
Currently the 94 turbo 3.6 is starting to edge out both other models here in the US because of the Exclusivity the realization that these cars are serious fun and a true sports car in every sense of the word. I have recently seen people trading in new 997TT's for 964Turbos for just this reason. Although the newer cars are incredibly capable out of the box they lack the raw feeling and exhilaration you get from driving the last of the single turbo beasts.
Now that I have beaten you up. I want to point out that all of these cars are great and you pick the car that suits your needs and interests. Not everyone wants the raw feeling or the challenge of driving the older cars although I for one do. I would love to have a 993TTS in my collection but my budget and or garage space does not warrant it. Although this would be as an addition to and not replacement of.
As far as your RS goes I wish they imported them to the US. Even the US RSA is a fabulous car. I find my C2 with many RS upgrade is one of the most fun cars to drive. It is quick, capable and a thrill to drive. You need to work at keeping it up to speed and need to shift 3 times to the turbos 1 and becomes tiring after long runs but can be so satisfying too. They are all good serve different purposes and would love to have them all.
One thing you will find about most Porsche models is that performance is pretty much constant. Although the cars become more refined with each model change performance is not much different. I found that out the other day when having a spirited run through twisties and long straights in my 964 C2. I was fallowing a lamborghini Countach and a 996 C4S and my little 250 hp C2 was not only able to keep up but actually was pulling on both albeit ever so slightly. I was also able to out handle both easily. I will say that my C2 is nicely prepared so this helps but with some modern updates these older cars are no less fast than the newer ones. Although in a straight line the C4S will win once moving the C2 is faster. This can also be seen on many track events.
Power
Now getting to the power vs performance of a 964 3.6T vs a 993TT and a 996TT. In stock form it is well documented that all cars are very equal.
The 94 turbo 3.6 in stock form (360BHP) has been tested and easily meets these acceleration numbers
0-62.5 mph 4.6 secs, 0-99.5 mph 9.5 secs, 0-124mph 15.0 secs, standing kilometer 22.5 secs, max speed 179.5 mph
The 993TT in stock form (408BHP)
0-62.5mph 4.3 secs, 0-99.5mph 9.5 secs, 0-124mph 15.1 secs, standing kilometer 22.4 secs, max speed 181 mph.
The 996TT in stock form (420BHP) 0-62.5 mph 4.3 secs, 0-100 mph 9.5 secs, 0-124mph 15.0 secs, standing kilometer 22.6 secs, max speed 191 mph.
As you can see on paper there is little difference except for the max speed which none of us can use here in the US. How can this be? Well each new generation is heavier and the addition of 4 wheel drive vs rear wheel drive adds for additional drive train loss.
Yes each car can handle better than the previous model because of new technologies and improved suspension but I prefer my car to be sans electronic aids and with modernized suspension components that is no longer an issue at a very reasonable expense. Yes the 94 turbo is a handful compared to the others. Yes it takes a more skilled driver to consistently match each model up. Yes it is so much more of a blast to drive. There was an article in Excellence Mag a few years back testing the 959 vs a 94 turbo S, 993TTS and 996TT around Sebring IIRC. All cars came in very close to each other and although the 996TT was voted best because of it's ease to drive it was a new car on new tires vs the 94 with original old rubber and outdated suspension. The author Danny Sullivan said the car could have done better if it weren't for the tires.
With minor upgrades a 3.6T can easily put down 360+ hp to the ground and becomes a much much faster car than the numbers posted.
Exclusivity
Lets see, in the turbo family (non GT2 etc) what is more exclusive than than a 94 turbo 3.6? With only 409 US cars in stock from imported or 1,104 made world wide vs 6,314 of 993TT's and only God knows how many 996TT's I would say the 3.6T is slightly more exclusive than the rest. I also find that more people relate to the classic lines of the 964 than any other model.
Price
Currently the 94 turbo 3.6 is starting to edge out both other models here in the US because of the Exclusivity the realization that these cars are serious fun and a true sports car in every sense of the word. I have recently seen people trading in new 997TT's for 964Turbos for just this reason. Although the newer cars are incredibly capable out of the box they lack the raw feeling and exhilaration you get from driving the last of the single turbo beasts.
Now that I have beaten you up. I want to point out that all of these cars are great and you pick the car that suits your needs and interests. Not everyone wants the raw feeling or the challenge of driving the older cars although I for one do. I would love to have a 993TTS in my collection but my budget and or garage space does not warrant it. Although this would be as an addition to and not replacement of.
As far as your RS goes I wish they imported them to the US. Even the US RSA is a fabulous car. I find my C2 with many RS upgrade is one of the most fun cars to drive. It is quick, capable and a thrill to drive. You need to work at keeping it up to speed and need to shift 3 times to the turbos 1 and becomes tiring after long runs but can be so satisfying too. They are all good serve different purposes and would love to have them all.
