HDA

Why are values of 964 in the ROW much higher vs. US if there are 5x more cars in ROW than US?

cobalt

Your guess is as good as mine. Although when you consider 5 times the cars spread out over how many countries 16 or more it might be a factor. I believe the US was one of if not the largest single country market for these cars. So although there are very few in the US i would assume that less went to each individual country that comprises the ROW market.

The other thought is they appreciate these cars more than we do?

tfitch03

There is a interesting portion in this article about classic car values.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...y-asset-market

kreeshp

I agree we all should be skeptical of everything we read online. The source cited by Wikipedia for those numbers is: "All figures from: Eberhard Kittler: Deutsche Autos seit 1990, vol. 6. Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart 2001, ISBN 3-613-02052-1, p. 353."

Who or what is the source of your numbers?

If they are credible, Wikipedia is operated by people like you and me who are passionate about publishing the truth and they ought to be contacted with the "correct" numbers so that the record is set straight.

cobalt

A number of years back after Adrian released his book on the 964 I went back and forth with him regarding quantities made. There is a lot of info that is not covered in most counting's. There are numerous M718 vin code changes made for the US which changes a year code change for many models. most of these cars are double counted and were never considered in the past. The info I uncovered resulted in Adrian releasing a supplement to his book and later a full revision but his numbers were still not 100% accurate.

the rest of my numbers come from Norbert Franz and help he provided me a number of years back. The turbo, TL and other numbers come directly from his website TL registry and book released by Gabriel and Franz "Porsche 911 turbo Air-cooled years 1975-1998". Their work is the most up to date information there is. Clearly these numbers posted on Wikipedia are incorrect for many of the models and incomplete. There is no mention of the 3.8RS/RSR. The turbo numbers are incorrect along with the TL and TL cab models which they have clearly defined the numbers vins etc in the registry.

My US number were taken from years of review and access to a Porsche database supplied by someone I can't name that I was able to access vin info but focused on last and first vin numbers mostly. Adrian and others all made the mistake of including Vin Numbers 001 through 060 when all US Vin's begin with 061. This is a commonality to all Porsche's from this era and can be corroborated with the 968 and 928 registries which also show accurate information and have all vins listed all begining with 061.

As I mentioned info from 2001 is all suspect at this point since so much has been learned since.

As i said my numbers are plus or minus a few here and there. But far closer to the numbers posted. I am working on getting full data for these cars including options, colors manual vs tip, C2 vs C4 etc. Something we have been trying to find out for a long time. When I finally have the info I am expecting I will be happy to make changes but i don't want to submit the info until I have confirmed 100% accuracy.

This is a large amount of work to accomplish but I hope to do it justice. Meanwhile I can verify all US numbers it is the ROW I need to review more closely to see if their are any quirks like the US market.

Another point that can be proven incorrect is the 911 anniversary or C4 TL (jubilee) it was initially stated that 911 were to be produced when in fact if you review Norbert's numbers 1,085 were actually produced plus the 267 US spec C4WB as we call it for a total of 1352.

They also have listed a 964 C2 cab turbo look.

So you don't have to accept my numbers but we can easily show that the numbers posted are inaccurate in many ways.

Nostrathomas

Sure you probably overpaid, but at the end of the day, you’ve still had over a decade of fun in your dream car. How many people can say that?

I generally find that the less I read up about the values of our cars, or even compare them to what others have, the more I enjoy the damn thing. My 964 is not the most unique color (guards red), it’s not the desired year range (1990), it’s not super low mileage (160K KMs), and it’s definitely no RS or Turbo. It’s not going to win a Concourse or be part of some Petrolicious feature. But it's a manual C2 in really solid shape that makes me happy whenever I drive it.

Btw, while I agree with your point of not buying without research, I too bought my 964 on a whim. The 3.2 was the 911 I fell in love with as a child, and the 993 was the one I ached for since I was a teenager. The 964 wasn’t on my radar…I wasn’t a fan of the integrated bumpers, and the *** was no where near as sexy as the generations that came directly before or after it. But when a nice 964 came up for sale on the local PCA forum 3 years ago, and they were asking $20K CAD ($15 USD), something clicked and I just couldn’t say no. I was smart enough to do a PPI, but dived in without too much research. I’m glad too, because I probably would’ve over-analyzed the car till someone else came in and bought it.

Is it my dream 911? No, that’s still an Arena Red 993 Turbo (that I’ll never be able to afford)…but honestly, I’m just happy to be able to enjoy an air-cooled 911. Whether it’s worth $40k now or goes back to being the redheaded step child of 911s, it was the best car decision I’ve ever made.

Dr Mitch

Nostrathomas, you hit the nail on the head - it's about the enjoyment (assuming you didn't purchase it for it's utility!). Even at $45K - what else would you have purchased for that price that
1. is as much fun to drive
2. has maintained it's value so well
I think prices will slowly continue to creep up - nothing staggering, and would be surprised if an everyday run of the mill 964 is worth 80 grand - but who knows - it's a solid investment as far as a daily mode of transportation goes.

salty87

Very interesting stuff, guys. The history is fascinating. This is a pretty detailed recap of the 964 along with some good pics. I'm too cheap to pay the subscription to see all the pics but I'm sure they're great.

https://www.stuttcars.com/porsche-models/911/964/

I fall in the camp of buying a model I didn't expect. Graduating high school in the 80's those 911s were my favorite. Something about the 964 grabbed me. Guards red, Cab, 1990...strike 3? Heck no. I had no idea at the time but my VIN is 0075. After reading what's been shared about 0-60 that makes it the 15th C2 off the line and one of the first Cabs. That works for me and mine will be sporting the elephant ears with pride.

CP_964

Thanks Cobalt! Good to know that you are working on these details to get as accurate as possible.
Let us know if you need a hand in crunching these data, I am sure we can help.

canuck964

Wise words.

canuck964

Are you back on the road again with basically a new 964 !!!!!!!

cobalt

It is very interesting and a continuous learning curve. It just dawned on me that the 25 US Cup cars were imported as stock C2 coupes and from what I have been reviewing shows that most sources double count these. So in fact we are down from what was originally considered 715 to 655 and now if these were in fact double counted only 630 1992 MY stock 964's imported for that year. It will be interesting to find out if this is the case for the ROW CUP cars as well.

It does make your head spin at times and I will most likely need to recruit some help and most importantly additional sets of eyes to verify numbers as it is easy to make mistakes and overlook things like this.

Dr Mitch

Almost - supposed to be ready this afternoon - but I may not be able to get there today!!! May have to wait until tomorrow morning. This is killing me...

pu911rsr

[QUOTE=cobalt;14212582]It is very interesting and a continuous learning curve. It just dawned on me that the 25 US Cup cars were imported as stock C2 coupes and from what I have been reviewing shows that most sources double count these. So in fact we are down from what was originally considered 715 to 655 and now if these were in fact double counted only 630 1992 MY stock 964's imported for that year. It will be interesting to find out if this is the case for the ROW CUP cars as well.

Actually there were 45 cups imported and 25 converted to race cars and then back to street trim. 4 had there engines dyno'ed and sealed and 16 were never touched.

Phil

canuck964

That first drive will confirm you made the right decision ........ if you even have any doubts now.