ThomasC2

I bought my car from Germany a couple of years ago and got a pile of invoices from the previous owners. A few days ago when I looked through the papers I saw a thing that I missed before.

On one invoice it says "Steuergerät ersetzt, Roock auf Serie". Is steuergerät the same thing as the ECU/chip? Roock should be the German Porsche tuner. Obviously I ran to the garage and took out the ECU. I could easily see that the box had been opened before. But when I opened the box I didn't find a Roock logo on the chip (as I hoped!), just a number printed in black on a silver sticker. The number is 1267 356 565.

My question is now if this is a common Porsche number/stock item, or is it something else? My car is C2, MY 92.

Thanks,

Adrian

Dear Thomas,
Means control unit replaced. By the rest of the facts you provide it appears you have a Roock ECU. The whole unit not just the chip. I am not surpirsed the chip does not have a Roock logo.
Ciao,
Asrian
964C4

Lorenfb

The number on the chip is a Bosch number which implies the chip is a
stock Porsche chip. Also, the label described is a standard Bosch label.

Good Luck
Loren

Adrian

Dear Thomas,
Your statement from the invoice clearly states that the ECU has been replaced. I suppose because you do not provide a copy of the invoice that it could also mean that the Roock ECU was replaced with a standard ECU. In these cases it helps if you provide all the information. The fact that the chip has a Bosch number is irrelevant. Roock just reprogram the originals. I have helped install Roock chips myself and the ones I have seen are not indentifiable apart from the paperwork that accompanies them. I actually have one sitting on my bookcase at home and it is from Roock but you would never know it.
The fact that the DME looks normal is also irrelevant. The clue there is that it has been opened. Therefore it is not normal. How far from normal or reverted to standard remains unclear. Only you have the data which can help unravel if this is a modification up or down invoice. I would make no assumptions based on what you physically see. The paperwork has to be reviewed to find the true story.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

ThomasC2

Thanks, for the input so far. I'm at work now so I don't have the invoice at hand. But the only info about the ECU on the invoice is the text I wrote in my first post. On the same invoice though there's also a post which says something like "kupplung umgerüstet, von RS für zweimassenschwungrad" (this is from my memory). But that's all there is. The total amount on the invoice is 3.500 DM. That's all paperwork I have. During theese years the car was serviced at Kremer racing in Köln, so every invoice is from them except this one. I don't know if this other company did the work or just supplied the parts.

To this I can ad that two people who has drviven my says it goes better than theirs 964s. Also on trackdays I can see that I easy keep up with RS cars on the straights. But this doesn't have to mean anything, due to many other factors like exit speed etc. My car also has a cup-pipe and a cut-open airbox done by Kremer. I also believe that the rev-limiter cuts in at maybe 7100 rpm, definitely over 7000 at least. But I always thought that maybe the rpm-gauge wasn't that exact.

What more info can I provide you with? Is it any idea to contact Roock, or the workshop? Then invoice is from june -98 so it's been a while.

Also Adrian, if there are clutch parts from the RS models, which parts fits in the C2 with the DMF? The RS touring does use the same cluth as the C2, doesn't it? Good to know next time it's time change the clutch.

Adrian

Dear Thomas,
I cannot comment 100% until I see an invoice. You would need to contact Kremer. These little snippets are somewhat hard to understand. Kupplung is a clutch.
Yes the touring RS clutch plate fits. The difference is that the C2 has the clutch lining material rivetted and the touring has it glued.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

PS: A standard RS spring centred clutch plate cannot be used with a DMF.

ThomasC2

The invoice doesn't say more than this except name, address etc. I'll check tonight and see if there is anything more, maybe the company name will tell you something. I also try to send a mail to Kremer.

Phil Raby

Of course, an invoice doesn't necessarily mean your car still has a Roock ECU - it could have been changed back to the original!

Cheers

ThomasC2

That's true Phil. But as Adrian says, they can also reprogram the ECU with no logos, and the rev limiter is cutting later than stock. And why would anyone change back to a stock ECU? The second hand market can't be that big. I don't think I would by a second hand ECU if I really didn't trust the seller. But what do I know...I just want to find out what's in my car

Thanks for another good issue by the way!

Lorenfb

The label MUST be removed to erase the chip for reprogramming.
The chips are EPROMs and not Flash devices which can be electrically
erased. Additionally, the chip must be removed to program it, not like
the later DMEs which be reprogrammed in the car.

The label can NOT be easily removed and replaced without affecting
the appearance of the label. The Bosch labels get distorted once removed.

With regard to the rev limit, as I commented on another post; The accuracy of
your tach is not that great, i.e. 7100 versus 7000 is less than 1.5% error.
This is beyond the accuracy of most tachs. Get it calibrated at 7000 and then
determine the rev limit point.

So, you probably have a stock Bosch/Porsche chip.

Good Luck
Loren

Adrian

Dear Loren.
I totally agree with you. However how many people actually know what a genuine Bosch chip label looks like. The chip I have from Roock has no label at all just the chip series number. I have seen many of these some of which were programmed others not. Many with new labels. Some with and some without any reference to Porsche.
My point with the data from Thomas is that without seeing the whole invoice I cannot tell if his 964 has been upgraded or returned to standard. The posted German snippets can be translated either way.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

ThomasC2

A short update. I took apart the ECU again to take a new look on the sticker and I belive it's the stock label compared to another label on another chip on the board....BUT it is clearly scratched and bent (I would say made by a finger nail etc) in one end and it come of very, very easy without destroying the label. I could easy put it back with no more damage and it sticks in place. So maybe your're right Adrian.

I'll tried to take pictures of the invoice and the chip, but they are not very clear because I used my mobile-phone camera while my digital camera is broken for the moment. If it's OK Adrian, I can maybe fax you the invoice tomorrow. The companys name on the invoice is Pro Motor in Freudenberg if you, or someone else, ever heard of them. I also sent a mail to Kremer, will see if they answer.

Thanks,

Lorenfb

Since the label appears to have been PREVIOUSLY removed,
all bets are off as to whether the chip was reprogrammed.
A perfect & untouched label was key. Now flip a coin.

Good Luck
Loren

ianw

Re above, recently bought an 89 C4, my ECU had obviously been removed before (nuts missong/loose.)
OPened to see if looked like a re-chip, and found the PROM IC (the removable one) has same label type and number as the larger non proframmable one. CHip NOs. are 1267 365 344, both have a blue dot on the lable.

Any info if are orignal? ALtho guess PROM could have been reprogrammed, however current trend to just refit a power chip makes me wonder.

Adrian

Dear Ian,
The coloured dot system is the Bosch identification system. It means that the chips are quite possibly original but the contents who knows.
I suspect that the originals have been reinstalled for resale but that is purely a guess. I have never seen or driven your C4 to be able to tell anything.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4