sl951

So I'm new to the 965 3.6 Turbo cars.. but after researching this board, I think I'm settling in on the following upgrades... let me know your thoughts or pitfalls to avoid. Also what should I expect in terms of power or street drivability.

The goal is keep within the 'spirit' of this rare car and not necessarily go for horsepower glory.

So here's my list...

- Aluminum Blow off valve (anodized black)
- TiaL waste gate with 0.8 bar spring
- Electronic Boost controller (HKS EVC 4) .. I just happen to have one.
- B&B headers/exhaust..came with car.
- Drill holes on the bottom of the airbox
- K27 7200 turbo (not sure about keeping) would like ball bearing
- CIS Fuel head mod? - do I need this?
- 964 NA Cams - should I stay with stock or is this worth it?

Planning to run the car on CA gas. 91 octane @ 0.8 bar. With the flexibility to run 100 octane @ 1.0 bar.

Thanks

Megatron-UK

I wouldn't bother with the drilled airbox thing - waste of time. Just stick a new filter element in there (K&N do one for the standard airbox).

Rest sounds good. Any idea what sort of power/torque that's going to be?

Frank 993 C4S

My only input is to drive the car before you do all of these mods and then focus on what you are trying to achieve. You seem to be primarily focused on power output. You might want to think about suspension as well if you plan to track the car.

sl951

Thanks for the inputs.

I have no plans to track this car. The plan is for a good street / slightly more powerful Sunday driver...for those planned Porsche fun drives.

As for suspension...

- I liked to lower it to European specs? How do I do this.. get 964 RS Springs or other?
- I also noticed 964 RS's came with a 2mm thicker front sway bar.. is this a good upgrade?

dholling13

- Aluminum Blow off valve (anodized black) yes at Imagine Auto
- TiaL waste gate with 0.8 bar spring yes at Imagine Auto
- Electronic Boost controller (HKS EVC 4) .. I just happen to have one. No, not necessary especially with 91 octane gas
- B&B headers/exhaust..came with car. Good a definite plus, gl with emissions
- Drill holes on the bottom of the airbox No, BMC filter kit from Imagine Auto, much easier to work on the car and sounds cooler.
- K27 7200 turbo (not sure about keeping) would like ball bearing. Imagine Auto High Flow S, if anything, but tial and BOV first IMO
- CIS Fuel head mod? - do I need this? No
- 964 NA Cams - should I stay with stock or is this worth it? When it's clutch time do this, but not before IMO

Suspension. www.shox.com Specify turbo and get the bilstein/H&R set up. Very good entry level street suspension.

cobalt

Particularity, I believe Frank's words are the smartest to begin with. Drive the car for a month and feel it out first. Then make your changes. I for one feel the suspension should be your first upgrade. The factory suspension is not very good and a simple bilstein/H&R or eibach upgrade is well worth the coin. It will do more for performance than just improve handling. It will keep the back end in control and stop it from bouncing around and loosing traction.

I for one believe the Tial WG is a great product but at the level you are looking to obtain an expensive and unnecessary upgrade at this early stage. The factory unit if working properly is more than capable and can flow more air than you need to worry about. The cams are nice but also not needed yet.

I think you will find a nice K27 HF with your controller and billet BOV, your exhaust and nothing else would be a good start. You can always add the other stuff later. You should be close to 365+ to the wheels which is a good starting point.

As far as the holes in the air box, it does make for a great sound at WOT but is really all you will gain.

cobalt

The RS sway bar won't fit our cars and finding a bigger or adjustable bar has become almost impossible to find. Although yes it would be nice to upgrade the sways also.

sl951

Being more specific...

Ideally, I'd like to have a 400WHP street car. Do you think the mod listed above will get me there?

I've driven the car. Other than the ride height, the suspension doesn't seem that bad for the street. Perhaps a tad , more rear squat than I like.. but it puts down the power. Body roll isn't too bad (street wise) so perhaps just springs and matching shocks.

- So I'll nix the holes in the airbox and just use a cone or K&N filter.

- Yes, when I do the clutch/top end.. you guys seems to agree the 964 N/A cams is a nice upgrade?? does this gain much or are their better CAM options..

- I have a new TiaL wastegate.. so I was planning to swap out the "tired stock one".

Reasons for a EBC or boost controller...

- The wastegate input line is directly tied with the intake. So as the boost approaches the wastegate spring tension... it starts to crack open. Most EBC or mechnical pressure relief type
valves allows the wastegate to remain close (thus boost spools quicker) then pops open at a predetermined boost setting.