You can spend all the time you wish arguing that the 964 T is at the same level of the 993 TT but you will not convince me, sorry. The 993 TT is by far superior. You said that some people prefer the look of the 964 over newer generations. Ok. I buy that because it's true. But it is also true that there is a bunch of people today that still listen to "Beach Boys". The first time I drove a GT3 I thought to myself before getting in the car:"I hope after this I'm going to tell everyone that older Porsche's like the Carrera 2 don't differ much from it and the gap between the two cars it isn't that big or noticeable". Ho boy! How was I wrong. In ALL ASPECTS the GT3 smashed it. I don't have many words to described it. It's like trying to compare Nemo to a Shark.
By the way: Who are the 997 guys you mention that are planning to trade their Turbo for the 964? It is someone from this board?
Anyway Thank you for your attention and it's always a pleasure to debate things like this. Even if we share different points of view.
06-15-2007, 05:43 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
You guys are a model of diplomacy ! I have not had chance to test a 993tt but i have observed on their board that a growing number are converting their cars to RWD! I do know that i traded a bit of my 930s exciting feel for the more all round competence of my 94 and would not wish to trade more.
I know some find the 993tt superior - maybe they will enlighten us why.
I know some find the 993tt superior - maybe they will enlighten us why.
06-15-2007, 09:09 AM
#35
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I don't understand how there were 1992 91 model (M) code cars for made for US market when the serial # end in o674 (run from ms480001 -0674). Also if you talk to porsche North America they say the production numbers for US cars were for all of North america not just US ,they were built for US specs. ,and for 92 year mod. (N code ) cars out of the 309 produced 287 actually went originally to US and the rest to other parts of North America.
06-15-2007, 10:05 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by zicoramone
Just a remark: I don't own a RS (I wish..). My car is a GT3 ClubSport. I thank you the lesson but I pass it. I know very well the cars you mention and my opinion, for good or for bad, didn't change a millimeter. It's not that I disagree with you on several or many things. No. I share for example the same experiences that you refer when driving my 964 C2 against other cars like the 996 4S - that could be in fact slower than a spirited 964.
You can spend all the time you wish arguing that the 964 T is at the same level of the 993 TT but you will not convince me, sorry. The 993 TT is by far superior. You said that some people prefer the look of the 964 over newer generations. Ok. I buy that because it's true. But it is also true that there is a bunch of people today that still listen to "Beach Boys". The first time I drove a GT3 I thought to myself before getting in the car:"I hope after this I'm going to tell everyone that older Porsche's like the Carrera 2 don't differ much from it and the gap between the two cars it isn't that big or noticeable". Ho boy! How was I wrong. In ALL ASPECTS the GT3 smashed it. I don't have many words to described it. It's like trying to compare Nemo to a Shark.
By the way: Who are the 997 guys you mention that are planning to trade their Turbo for the 964? It is someone from this board?
Anyway Thank you for your attention and it's always a pleasure to debate things like this. Even if we share different points of view.
You can spend all the time you wish arguing that the 964 T is at the same level of the 993 TT but you will not convince me, sorry. The 993 TT is by far superior. You said that some people prefer the look of the 964 over newer generations. Ok. I buy that because it's true. But it is also true that there is a bunch of people today that still listen to "Beach Boys". The first time I drove a GT3 I thought to myself before getting in the car:"I hope after this I'm going to tell everyone that older Porsche's like the Carrera 2 don't differ much from it and the gap between the two cars it isn't that big or noticeable". Ho boy! How was I wrong. In ALL ASPECTS the GT3 smashed it. I don't have many words to described it. It's like trying to compare Nemo to a Shark.
By the way: Who are the 997 guys you mention that are planning to trade their Turbo for the 964? It is someone from this board?
Anyway Thank you for your attention and it's always a pleasure to debate things like this. Even if we share different points of view.
I find it interesting that you walked away from a 996 GT3 finding it superior and after my experiences I found it capable but not very exciting the 997 GT3 is a different story. The GT3's I drove were beyond a bit nervous and lifeless until 5500 rpm. For a street car they did nothing for me. On the track I would chose a GT3 over the turbo no doubt. The turbo is too much of a handful to drive consistently making the GT3 an easier choice for a track car. For the street I wouldn't think twice on passing by a GT3. It is just not a fun street car IMO. I actually would prefer my C2 over a GT3 on the street but that is me.
I have had spirited runs in my turbo with GT3's and in some ways the GT3 excelled in others it was lacking. My turbo in current form walks from the 996GT3's I have had fun with. (capable drivers BTW). At an AX event the GT3 would laugh at my turbo and most other cars. Once past 20 mph the turbo is monstrously fast in comparison to a GT3. Acceleration and shear power is on the turbos side handling out of the box the GT3. 60-130 runs are no contest turbo hands down. With slight mods the turbo catches right up in handling and there have been videos of 964 turbo 3.6's posted on this board smashing GT3's in races.
