993PET

Hi:

I'm a refugee from the 993 BB, I currently own a 97' 993 Coupe that I've converted into an RS Clone with all factory parts.

I'm considering buying a 92' 964 Andial Cup Car that is for sale at a local dealer, the car has 3k miles on it VIN WP0AB2961NS420573. The asking price is $89k.

Could any current or past 964 Cup Car owners give me an idea of the fair value for this car, also if anyone knows the history of this particular chassis that would be great.

TIA

993PET

clubrcr

993Pet:

I have one. I think its a wonderful car. I had it for sale and all I can say is; I wished I could have soldl mine for $89K. Even with 3K miles, the dealer is high on the price based on the market.

Depending on what you are looking for, I might be able to help you. There are a couple of US Carrera Cups out there that are lower priced than $89K.

Are you going to race it or is this just going to be a street car for you?

Let me know if I can help.

Jim Michaels

TIA:

Since there are only 45 of these cars, it would be very difficult to establish a very reliable fair market value for them, but that asking price is almost identical to the asking price for one at G&W Motorwerkes (www.gandw.com) in Waynesboro, Virginia. The G&W car has 200 miles on it and is "perfect." About 5 years ago, I saw one advertised for $65k, but I don't recall the history or mileage on that one. The first one I saw for sale in 1993 was for $100k as I recall.

I'm not sure what you mean by Andial Cup Car; do you mean that the car was re-done to Carrera Cup USA specs by Andial some time after it was returned to OE configuration? Apparently, even those initially modified for the series by Andial were all returned to OE form before being offered for sale by dealers. But once sold, the new owner could opt to have the car modified to Cup USA specs at Andial, G&W Motorwerkes, or Gunnar Racing. That conversion involved 31 steps, including stiffer springs and shocks, wider wheels, straight pipe exhaust, Matter roll cage, removal of some interior stuff, Momo steering wheel, and hood pins.

I've long thought that the Cup USA car would be very right for me without the full race prep, but their prices have always been higher than I've been willing to pay. I bought a white RSA at less than half the price instead. But if you want something rare, and a piece of history that never happened ....

9caregiver

The serial number of the car that you have found was not one of the 25 converted/unconverted cars at Andial according to the copy of the control list. If the car is still in street trim and that is how you want it this could be a good thing. If the car is in correct track trim now then it really does not matter.

Last year I sold my Cup USA cars. I had two. The better of the two was in EXACT race spec with about 3,000 miles. (photo at http://www.porsport.com) The conversion process runs $25,000+ to bring to factory race spec. My car was not $89,000! In my opinion I would range a street version $55,000 to $60,000 and a Race version to $60,000-$75,000 depending on miles, previous damage and workmanship of the conversion. Many of these cars were converted to race cars and were not done as was originally planned for the Cup USA i.e. different rollcages, big engine mods, updated bodywork, ect. If the mods can not be easily reversed or corrected to the original race spec. I would value those cars less. While these cars are unique and different in alot of little ways, I have to agree with Jim that the RSA with a few modifications compared to a street Cup USA will give more bang for the buck, as a street car. A fully and correctly prepared car as I had does not compare. The conversion really makes them a different car. Good luck with the hunt.

Best,

Don

clubrcr

Although I am not trying to start a war here, but I have heard that RSA would be a "better bang for your buck" many times. I guess I would agree with that if you were looking for a street car that found its way to the track a few times a year. But if you wanted a "stock" car that can be driven on the street and didn't want to spend alot of money to make it competitive in PCA racing's "D" class, then the US Carrera Cup is a the best use of your money.

I have raced my Carrera Cup in several PCA races. I have spent no money on my car except for exhaust and the 17" turbo wheels. The car is fast, out of the box. Trying to modify a RSA to be as quick as a Cup without being bumped up to "C" is very hard.

I also would like to add, that spending the money on a good Cup, should be a better deal for resale. The RSAs are great cars but do not fall in the limited production category like the Cups.

993Pet, shop around and find the best car you can afford. If you are going to use the car for a competitive racecar, spend the extra money and buy a Cup. There still are great cars out there. If you want a dual purpose daily driver, buy a RSA.

One last thing, if you do buy a Cup, be careful that you don't buy one that has been highly modified, ie. drivetrain, bodywork etc. You might not be able to race it as a stock car.

JMHO.

Cupcar#12

I have the control list posed at http://www.lynchracing.com/cups/cupmain.htm
This has Articles by a few Rennlist members with Carrera Cup USA editions

IMHO - 89K is OK if and only if the car is a 0 mile car - a 3K mile car should be in the low to mid 60's (i am helping another perspective buyer out with one in this range right now- i'm not selling or recieving anything for this BTW)
Weldon's car was a les than 200 mile car which was in every way Perfect and a sure winner at a national level councourse.
If this car has ever seen a track surface (which msot of them have cause they are great on track) then mid to low 60's is correct - at least right now.
I love my 92 Cup car on the track - so much so that i wrecked it, but that is another story.
I'm with Cupcr on this one - if you are going to race it shop around and start with a cup car - you can do everything like a cup car to an RSA but it will never be the same - it's the little stuff like seam welding, Racing ABS, etc that make the differance in a race car.
if you are going to keep it as an investment you need a 0 mile councourse car

993PET

Thank you all for your extensive knowledge on this fascinating part of Porsche history. From the control list at the link that cupcar #12 provided it appears that the car I'm interested in (WP0AB2961NS420573) is one of the 4 parts cars that were only partially converted at Andial.