- It also allows me to run 0.8 bar or 1.0bar.

If I run 1.0 bar boost is that asking too much fuel from the stock CIS system or is it more of an octane issue?


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I'm new to the unique nature of 965s, but not to P-cars..

I have a 944 Turbo 2.8 liter racecar 2600lbs, running 1bar on 91 octane and up to 1.3 bar on 100 octane. Moton race suspension

My fun track car is a 3.6 Vram 300HP conversion on 87 Carrera/G50 (2300 lbs) with spherical bushings and remote res. shocks.

I've worked on countless 928's

bogey1

Did you aready check the health of the motor, valves, etc.. before starting down this path? Anybody can sell you parts, I suggest picking one of the engine builders that support this site (several reputable folks here!), discuss waht you want the car to drive like, and then let them help you put the right balance into the mod's. Speaking from experience, that approach will save you $$, time, and keep your car in working order. I would also say that 400RWHP with CIS is maxed out in terms of safe power on 91 octane gas. To get there, you'll need the fuel head mod, 1BAR, cams, some head work, and everything else you have listed, and it still may not make it to an honest 400 on a MD dyno. A DynoJet may get that reading. You may not have to send the car/motor away, but working with one guy to source the project and advice is the way to go. (also, going to a ball bearing turbo is pretty involved on our cars. Mine is just being finished up, and there was a bit of fabrication required on the exhaust and IC, plus the cooling. If you go that route, I would definetely ship the motor to someone with a great reputation).

PTurbo965

+1

This is good advice. I would also add that the B&B headers may require some oil lines to be upgraded and rerouted, so you are not just talking about a few bolt on mods and everything working perfect.

Turbohead

- Aluminum Blow off valve (anodized black)....
good Idea

- TiaL waste gate with 0.8 bar spring .
your stock WG is good enough and has a.88 spring

- Electronic Boost controller (HKS EVC 4) .. I just happen to have one.
good idea will keep your WG closed until set point is reached ..more low end

- B&B headers/exhaust..came with car.
keep them good for honest 50 -60 HP are the cats gone???

- Drill holes on the bottom of the airbox
supposed to help I've done it in the past sounds cool.

- K27 7200 turbo (not sure about keeping) would like ball bearing
Ball bearings need water cooling plus alot of modifcation. Go with a K27HF just bolt on and no oiling issues.

- CIS Fuel head mod? - do I need this?
not at stock boost

- 964 NA Cams - should I stay with stock or is this worth it?
you already have 964 cams in a 3.6T

i had made 390 rwhp with a similar set up @1bar on a 3.6T
Good luck
Elliot

dholling13

I would send Stephen Kaspar an email and talk to him. Then go from there.

sl951

Thanks for the all responses...

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"you already have 964 cams in a 3.6T"

I believe I should have 964 Turbo CAMS. Aren't the 964 Normally Aspirated cams different? I believe so...

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Yes when it comes time to rebuild either the top end or bottom...
I'll probably get a minor port work and put in ARP head studs.
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I heard the stock intercooler is very good. So no need to touch this for 400 WHP.

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As for Turbos, I'm surprise there isn't more variety...from vendors, etc.

I've done K27 KKK, single BB Turbonetic / KKK hybrids, Full Garrett BB, and Innovative Dual Ball Bearings on 944 Turbo cars. I know the water cooling / V-band clamps, oil pressure, draining things involved.

Surprised no one is running TO4E type Turbonetics single Ball Bearing / KKK hybrids? I've had success with these without the need for water cooling.. it should bolt on, unless I'm missing something here.

cobalt

This is a strange subject. The PET says we have 964 N/A cams some engine builders disagree. Nobody has been able to verify or confirm other than their word. I know of 3 reputable shops that I trust that insist the lift and duration is different and 3 others, also reputable that claim their the same.

Someone needs to measure and compare.

Wish I could help more but Elliot has been through this recently.

I was told there is an EVO came that is supposed to be very nice but have no info either, although I believe that is used with EFI conversions.

Y65MPH

I would only upgrade your wastegate if you choose to change your turbo. As for ball bearing vs. journal bearing, stick with the journal bearing for CIS application. You will not be able to deliver enough fuel with the CIS system to support the air flow of a ball bearing turbo.

What would I do? Keep the stock wastegate (if it is good) and put in a 1 bar spring. Put on a free flow exhaust (get rid of the cat) and call it a day. The rest of the mods are more like putting lipstick on a pig (the pig being CIS).

Or do it really right and convert to EFI.

Craig