As we all know any of these cars can be made faster or better and with the right driver a formidable weapon. I have a friend that has done club racing for many years and his 930 consistently trounces GT3's all day long on the track but he is one hell of a driver. You should see him in his vintage Can AM racer.
I have driven many 993TT's and they are great cars but excitement is somewhat lacking in comparison to the single turbo cars way more refined. It is seldom that you get to use these cars close to their ultimate capabilities on the street so not always does one chose a car for its abilities at the limits. A 993TT modified can be exciting but you will need to drive way to fast on the street to appreciate it. I have also found my 964T to be faster than most of the stage 1 993TT's I have had fun with.
Maybe you have not driven the right 964 turbos and I have not driven the right GT3's but smashing it I can't agree with but as I said you pick your car that suits your needs. Unless it is a 997GT3/RS I have no interest in the 996GT3's for me.
Originally Posted by al 965
I don't understand how there were 1992 91 model (M) code cars for made for US market when the serial # end in o674 (run from ms480001 -0674). Also if you talk to porsche North America they say the production numbers for US cars were for all of North america not just US ,they were built for US specs. ,and for 92 year mod. (N code ) cars out of the 309 produced 287 actually went originally to US and the rest to other parts of North America.
Yes these numbers reflect all US spec cars whether they were sold in the Continental US or Columbia I couldn't tell you. So by all rights there might only be only 300 94 turbos in the US and many less than the 1992 91's but PCNA has no records on it and no way of finding out unless we tracked down each car.
06-15-2007, 12:39 PM
#37
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Anthony,
I've also seen the "287" number - but it was many years ago and I can't remember the source.
I do know that it took me an entire year of looking, with others helping, to find a cherry 1992 Turbo. The numbers were very low and I didn't have E-bay and other internet sites available back then. It was after I finally found the car that I was made aware of the "287" number and then realized why it had taken so much effort to find the car. Whether it was/is 287 or 309 - in any case, the 1992's are rare. When you add in the "totalled by rich kid" factor, the remainung number is very low.
As regards the original inquiry - one very big difference between the "89" Turbo and "92" turbo is the suspension modifications. They make the "92" far less prone to -rear end coming at you - mishaps.
I've also seen the "287" number - but it was many years ago and I can't remember the source.
I do know that it took me an entire year of looking, with others helping, to find a cherry 1992 Turbo. The numbers were very low and I didn't have E-bay and other internet sites available back then. It was after I finally found the car that I was made aware of the "287" number and then realized why it had taken so much effort to find the car. Whether it was/is 287 or 309 - in any case, the 1992's are rare. When you add in the "totalled by rich kid" factor, the remainung number is very low.
As regards the original inquiry - one very big difference between the "89" Turbo and "92" turbo is the suspension modifications. They make the "92" far less prone to -rear end coming at you - mishaps.
06-15-2007, 01:21 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by RoadKill
Anthony,
I've also seen the "287" number - but it was many years ago and I can't remember the source.
I do know that it took me an entire year of looking, with others helping, to find a cherry 1992 Turbo. The numbers were very low and I didn't have E-bay and other internet sites available back then. It was after I finally found the car that I was made aware of the "287" number and then realized why it had taken so much effort to find the car. Whether it was/is 287 or 309 - in any case, the 1992's are rare. When you add in the "totalled by rich kid" factor, the remainung number is very low.
As regards the original inquiry - one very big difference between the "89" Turbo and "92" turbo is the suspension modifications. They make the "92" far less prone to -rear end coming at you - mishaps.
I've also seen the "287" number - but it was many years ago and I can't remember the source.
I do know that it took me an entire year of looking, with others helping, to find a cherry 1992 Turbo. The numbers were very low and I didn't have E-bay and other internet sites available back then. It was after I finally found the car that I was made aware of the "287" number and then realized why it had taken so much effort to find the car. Whether it was/is 287 or 309 - in any case, the 1992's are rare. When you add in the "totalled by rich kid" factor, the remainung number is very low.
As regards the original inquiry - one very big difference between the "89" Turbo and "92" turbo is the suspension modifications. They make the "92" far less prone to -rear end coming at you - mishaps.
I think the reason the # 287 always pops up is because of the 20 S2's that seem to get separated out. Although these were delivered from the factory as stock turbos and then shipped to Andial to be converted. Just as you will see either 409 or 466 for the 94 turbos that had the additional S models sometimes included and other times not.