From what I could find out this afternoon it is in original condition seldom driven, properly stored and has never seen the track. It is completely in original street trim as delivered.

I'm not interested in the car for show purposes, rather occasional street use, 10/15 DE weekends per year and maybe PCA club racing when I'm comfortable with the car.

So I'm hearing the car is worth somewhere around 60k if it checks out on a PPI?

JF

Adrian

Does it come with a rear engine cover? Sorry I just could not resist the temptation.
Oh by the way when Cup car owners get some miles on them maybe they could report back the valve guide wear at the next engine rebuild. Whilst this may sort of sound a little rude we have been comparing converted race cars with super low mileage to normal road cars most of which are in the 50-100,000 plus mileage bracket which is clearly not a comparison at all.
Good luck with your purchase and if you are looking for a genuine limited edition model with a provenance then a low mileage Cup car from the original 45 delivered to the USA would certainly be a good way to go. With or without rear engine cover because obviously they are not used much.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

clubrcr

993PET.

Also, understand that you will have to spend some money on the car if you plan to race it. For example, when the cars were sold as street cars, they were sold with smaller wheels than what was run on the Cup series. If you plan on running the wider ones, you need to extend the wheel studs. You also need to buy the saftey equipment.

If it were me, I wouldn't buy a garage queen to take to DEs. You are paying a premium for a car that you will eventually have rock chips and normal track wear. When you go to resale it, some people might "frown" on the fact the you had it on the track. So you would have paid a premium for a car that, when you sell it, you might not get that premium back.

As I stated earlier, use your resources and shop the market. Talk to people like Cupcar12 and myself. Usually people that own these Cups know others that have them as well.

I know that Cupcar12 had started a list of who owned what VIN.

Cupcar#12

I'm working on a list - but it is taking some time (Damn work thing) - i am hoping to get a copy of the Andial cut list (which listed each car and it's exact modifications and finish order) as well as a more detailed list of cars sold through G&W throughout the years (10?+ of the series have been sold there at one time or another), a list of the known destroyed cars, and a list of the cars that were converted to Full RSR specs (at least 5 that i know of) durring the G&W Fall Fling at VIR.
Should be fun driving an RSR as well...

Adrian - My car Has 25,000 miles on it at present (however that will remain static for a few years) and i can report no unusal problems with the valve guides was spotted when we last pulled the motor out of the car (about 2 months prior to my off track excursion). we were checking the clutch disc for wear actaully and did a through investigation of the motor while it was out of the car.
I've put about 5K of those miles on it at track events - never had a problem at the events -
On the One lap (total 6K highway miles and 2+ track events everyday for a week) i burned 0.5 quarts of oil - not too bad....
our only mechanical probem came from the optima battery shorting out the kill switch (it's too tall for the car - since the kill switch is mounted directly over the battery) & the mitzen valve's sticking open because i forgot to reinstall several flaps in the dash which create the pressure to close the valves (i think). we simiply disconnected the heater hose in the passanger foot well and shoved a sock in it (with some duct tape) to close the Valves.

Just let us know if you need help with these cars.
And if there are any other owners lurking out there - please send me a mail i would like to know about the car for the records.

9caregiver

Rob,

I have the original Andial control list as well as some other info. There was a listing at one point that accounted for 33 of the 45 cars. E mail me and I can arrange to get you copies of what I have.

Best,

Don

993PET

Rob, Don & Jim:

Is there any significance to the 4 parts cars beyond what has already been written? Since the car I'm interested in is one of those according to the control list.

TIA

JF

Cupcar

My list shows that car serial number 573 was a parts car.

The 45 cars that originally arrived in the USA were European RS cars that were VINed as USA cars and as such had the necessary things for DOT and EPA certification as well as some other changes that made them more suitable to convert to racing specification.

Of these 45 total, 25 were converted to full "race spec", 4 were converted to "parts spec" by Andial in California. The remaining 16 were untouched by Andial and remained at the port in Charleston, S.C.

The "parts spec" cars were to travel with the Carrera Cup series to have parts pirated from them as necessary for use on the series cars.

The only modifications to the "parts spec" cars were:

1) Engine was dyno tested and sealed with wire and stamped lead seals at the chain housing covers
2) Straight through exhaust installed
3) Modified air cleaner housing fitted
4) Racing type clutch disc installed

Before sale of the parts cars, numbers 2,3 &4 above were returned to stock by Andial.

The car should have the anti-tamper wires and seals still on the chain housing covers though if engine has not be opened.

To convert an RSA to the identical spec of a Cup as it came to the USA would cost around $25,000 and to further convert to full race spec would cost even more, another $20,000 or so.

993PET

Update:

I heard from a reliable source today that the car I'm interested in has not had the oil changed in 3 years and has had a battery acid spill in the front compartment. Also the owner won't move off 89k.

I think it's time to look elsewhere, I'm really more interested in a car that is somewhat ready for the track.

993pet

Cupcar#12

I think the biggest thing there is the Price - Chances are, are that the car is never driven and will need to be gon through - but then again mine only had 500 miles on it when i bought it in 1999.

Adrian i have a rear cover - just don't use it - it looks like it is vented - not sure if the normal 964's were like that (my last one did not have a cover)