dholling13

I agree, but for 42k, jump in the water!

zicoramone

Well, I am a 964 guy and never had a 993. I respect your opinion and I understand your point of view and the way you guys defend your queen. However IMHO the 993 TT is in another league - for many reasons - like power, performance, exclusivity and price, and for being the last of that era. I'm sure the 930 T guys will tell us that there is only one original Turbo, and the 996 TT guys will tell us that the 993 TT is much more weaker and still lag. Me for once, prefer non turbo Porsche's and minimal equipment. Some prefer the luxury of the Turbo/GT2 range and others (like me) prefer the "poverty" of the RS badge. Luckily for us, all of them are great.

Colorado964turbo

The 993TT cars are awesome, but with the AWD just don't feel the same and I can only imagine require more maint. Of course my 'heavy' turbo doesn't feel anything like an early 911 S either...

To each their own.

cobalt

A point of education.

One thing you will find about most Porsche models is that performance is pretty much constant. Although the cars become more refined with each model change performance is not much different. I found that out the other day when having a spirited run through twisties and long straights in my 964 C2. I was fallowing a lamborghini Countach and a 996 C4S and my little 250 hp C2 was not only able to keep up but actually was pulling on both albeit ever so slightly. I was also able to out handle both easily. I will say that my C2 is nicely prepared so this helps but with some modern updates these older cars are no less fast than the newer ones. Although in a straight line the C4S will win once moving the C2 is faster. This can also be seen on many track events.

Power

Now getting to the power vs performance of a 964 3.6T vs a 993TT and a 996TT. In stock form it is well documented that all cars are very equal.

The 94 turbo 3.6 in stock form (360BHP) has been tested and easily meets these acceleration numbers
0-62.5 mph 4.6 secs, 0-99.5 mph 9.5 secs, 0-124mph 15.0 secs, standing kilometer 22.5 secs, max speed 179.5 mph

The 993TT in stock form (408BHP)
0-62.5mph 4.3 secs, 0-99.5mph 9.5 secs, 0-124mph 15.1 secs, standing kilometer 22.4 secs, max speed 181 mph.

The 996TT in stock form (420BHP) 0-62.5 mph 4.3 secs, 0-100 mph 9.5 secs, 0-124mph 15.0 secs, standing kilometer 22.6 secs, max speed 191 mph.

As you can see on paper there is little difference except for the max speed which none of us can use here in the US. How can this be? Well each new generation is heavier and the addition of 4 wheel drive vs rear wheel drive adds for additional drive train loss.

Yes each car can handle better than the previous model because of new technologies and improved suspension but I prefer my car to be sans electronic aids and with modernized suspension components that is no longer an issue at a very reasonable expense. Yes the 94 turbo is a handful compared to the others. Yes it takes a more skilled driver to consistently match each model up. Yes it is so much more of a blast to drive. There was an article in Excellence Mag a few years back testing the 959 vs a 94 turbo S, 993TTS and 996TT around Sebring IIRC. All cars came in very close to each other and although the 996TT was voted best because of it's ease to drive it was a new car on new tires vs the 94 with original old rubber and outdated suspension. The author Danny Sullivan said the car could have done better if it weren't for the tires.

With minor upgrades a 3.6T can easily put down 360+ hp to the ground and becomes a much much faster car than the numbers posted.

Exclusivity

Lets see, in the turbo family (non GT2 etc) what is more exclusive than than a 94 turbo 3.6? With only 409 US cars in stock from imported or 1,104 made world wide vs 6,314 of 993TT's and only God knows how many 996TT's I would say the 3.6T is slightly more exclusive than the rest. I also find that more people relate to the classic lines of the 964 than any other model.

Price

Currently the 94 turbo 3.6 is starting to edge out both other models here in the US because of the Exclusivity the realization that these cars are serious fun and a true sports car in every sense of the word. I have recently seen people trading in new 997TT's for 964Turbos for just this reason. Although the newer cars are incredibly capable out of the box they lack the raw feeling and exhilaration you get from driving the last of the single turbo beasts.

Now that I have beaten you up. I want to point out that all of these cars are great and you pick the car that suits your needs and interests. Not everyone wants the raw feeling or the challenge of driving the older cars although I for one do. I would love to have a 993TTS in my collection but my budget and or garage space does not warrant it. Although this would be as an addition to and not replacement of.

As far as your RS goes I wish they imported them to the US. Even the US RSA is a fabulous car. I find my C2 with many RS upgrade is one of the most fun cars to drive. It is quick, capable and a thrill to drive. You need to work at keeping it up to speed and need to shift 3 times to the turbos 1 and becomes tiring after long runs but can be so satisfying too. They are all good serve different purposes and would love to have them all.

Colorado964turbo

Cobalt, what are the production numbers for the US for the 91 and 92 turbos?

cobalt

Off the top of my head it was something like 1992 for 91 and 312 for 92. Would have to verify that but it is within 5 cars accurate. Total world production was something like 5323 for the 3.3l turbos.

Colorado964turbo

Cool thanks, yeah I didn't think they made many of the 92's.

Bill

SA Mike

I think the key here in separateing the different models like Anthony said is refinement. Some prefer old school some prefer new. Engine, drivetrains, etc... for newer models are definatley smoother more technology laden. But when you sit in the older 930s, 964 models they have a feel, thats makes think is what Dr. Porsche's idea a sports car was like, the whirling, rumble noises it makes. As my salesman said to me when I purchased my 07 997S and looked and commented on another car in the showroom.."Mike ther're all nice"

SonnyV

For the US: '91 - 674, '92 - 309.

cobalt

Sorry but the US had just shy of 2000 for 1991 I am 100% positive of this, The 309 might be correct vs the 312 I stated for 92 but there is no doubt that there were over 2300 3.3l 964 turbos imported to the US.

cobalt

Sonny,

This was discussed before and here is a link to the thread.

If you scroll down to the PDF to Adrian's book you will see there were in fact 1992 made in 1991 and 309 for 1992 including the 20 S2's. I went back and forth with Adrian at the time of his publishing the book and it was finally agreed that these numbers were correct but the 94 turbo numbers were in fact only 466 in total including the S's. He later issued a supplement to the book to address the first 266 that were M718 coded.


https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...3l+turbos+made

Colorado964turbo

So in theory, there were less 92's for the US than 94's. Granted there really isn't that much of a difference between 91 and 92...

cobalt

Yes in theory, however there were no differences between the 2 MY's so they end up getting grouped together. Although there is some controversy whether LSD was an option or standard on the 91's but were standard for the 92's if that makes a difference.

Other than the America GS, 3.8RS & RSR's which are not considered production cars the 94 C4 widebody and America Roadster are the rarest of the US models yet they do not seem to command much more money than the narrow body cars because of the added weight and stock brakes.

SonnyV

Your figure could it be possible for North America, including Canada? My number is for US only. I think I got my number from Peter Morgan's Gold Series book. I would have to double check.

SonnyV

Sorry, did not see your other post. please ignore this one.