As far as the 89 vs 91's they are considerably different other than the engine. Even though they used a G50 tranny it was no the G50/52 nor do I believe it had the 20/100 LSD and the 964 body was 85% different than the previous body. It was much stronger and stiffer and also incorporated ABS standard, Air bags, coil over suspension, much larger brakes, revised electrical & ignition system, larger IC, K27 turbo, etc . The down side to the 964 T was it weighed about 300 pounds more than it's 89 brother.
06-15-2007, 01:21 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by cobalt
Where are you getting these numbers from. The info I have shows production serial numbers to be higher and I have seen 91 964 turbos with higher serial numbers than 0674.
It states M prog. US turbos as being 674. 0001-0674.
06-15-2007, 01:34 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by nathanUK '81 930 G50
It would appear to me this data came from the Porsche 911 Red Book.
It states M prog. US turbos as being 674. 0001-0674.
It states M prog. US turbos as being 674. 0001-0674.
I do recall seeing numbers above 674 and I did go over this with Adrian in depth. I will keep on searching and see if I can find out anything else. I have also seen conflicting numbers on total worldwide production which range from around 3300 to 5323 depending on the source. If the actual number is lower than 674 would make sense if higher I would assume the 1992 would be correct.
06-16-2007, 01:21 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by nathanUK '81 930 G50
Weird. Somebody has it wrong.
Major Edit from previous posting.
After further review, Adrian's numbers correspond with several other sources for total produced. So I would say that there is an error in listed vin #'s. Only way to tell is keep looking at cars for sale and when the first one with a vin # over 674 shows up we will know for sure.
Last edited by cobalt; 06-17-2007 at 07:11 AM.
06-16-2007, 04:40 PM
#43
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Here is my 2 pence worth.
For the moment lets talk standard cars. 930 versus 964 turbo. 930 lovely car, no power steering and will load the steering wheel through corners, average brakes that lock the fronts easily, more archaic but beautiful none the less. In truth a mint 930 in my opinion looks even sexier on 16" fuchs (in silver) than my 964 3.6 does on its 18" speedlines. However the 964 3.3 or 3.6 is a much nicer place to be live when driving. The 3.6 over the 3.3 feels more torqueier and produces boost earlier on. Power steering, power brakes and big red calipers on the 3.6.
993 TT. 4 wheel drive,(no thanks) build quality starting to suffer, understeers, feels a lot lighter than a 964 turbo and does not have that hewn from granite feel that the 964's have. 996 GT3. raced supercup variants and driven a 996GT3clubsport gemballa 600, what a load of plastic rubbish. Supercup cars very accomplished but purely a tool to do a job and no soul.
So with that all said why am I about to buy a 993GT2 and sell my 964 3.6 to enable me to do this. Well I have always loved the look of the GT2 and it is the the best air cooled turbo that Porsche built. I prefer the power delivery of the 3.6 over the GT2. It feels to sanitised and does not give you that big torque feel that we all love. The six speed gearbox is a waste of time as 1st gear is too short. As much as I adore the beauty of the GT2 I am going to have to play around with it to give it more of the 3.6 feel. The cargraphic exhaust sounds great from outside but when you drive it it does not even sound like a bloody 911.
For the moment lets talk standard cars. 930 versus 964 turbo. 930 lovely car, no power steering and will load the steering wheel through corners, average brakes that lock the fronts easily, more archaic but beautiful none the less. In truth a mint 930 in my opinion looks even sexier on 16" fuchs (in silver) than my 964 3.6 does on its 18" speedlines. However the 964 3.3 or 3.6 is a much nicer place to be live when driving. The 3.6 over the 3.3 feels more torqueier and produces boost earlier on. Power steering, power brakes and big red calipers on the 3.6.
993 TT. 4 wheel drive,(no thanks) build quality starting to suffer, understeers, feels a lot lighter than a 964 turbo and does not have that hewn from granite feel that the 964's have. 996 GT3. raced supercup variants and driven a 996GT3clubsport gemballa 600, what a load of plastic rubbish. Supercup cars very accomplished but purely a tool to do a job and no soul.
So with that all said why am I about to buy a 993GT2 and sell my 964 3.6 to enable me to do this. Well I have always loved the look of the GT2 and it is the the best air cooled turbo that Porsche built. I prefer the power delivery of the 3.6 over the GT2. It feels to sanitised and does not give you that big torque feel that we all love. The six speed gearbox is a waste of time as 1st gear is too short. As much as I adore the beauty of the GT2 I am going to have to play around with it to give it more of the 3.6 feel. The cargraphic exhaust sounds great from outside but when you drive it it does not even sound like a bloody 911.
06-18-2007, 09:36 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Colorado964turbo
#181 of MY1992 964 Turbo production here. maybe we should start a thread asking for vin numbers?
Bill
Bill
I have a long list of 94's not many 91-92's. They are on a notebook that has a bad keyboard I will see if I can extract the info.